Goodyear, AZ (EMR) O/B Pool Deliberations - UPDATE - Pool is Filled!

[thewolf56]

UPDATE 1-24-2022:
Excavation completed in 1 day!

UPDATE 1-4-2022:
Excavation scheduled for 01-24-22!

UPDATE 11-17-2021:
Received city permits and HOA approval. Started receiving bids from trades.

Final actual plan (shorter shallow-end bench than the 3-D picture below).


Pretty close to final plan design


UPDATE 09-27-2021:
Design updated and ready for our approval!

Goodyear, AZ (EMR) O/B Pool Deliberations - UPDATE - Pool is Filled!

Our Baja step is 15". Our last one was 18". While it was great for my son to play in, it was a tad too deep to sit in. I like this depth. We have the plastic Adirondack chairs from Lowe's and I think they work great on there. My bum is in the water and I put my feet on a pool noodle. And sitting...

www.troublefreepool.com

UPDATE 08-06-2021:

We had our appointment with our pool consultant a few weeks ago and he was very receptive to our wants and will be incorporating quite a few things that we learned from TFP that are not things most customers request (he was the first industry member we met with that did not scoff at wanting to use soft water for the autofill).

We received the video link of our design and while there are a few things I had not thought of originally, I think I like this version quite a bit. I would love to hear feedback. One thing I will probably add is another ledge along the wall across from the baja ledge and also need to figure out where I would want to put basketball hoop anchors.

Thanks!

Pool Design Video


Original Post 05-17-2021
Hello. Long-time reader, first time poster (and I was really hoping for something much more exciting than this for a first post).

After much deliberation, my wife and I have decided to build a pool for our family. We had received a couple of quotes 2 years ago and started getting quotes again for a pool build. Out of 6 companies, I contacted, only 2 have actually contacted me outside of a canned response (in 8 weeks) and those 2 actually came out to my house to measure for a design. One guy spent less than 20 minutes, and the other guy spent about an hour. Only one company actually sent a quote (the one that actually spent time listening) and while the design is pretty spot-on to what I wanted, the sticker-shock to a fairly apples to apples comparison from less than 2 years ago was a little eye opening.

Because of this forum, I had been leaning towards an owner build for quite a while and unfortunately, the inability for most companies (small and large) to actually respond is further moving me towards that route. AZ has statutes that address payment schedules for pool construction now, and final payment is required prior to plastering, so that does not sit well with me. Add in the sticker shock, and I am almost 100% on board with that route.

I am looking to use a consultant for the build (similar to BYOP), but actually does on-site inspections as part of the package. Everyone here has been a great resource for other builds I've followed, and I have quite a set of reference links available for each stage of the pool build. I have made quite a list of items I want in a pool and have dabbled with Pool Studio in order to give designers a really good idea of what I want (I think this was actually off-putting to a couple of builders).

One of the starting questions I have is regarding In-floor cleaners vs robots (Maytronics type). I had originally asked for the contract to remove the IFC design, but now am second-guessing myself. Father-in-law had said he would just use his robot if doing it again, but now that his IFC is fixed, he likes it better now... I live on the edge of the desert, so fine dust is inevitably going to be in the pool.

• Pros to IFC
  • Seems to work well with AZ fine dust
  • Resale of pool
  • Do not have to put a robot into the pool everyday
• Cons to IFC
  • Expensive up-front cost
  • Higher electricity cost
  • More noise due to higher pump speed
  • More chances for leaks
  • Cleaning heads have a propensity to jam and break
  • If system is designed with no returns, no circulation or chlorination (planned SWG)

Have I missed anything on that topic? I'll need to figure that step out first so I can hurry up and wait...

Here's a picture of my yard and a couple of my trial designs.

 

[Nikilyn]

I like your design. It looks a lot like ours but without the spa and we don’t have a slide. You have a good size yard too. We had an IFC with our last pool but decided against it this time and went with a robot. I kind of wish we had it. It would be nice to not think about having to turn it on or take it out of the pool. I also don’t really like seeing it in the pool. But, we mainly went with it for cost reasons. We did O/B. Our consultant didn’t try to persuade us one way or another but found our plumber recommends in floor on the Baja step and benches when you have a robot. I really wish we had done that but it was still a matter of cost. Our old IFC had a dead spot that I didn’t like but our robot always seems to miss some spots too.
I highly recommend going o/b. I would really hate to be reliant on hearing from a PB. I also think it’s good to have a consultant too. Their small fee is worth their help.

 

[thewolf56]

Thanks @Nikilyn It's just my thoughts for what we want right now, but the slide/grotto/waterfall is not set in stone (excuse the pun), yet.

Your build was one of the more recent ones I have followed, so I appreciate the insight. It seems that people in AZ are more likely to like their IFC than in other states. I'm hoping I get a few more comments with experiences like yours (with and without it), but if I do go down that route, I think I want to make sure that there are bypasses available for returns.

 

[Nikilyn]

We love our waterfall. The kids jump off it and I love the sound the look. Wish we had been able to fit a slide in but we got the spa instead.

 

[pjt]

I had an IFC in my previous pool and have a robot in my current pool. Robot is vastly superior. It's no contest.

 

[chiefwej]

I have had pressure side, vacuum and now a Dolphin robot cleaner. My current pool was built with an IFC system. After years of disappointing results from the in floor system I switched to a Dolphin. My friend has the same system in his pool and loves it. The only real difference between the two pools in the bottom profile. My pool is a play/sport pool with a relatively flat bottom. His has a deep diving well. With a flat bottom, it just blows dirt around. If it winds up at the drain it just by accident. With a deep well the pop ups keep debris moving until it slide down to the drain at the bottom of the well.
If I started out with a robot vs the IFC I could have saved $$ thousands, and would have been much happier.

 

[thewolf56]

Thanks, everyone. Just signed my agreement without the IFC. I had been leaning that way for a while, but I know it's something I can't change my mind on half-way through. The initial cost is definitely a factor with us as well, especially because the waterslide was not in my initial design parameters... So adding on an additional 5k to 11k would means something else would probably need to be cut (going off of pool builder quote). With the depth profile I am looking at, there is no steep slope to a deep well, so from previous reading, that well seemed to be very helpful to the IFC effectiveness. My 7-year old would love a diving pool, but my 2-year old I think will be happy splashing around in the baja ledge. But, because of building timelines, they will be 8 and 3 when this is finished, and my oldest was swimming without assistance by 3..., so trying to plan for a pool and yard that will accommodate most stages of childhood.

Here are my notes I have for the design I want. Please let me know if there is anything else I should add.

Some of the ideas we had for a pool were:

• Approximately 90' perimeter
• Would like a decent swim lane
• Baja lounge (large enough for 2 chaise plus umbrella)
• color LED bubbler in baja lounge (maybe)
• 4' to 6' depth (waterline)
• Grotto with bench in pool to shade from sunlight (in top left corner of lot plan)
• raised bond beam along long side of wall
  • stacked stone veneer
• Waterline tile - 6"x6" bluish (Maybe like the CRL-Blue or CRL-Rustic)
• step and bench edgeline tile - 1"x1" glass tile (lightwaves blue?)
• volleyball sleeves, umbrella sleeves, and basketball hoop sleeves
• pebbletech finish (more tropical blue color than mountain lake blue) with glass beads (and possibly abalone shells)
• color led lights in pool (multiple niche-less LEDs instead of single large)
• Pentair Intellicenter
• may want hot/cold heat pump
• coping - light-colored travertine
• Deck - light-colored travertine (will extend and overlay existing patio with pavers (either travertine or cambridge non-tumbled bella blend to match driveway and front entry)
  • Only want decking on side towards house/yard
• want salt system
• Leaning towards not having In-Floor Cleaning System.
• Do not want Ozone
• Want dedicated suction line (for manual vacuuming, not for pool cleaner)
• Home-run lines for return lines
• Possibly a rail by the baja ledge for easier entry (I'll be in my 50s when my youngest graduates high school), so trying to think ahead.

Additional notes

• A/C is on 9' side yard. A/C is closer to back of house than indicated on lot plan (about 3 feet from back of house).
• Would like pool equipment on A/C side of yard
• electrical is on A/C side of yard
• Gas is on A/C side of yard
• 12' side yard only has 4' gate
• hose bib is available on back left corner (9' side of house, but is on the rear wall of house)
• Want pool on left side of yard and would use a mesh fence from house to rear wall to basically keep a safe area for kids and dogs from the rear doors at covered patio
• 95% chance that this is a hard dig (please quote with a hard dig). 4 houses on my cul-de-sac have a pool and all had hard digs
• HOA and city require 5' waterline setbacks

I've thought about 2 skimmers, but could not see where to put a second one. I've checked prevailing winds on websites and they seem to be all over the place where I'm located.

Am I missing anything to bring up at the onset? I have soft water, but I need to check if the hose bib I mentioned is plumbed for hard or soft water. Water here is very hard (harder than water I have had living in different areas around the Phoenix valley). Also, I know this consultant is a big proponent of UV and Ozone, but I know already to waive those.

Once again, thanks for all of the information. This forum is a great resource and I do plan on becoming a supporter very soon.

 

[Nikilyn]

You might want to price out changing the gate on the larger side to a double to get a bigger digger. That’s what we did.

 

[chiefwej]

When they built our pool they just took the wall down, then put it back after.

 

[thewolf56]

Thanks for the advice. The plan is to knock down the wall and one of the gate pilasters as it's just not quite wide enough to fit the truck back there. Unfortunately, the HOA has not approved any RV gates in my immediate neighborhood, so knocking down the wall is the only option.

 

[chiefwej]

They used an excavator and a bobcat that both fit through a space of less than 5’ between my house and the wall. The pool builder charged a “limited access surcharge“, but it was nominal (less than $2k).

 

[OrlandoBull]

Having used a consultant on my first OB pool, I would just tell you to make sure you know exactly what they are doing. The guy I used was good at sales, but, he was pretty much just like a PB superintendent. He turned it over to the subs he used and that was that. Sure, he helped when their were issues, but, I was still responsible to finding the issues, reporting them to him, etc. The work that I got from his subs was not a top-notch finish either, possibly cheaper than the route I am going this time, but I can tell you that me being more in control this time is leading to a better result. Not that my previous pool was bad, or that I regret it in any way, just telling you to have a clear understanding of what the consultant is doing, and hold them to it.

The flip side of that is that if they have their subs, in this market, that is huge. Doing it alone has left me a little stressed out at times with finding subs that want to do the work. Everyone is so busy and the subs want to keep their big clients happy. A one-off project is not something that they are all interested in. The ones I found have been great and honestly, I have had other subs come in after the previous ones and rave about how good of a job the others did (pavers and electric specifically). Good luck, I'll be following!

 

[thewolf56]

Having used a consultant on my first OB pool, I would just tell you to make sure you know exactly what they are doing. The guy I used was good at sales, but, he was pretty much just like a PB superintendent. He turned it over to the subs he used and that was that. Sure, he helped when their were issues, but, I was still responsible to finding the issues, reporting them to him, etc. The work that I got from his subs was not a top-notch finish either, possibly cheaper than the route I am going this time, but I can tell you that me being more in control this time is leading to a better result. Not that my previous pool was bad, or that I regret it in any way, just telling you to have a clear understanding of what the consultant is doing, and hold them to it.

The flip side of that is that if they have their subs, in this market, that is huge. Doing it alone has left me a little stressed out at times with finding subs that want to do the work. Everyone is so busy and the subs want to keep their big clients happy. A one-off project is not something that they are all interested in. The ones I found have been great and honestly, I have had other subs come in after the previous ones and rave about how good of a job the others did (pavers and electric specifically). Good luck, I'll be following!

Thanks @OrlandoBull With this consultant, we will be selecting and reviewing the bids from the sub-contractors. We can also use our own that we find, friends, family, self, etc. It's a bit of a double-edged sword in that regard. He will perform on-site inspections at key phases, but I have read enough horror stories here to know to go out there and check myself. I'll be doing the scheduling and bid reviews, so that way I am in control of the process.

 

[Nikilyn]

That’s the way ours worked, minus the inspections.

 

[OrlandoBull]

Thanks @OrlandoBull With this consultant, we will be selecting and reviewing the bids from the sub-contractors. We can also use our own that we find, friends, family, self, etc. It's a bit of a double-edged sword in that regard. He will perform on-site inspections at key phases, but I have read enough horror stories here to know to go out there and check myself. I'll be doing the scheduling and bid reviews, so that way I am in control of the process.

Understood, my consultant was in theory the same, but, he never helped me put together anything to get bids from for my own subs, just kind of rolled with his guys. Not trying to put you off of it, it honestly gave me a little security that time and I don't think I would have felt comfortable doing this pool if I hadn't been through it. Just get things in writing and hold him to it. That was more of a me issue than him, things went relatively smoothly, so I didn't force the issue with him coming out and reviewing things.

I have honestly thought about starting a consulting thing on the side locally, I really think my bad experience was due to the person I had. He is no longer in business by the way. A good consultant will save you more money and stress than what you pay them for that service.

 

[thewolf56]

Understood, my consultant was in theory the same, but, he never helped me put together anything to get bids from for my own subs, just kind of rolled with his guys. Not trying to put you off of it, it honestly gave me a little security that time and I don't think I would have felt comfortable doing this pool if I hadn't been through it. Just get things in writing and hold him to it. That was more of a me issue than him, things went relatively smoothly, so I didn't force the issue with him coming out and reviewing things.

I have honestly thought about starting a consulting thing on the side locally, I really think my bad experience was due to the person I had. He is no longer in business by the way. A good consultant will save you more money and stress than what you pay them for that service.

I appreciate the insight. It's a scary road to go through the first time for sure. I'm dealing directly with the owner of the consulting company and I have spent a couple of hours overall with him before I even decided to go with him. Good reviews. Former pool builder and his old company had no complaints on BBB (which does not give consumers the weight they think it gives them), yelp, Facebook, google reviews, or even the state ROC. New company does not have any complaints either. His attitude seems to be that he is working for his client to build the client's pool, even if that is not what he would choose as a builder.

I honestly felt comfortable enough to go at it using this forum's multiple OB threads as pretty good resources, plus having a couple of sub-contractor lists from people that recently did O/B near me, but my wife was more comfortable having someone that could act as backup for information. I'm fine with that. Plus, I know this forum will still be around to answer my questions as they pop up.

Unfortunately, my design appointment isn't until early August... I've had my plans pretty much set for a while but I guess I waited a little too long to launch our plans. Good news is, I'll have time to finish some other projects I had been putting off in the meantime.

 

[Nikilyn]

Does he purchase your equipment for you at wholesale?
Wow! August is a long time away.

 

[thewolf56]

Does he purchase your equipment for you at wholesale?
Wow! August is a long time away.

He will purchase the equipment at wholesale, if I want him too. I can also try to price it out myself if I want to (which I will, but so many places are out of stock of the things I want right now).

I agree that August is a long wait, but his take is that he doesn't want to cut any corners with his clients in order to squeeze more in, and I can respect that. Seeing how much time I spent with him at a home show, on the phone, through emails, texts, etc. before ever signing anything, I am hoping that translates to availability after signature as well. We'll see how I feel a year from now, but right now, I am still happy with that decision.

I think about hiring the consultant in this manner. Thanks to this forum, I was originally planning on going through this completely alone (at least alone locally). As an owner/builder, I want to be deciding everything (design, equipment selection, equipment placement, materials, deck, additional backyard features, etc..). While I had a good idea of what I wanted and what the city, HOA, and code required, I think having the consultant helps alleviate the anxiety of some of the decisions. Decisions that a person in the industry wouldn't question, but someone that has never built a pool before would have plenty of (such as tile before coping, coping before tile, or waterline tile, coping, then edgeline tile, or something like waterfall waterline to lot line setback distance, etc.).

Most importantly, having the consultant with on-site inspections makes my wife feel comfortable in going the owner/build route. It's a small price to pay to have that.

One silver lining about the August consultation date is I now have plenty of time to expand my security camera system, expand my home network, tinker with my home automation setup, decide whether to add an intercom system, outdoor audio, outdoor video, and other tech projects.

 

[thewolf56]

Well, got some good news this weekend. My consultant was able to move my design meeting to the 2nd week of July! So, now I'm losing 3 weeks of additional prep time and the list of non-pool items to prep for keeps growing!

One of the items I need to have completed before the dig is adding to my security camera system. So, I'm using that opportunity to redo some of my ethernet runs inside the house and move my solar monitor off of WiFi, but I also want to prep for any additional low voltage runs that will have to go through the house. So, I'm thinking, I'll need to design for outdoor audio, Cat 6 for pool controller, outdoor video (really want to do movie nights from the pool). Also thinking of adding some Cat 6 outside for some home automation ideas I have.

Does anyone have any ideas for other LV runs I should take into consideration while planning? On the outdoor audio front, I have a set of Klipsch KHO-7s from my last house I may consider adding, but I remember I had the issue of super loud music on the patio, and not very loud at the gazebo. Don't want that issue again, so looking at maybe the Monoprice 2.1 outdoor subwoofer with satellites (maybe 2 sets) around the perimeter of the yard. For the outdoor video, I was thinking of running a fiber-optic HDMI to the eventual projector location, which means running smurf tube inside the house instead of just pulling wire while the design is still not finalized...

 

[thewolf56]

UPDATE 08-06-2021:

We had our appointment with our pool consultant a few weeks ago and he was very receptive to our wants and will be incorporating quite a few things that we learned from TFP that are not things most customers request (he was the first industry member we met with that did not scoff at wanting to use soft water for the autofill).

We received the video link of our design and while there are a few things I had not thought of originally, I think I like this version quite a bit. I would love to hear feedback. One thing I will probably add is another ledge along the wall across from the baja ledge and also need to figure out where I would want to put basketball hoop anchors.

Thanks!

Pool Design Video