Flow light on Intellichlor 40

[Dirk]

I've suggested to McLeod to standarize his logging, including naming the two skimmers for clarity:

Day/Time:
Skimmer (House) Valve:
Skimmer (Yard) Valve:
Filter Valve Setting:
Filter PSI:
FC:
CC:
Pump Readings:
SWG Setting:
SWG Flow Status:

 

[mcleod]

Last night and this morning's readings
August 15, 2022, 8:45 pm
Skimmer (House) Valve: closed
Skimmer (Yard) Valve: Open
Filter Valve Setting: Filter
Filter PSI: 7
FC: 8
CC: 0
Pump Readings: 1950 rpm. 25 gpm. 11psi. 350-53 watts. Water flow into basket is strong. Water level is 3” below the cap.
SWG Setting: 0% output
SWG Flow Status: Green

August 16, 2022, 6:15 am
Skimmer (House) Valve: closed
Skimmer (Yard) Valve: Open
Filter Valve Setting: Filter
Filter PSI: 7
FC: 7
CC: 0
Pump Readings: 1950 rpm. 23 gpm. 11psi. 342-344 watts. Water flow into basket is strong. Water level is 3” below the cap.
SWG Setting: 0% output
SWG Flow Status: Green

Later today I will close the yard side skimmer and open the house side skimmer. Any other suggestions?

 

[mcleod]

Update

August 18, 2022 8:00am
Skimmer (House) Valve: Open
Skimmer (Yard) Valve: Open
FC 7
CC 0
Filter Valve Setting: filter
Filter PSI: 4
Pump Readings: 1750 rpm. 23gpm. 9psi. 250-263watts. Water flows into basket is good. The water level is lower
SWG Setting: Set to 40% output
SWG Flow Status: Green
*first time to have the pump run at this speed (1750 vs. 1950) all night. The water level in the basket is lower. I presume because of the lower rpm.
Today will run with both valves open at this rpm (1750)

 

[Jimrahbe]

Mc,

Just for reference, I set my speed to 1750. At that speed a get a bubble at the top of my pump lid that is about 4" in diameter, but very thin. My bubble is above or even with the top of the pump basket. My filter pressure was 8 PSI and 397 Watts. (My pump is older than yours).

At 1200 RPM, the bubble is about the same, filter pressure is 2 PSI and 168 Watts.

The puzzling part to me is that you say your water is 3" below the top of the top of the pump basket. And you say the water flow into the basket is good? When my pump is running, even using a flashlight, I can't see any water entering my pump basket. Obviously, it is entering the pump basket, but since the basket is full, it is impossible to see it.

The water is clear and if it were not for the bubble at the top, my basket would "look" empty. I cannot see any water movement in the bottom of the basket, where the water enters the impeller area. Visually, it appears that the pump is not running, but of course it is.

If the water level in your pump is 3" down from the top of the basket, then you should be seeing the water entering the pump basket area. This is the part that I do not understand... The basket should fill right up to the top, it should not be 3" down. I can't understand what could cause this?

If this were my pool, I'd be looking at a clogged or damaged impeller or compromised sand in your filter. If you run in the recirculate mode, does the water fill the pump basket?

Let's see if @JamesW has any ideas as to why the water in your basket is 3" low.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[JamesW]

Have videos of the phenomenon.

Pictures and video would help.

 

[Dirk]

If the water level in your pump is 3" down from the top of the basket, then you should be seeing the water entering the pump basket area. This is the part that I do not understand... The basket should fill right up to the top, it should not be 3" down. I can't understand what could cause this?

Exactly where I ended up. In fact, I said almost this exact thing to him yesterday. @mcleod has, at times, described the level of the water in the pump to be at or below the bottom of the inlet port. He can watch the water from the inlet fall into the pump basket! The pump is brand new (well, is supposed to be). Though of course that doesn't rule out it being the culprit.

If not the impeller, doesn't this have to be a suction-side leak? Or one of the pump's o-rings? He was going to attempt to do some leak detection. I've already shared the running hose trick with him, and he was going to try soap or dye as well. I told him I wasn't sure soap would work on a suction leak, but I suppose if he gets soap bubbles in the basket, or coming out of the returns in the pool, that would indicate a leak.

I also suggested he attach a 2" PVC pipe directly to his pump, and run that into his pool (above ground) to completely isolate the entire suction side plumbing from the equation, as a troubleshooting step. A drastic one, but that would determine if the problem is before or after the inlet connection to the pump.

He has also described at times that running his pump's "cleaning mode" temporarily solves the problem. He'll have to give you the details of that. Basically it just ups the pump's RPMs. I thought that might be a clue. Haven't I read here that sometimes suction-side leaks go away temporarily with increased suction? Or was it decreased suction? Could that indicate some sort of weird o-ring issue? I suppose a clog could also react to varying degrees of suction: intermittently seating or unseating itself, in essence becoming more or less of a clog under different flow conditions?

I've encouraged him to keep meticulous logs of everything he tries, to see if he can find a pattern, something re-createable. I'm not sure how well he's doing on that front. Temporarily bypassing the entire suction side plumbing with a run of PVC was the only thing I could come up with to narrow the field.

He could also be experiencing multiple, simultaneous issues, that is fouling the troubleshooting (like more than one suction leak, or a leak and a clog, or a suction leak and a bad IC flow switch, etc). Until the air in the pump is tracked down, he really can't troubleshoot a possible secondary problem, no?

@mcleod, do you have proper o-ring lube?

 

[mcleod]

Pictures and video would help.

Exactly where I ended up. In fact, I said almost this exact thing to him yesterday. @mcleod has, at times, described the level of the water in the pump to be at or below the bottom of the inlet port. He can watch the water from the inlet fall into the pump basket! The pump is brand new (well, is supposed to be). Though of course that doesn't rule out it being the culprit.

If not the impeller, doesn't this have to be a suction-side leak? Or one of the pump's o-rings? He was going to attempt to do some leak detection. I've already shared the running hose trick with him, and he was going to try soap or dye as well. I told him I wasn't sure soap would work on a suction leak, but I suppose if he gets soap bubbles in the basket, or coming out of the returns in the pool, that would indicate a leak.

I also suggested he attach a 2" PVC pipe directly to his pump, and run that into his pool (above ground) to completely isolate the entire suction side plumbing from the equation, as a troubleshooting step. A drastic one, but that would determine if the problem is before or after the inlet connection to the pump.

He has also described at times that running his pump's "cleaning mode" temporarily solves the problem. He'll have to give you the details of that. Basically it just ups the pump's RPMs. I thought that might be a clue. Haven't I read here that sometimes suction-side leaks go away temporarily with increased suction? Or was it decreased suction? Could that indicate some sort of weird o-ring issue? I suppose a clog could also react to varying degrees of suction: intermittently seating or unseating itself, in essence becoming more or less of a clog under different flow conditions?

I've encouraged him to keep meticulous logs of everything he tries, to see if he can find a pattern, something re-createable. I'm not sure how well he's doing on that front. Temporarily bypassing the entire suction side plumbing with a run of PVC was the only thing I could come up with to narrow the field.

He could also be experiencing multiple, simultaneous issues, that is fouling the troubleshooting (like more than one suction leak, or a leak and a clog, or a suction leak and a bad IC flow switch, etc). Until the air in the pump is tracked down, he really can't troubleshoot a possible secondary problem, no?

@mcleod, do you have proper o-ring lube?

August 18, 2022 4:30pm
With much gratitude, let me answer the best I can. A lot of rain is falling, so pics will not be today. I have one video of the water under the clear dome at startup. The file is too large. I'll have to figure out how to send.

Currently, the flow light is green, and the pump is running @ 1750 rpm. These two conditions never coexisted before yesterday. Both skimmer valves are open. The main drain valve is closed. The pump and SWG are in harmony as I write this.

When I back flush the filter, it takes a short time to see clear water run out the hose. I've only done this twice in the 9 months of living here. If there's a consensus on Dirks's idea of a single suction pipe, I will undertake this.

It will be Saturday before I can address the pool again. I will attempt to determine the leak on the suction side, then.

Thanks Mc

 

[mknauss]

I'll have to figure out how to send.

Put videos on YouTube. Then post the link here.

 

[mcleod]

Put videos on YouTube. Then post the link here.

thanks

 

[Jimrahbe]

If there's a consensus on Dirks's idea of a single suction pipe, I will undertake this.

Mc,

If your pump is reasonably close to the pool, then running a pipe between the pump input and the pool is one troubleshooting option. If you still have the problem, then you will know it is not on the suction side. For me it would depend on how much effort it would take to replumb the input to the pump. I'd seen some set-ups where it would be almost impossible to do, and others that would be very easy to do.

Not sure if you have already done this or not, but before I'd run a temporary pipe, I'd want to open all the valves and make sure there is nothing broken or trapped inside them. And I'd replace all the valve O-Rings.

I personally think the problem is on the filter side, but I have been wrong about 100 times just today alone, so it could easily be something else.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Dirk]

Not sure if you have already done this or not, but before I'd run a temporary pipe, I'd want to open all the valves and make sure there is nothing broken or trapped inside them. And I'd replace all the valve O-Rings.

He's got PVC ball valves throughout. I've planted the seed to replace those, with Jandys, as not only a plumbing improvement, but to eliminate the old valves as a troubleshooting step. My "grand plan" was to coordinate that upgrade with the running of the temporary pipe, so that all the steps work in harmony while satisfying some troubleshooting steps along the way.

He could also use that same temporary pipe, depending on the results of trying it out in front of the pump, on the pump's pressure side, to isolate all the plumbing after the pump. Because this problem has been so elusive, I suggested those more drastic steps to better locate the source of the problem: before the pump, the pump, or after the pump.

Hard to say which order is best to do these various steps.

 

[mcleod]

don't shoot me if these links don't work.

(rpm 3450)

(pump running at 3450 to 1550)

 

[mcleod]

Never mind

 

[mcleod]

@Dirk, @Jimrahbe, @mknauss
the recent Texas rains brought the pool level up to uncomfortable levels. I had to drain some water and fast. The filter backwash jumped to mind, and I engaged it. I thought I'd better check the skimmers. The left was clear; the right was full of leaves. I pulled the basket up and was startled when a frog leaped from the basket into the open skimmer. I stared in disbelief as the frog was sucked into the opening. Gone! I ran to the pump and turned it off, unlocked the basket lid, and lifted it. There, half in, half out of the opening, was my frog ( I'd adopted him in the few steps taken to the pump). I jostled the basket, which plopped him into it, allowing me to deposit him on the concrete. Oh! The joy of watching him hop away.

As I put things back together, I recalled Dirk wondering if I had some blockage in any of my suction pipes. I smiled, knowing that I was now certain about one of them. Hmmm. There must be another frog 'round here.

Mc

 

[ajw22]

I pulled the basket up and was startled when a frog leaped from the basket into the open skimmer.

I always turn the pump off before removing the skimmer baskets.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Mc,

Here is a similar "war" story.

I worked F-4E Radar when in the service. When on the ground, to run the radar, you have to hook up a large cooling hose. The other end of the cooling hose is connected to large movable AC unit. We had an aircraft that would go into radar over temp in about five minutes. Where the large hose connects to the aircraft, the hose funnels down to about 3" inches. We assumed the problem was with the radar as it appeared we had plenty of cooling air. Unknow to us, a small rabbit had gotten in the hose, and was plugging it up at the funnel end. When we finally removed the hose from the aircraft, the little frozen rabbit fell out on the ground, and everyone thought it was dead. After about 30 seconds, I bent down to pick it up and it just jumped up and took off like a rocket. Scared the heck out of me..

Thanks for the old memory,

Jim R.

 

[mcleod]

I always turn the pump off before removing the skimmer baskets.

Thank you. I am a young Jedi not fully instructed in the way of the force

 

[Dirk]

As I put things back together, I recalled Dirk wondering if I had some blockage in any of my suction pipes. I smiled, knowing that I was now certain about one of them. Hmmm. There must be another frog 'round here.

 

[mcleod]

@Dirk, @ajw22, @Jimrahbe,@mknauss
The dog days of summer bring chores. This is an update on the intermittent SWG Flow light is red issue.

August 24 2022 4:34pm
Skimmer (House) Valve: Open
Skimmer (Yard) Valve: Open
FC 8
CC 0
Filter Valve Setting: filter
Filter PSI: 4
Pump Readings: 1650 rpm. 22gpm. 8psi. 229 watts.
SWG Setting: Set to 40% output
SWG Flow Status: Green

I’ve run my pool as described for three days with no problem that I noticed. Today at 3:00 pm I noticed the SWG flow light was red. Turned off the pump, emptied out the skimmers, then restarted. It ramped up as it should. I’ve posted a video of the start-up on YouTube here:

 

[Dirk]

Few things:

That last post has all sorts of repeated lines. Maybe you could clean that up.

When you report about the pump, and write: "Water flow into basket is good," that's not what we're looking for. You should report if the pump's basket area is 100% full, with maybe a few minor bubbles just under the lid, or if the final (after priming cycle) water level is some number of inches below the lid. We need to know if there is too much air remaining in the pump or not.

Reviewing that video, that is not how a pump should prime, at all. At startup, the water should very quickly flood the chamber all the way to the top, with perhaps some bubbles churning around. Within a few moments (20-40 seconds or so), virtually all the bubbles should clear out.

On my pump, because of the lid's grid support, the voids just under the surface of the lid trap a few quarter-sized bubbles that never seem to clear, but that's it. Like a thimble or two of air, no more.

I don't know what pump cavitation looks like, but all that air looks to me to be some sort of suction side air leak (which is what I keep harping on). I asked you a while back to troubleshoot the pump's o-rings. That's the place to start.