Ever know of anyone who doesn't like a SWCG pool?

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Rangeball

Well-known member
May 25, 2007
785
crazycanuck said:
SWCG = Salt water Chlorine Generation
BBB = Bleach Borax bicarbonate

salt is a key ingredient to an SWG system, to unfairly deduct that out of the equation when
talking about the benefits is not correct (soft skin, non-stinging eyes) Its funny that when you
talk about the drawbacks (staining, corrosion) it is conventiently put back into the equation. you
can't have it both ways.

Salt is not a integral component to a BBB method.
Thanks for pointing that out. I meant "compared to a properly maintained BBB pool with salt added", and have edited my post to reflect this.

Since the jist of Sean's post seems to imply the their are additional benefits other than just added salt, and my BBB pool has added salt, as a prospective SWG purchaser, I am wondering what they are.
 

crazycanuck

Well-known member
Mar 29, 2007
294
Ontario, Canada
Sorry it wasnt directed at you, it was just a follow up reply to an earlier comment on how salt should be getting the credit for some of the SWG's benefits... which it should! But what I am implying is that it is part of an integeral system which allows the SWG to operate.
 

Poolsean

TFP Expert
Apr 15, 2007
1,462
Ft Lauderdale, Florida
I jump on a plane to Buffalo, and I miss out on all the fun.

Chlorine is chlorine is chlorine. TRUE.
However, the type of chlorine used or rather, suggested to be used is very critical to the conditions of the pool and environment. That is, if you're in Arizona, high in Calcium, the LAST thing you want to use is Cal Hypo. You may not want to use Tri-chlor tablets either, especially with the increasingly high CYA levels over time, that are "blamed" to cause "Chlorine Lock".
If you're dealing with a high CYA condition, you do not want to use Tri-chlor or Di-Chlor as you will be adding MORE Cya.
If you're dealing with constantly high pH levels, you may not want to use Sodium Hypochlorite.

With a Salt System, you're either going to use very little muriatic acid, because your pH is holding more steady than bleach (which it the Theoretical result), or using more acid (which have been brought up by some SWG users).
The net result of a little fluctuation in the pH is less chemicals being used to maintain your water chemistry.

I will admit that a properly maintained BBB pool will result in very good water quality, but you all are not the typical pool owner!!! Unfortunately, the normal pool owner goes into a pool store every weekend, picks up a few gallons of pool store chlorine and acid and dumps it into their pools. OR a Erosion Tablet feeder user will eventually realize what the rate of replacement of tablets is, and get into the habit of refilling their feeder as needed. But then there's the maintenance needed to ensure CYA doesn't get too high.
I'm going to stay away from Maintenance differences for how. (ANY COMMERCIAL POOL OPERATOR WILL KNOW THE AMOUNT OF ATTENTION A TAB FEEDER OR CHEMICAL FEED PUMP NEEDS TO ENSURE THERE ARE NO BRITTLE/BROKEN HOSES, CLOGGED INJECTORS, DAMAGED O-RINGS, ETC)

Why are you all still arguing about this? There are many "typical" pool owners converting to a different method because the "typical" method is not effective! Or there wouldn't be a poolforum or Troublefreepools. Not that there's an easier way to do it, there are alternative methods in maintaining pools.

Heck, ask a new Bacquacil user if they're happy with it and they'll tell you it's the best they've ever seen their pool! Ask them a few years from now and they will tell you how much it cost to fix problems and how much they want to get away from the Baqua product!

Is there anyone here that wants to get rid of their salt system?

So then, I am being asked, what are the unique features of a salt system, that cannot be had with a non salt system treated by traditional chlorine.

It was pointed out that a bbb with salt added or with SWG replacing the first b (swgbb?) can result in the same as having a SWG. OK, let's get rid of the latter option since you are using a SWG. I don't know the benefits of borax as I have never added it to my pool, but I did add a few boxes last weekend after reading the reduced pH demand at 50 ppm. I needed to try this myself!
OK, back on track. If I were to compare a bbb pool to a SWG pool, what are the unique benefits?

First, AND EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS THIS ONE...EASIER MAINTENANCE.
You're not having to store, test, and add as much as with a SWG.
You're not relying on your friend/neighbor/family to add chlorine for you while you're out on vacation.
You're not adding small doses of chemicals to maintain your pool.
A SWG will do this for you.

Second, THE FEEL OF THE WATER IS BETTER!
Simply put, there is an isotonic effect, simply by adding salt to your pool. With our body salinity level at about 9,000 ppm, the added salt in the pool brings your pool water closer to what your body salinity level is. The result is less isotonic effect of your body's salt and the pool water (read more comfortable on the skin and eyes). Without going back and quoting everyone, it was pointed out that a salt pool provides less red eyes, but then again, red eyes can be as a result of high/low pH, combined chlorine, or imbalanced water. Do SWG ensure LESS incidences of high/low pH,combined chlorine, or imbalanced water? YES. Can you get the same result of bbb? YES. Does bbb it take more work, testing, care? YES.
Can your pool "FEEL" the same as a SWG pool? Sure. Just add salt. But, as I said before (but I can't prove this), if it wasn't for SWG, who would have though of adding salt to their pool?
Does a bbb pool "feel" the same as a SWG pool? Not unless they have been doing this for a number of years so that the salt is at least 1000 ppm (according to several members who have added salt to where they can feel the difference, 1000 ppm was the minimal level at which I read they were able to feel the difference)...or they've added salt to their pool.
If you have never swam in a SWG pool, you will not realize the difference a SWG makes.
Is there a GREAT difference? Some so yes, some say it's very little. I've swam in both and I can feel a difference (but then I'm sure I'm percieved as a "LITTLE" biased).

The Water Quality is better!
How can I say that!!??? HERE IT COMES....
If you're not adding bleach, testing water, and adding chemicals every day, what will your pool's water chemistry look like?
A SWG does this for you DAY IN AND DAY OUT. It does not require you to do much, other than test (occasionally, but MUCH less than bbb owners for sure) to ensure your pH is where it should be. There is VERY little fluctuation on Alkalinity, Calcium Hardness and CYA. Can bbb users say this?
Combined chlorine, a very real fact of pool usage, must be controlled or alot of the problems of pool usage is brought up. What does combined chlorine cause? How about the obnoxious odor (MOST noticable with indoor pools), red eyes, respiratory reactions, higher chlorine demand? OK, so you can shock the pool with more bleach to control this. A SWG does this naturally, when the cell is energized! Some may say this falls under "convenience". Well, I can shoot a hog at 300 yrds with a 30.06 or knife it. A 30.06 is more convenient. Please! You have to work to get close to that hog to be able to knife it! With a SWG, you don't have to work so hard to maintain no combined chlorine. It's not just convenience. It's a natural attribute of SWG! To be more technical, and I've mentioned this already, the chlorine level within the cell is extremely high and will shock the CC, all the time. Although the Pool Pilot cell is designed in a manifold assembly, the bypassed water is still being treated with better flow control = more contact time with the "nasties".
Does a bbb user have this same shocking effect when they add their bleach every other day? Adding a gallon of bleach every other day does not shock the water. Period! Maintaining 0 ppm combined chlorine is absolutely necessary for the best water quality. A SWG almost ensures this, without any additional work!
YES, there can be conditions that build up CC faster than a cell will be able to control this. Most SWG have a boost mode that increases chlorine production, but as many willl say, this takes away life from the cell (as minimal as this really is). The prefered method is to shock manually and not use up hours from the cell life.
Whatever, overall cell life is not reduced in any noticable amount of time. ie, one boost mode will reduce cell life 20 hrs (for a pool running 8 hrs/day @ 50% output setting). For a cell rated for 10,000 hrs, 20 hrs is ... (sorry, math is terrible)... 0.002% less life? It'll take 50 boost cycles to reduce cell life 1 %.

I can only tell you the feedback I get from facility managers (remember I deal mostly with commercial pools) in what THEY TELL ME! Call the Hamburg Senior Center in upstate NY. Their employees were getting headaches from smelling the chlorine coming from the pool room (indoor pool but and two rooms (two closed doors) away). After adding our system, they do not have the odors anymore.
Call Silverwood Water Theme Park (Athol, Idaho), who after adding our salt system to their (OK this is a stretch) BUMPER BOAT POND, were finally able to SEE the bottom (no more than 3' deep), after many years of doing things the same way (bleach feeders). This was a huge liablity issue for them as it was SO cloudy that they would "not be able to see a body that fell in the water!" NOTE THE QUOTE!

SeanB has testified that their child is able to swim in their SWG pool for hours, without any reactions to excema conditions. I have heard many reports of parents of asthmatic children who praise SWGs.
Could they have tried bbb? Well, I don't think Ben Powell is able to get into everyone's back yard, much less every commercial pool. Would there have been a difference? I don't know???

Any bbb users able to make this claim?

So what's unique with a SWG?
It does make it easier to maintain your pool. (convenience)
It doesn make the water "feel" better (salt - the idea of adding salt to a pool was most likely brought about as a result of SWGs)
It does ensure better water quality than traditional pool treatments (bbb is not traditional)
It does control Combined Chlorine in most conditions, without extra work (but the boost mode helps to control heavy demand conditions such as parties and weather conditions)
It does reduce fluctuations in water chemistry levels overall (more stable chlorine treatment and less pH fluctuations).

WOW, how much of a salt peddler am I sounding like now?

I need to catch my DELAYED flight on to Buffalo. I will check again after I check into the Hampton.

Happy reading!
 

KurtV

LifeTime Supporter
Mar 29, 2007
270
SE Louisiana
Poolsean said:
I jump on a plane to Buffalo, and I miss out on all the fun.

Chlorine is chlorine is chlorine. TRUE.
...
If you're dealing with constantly high pH levels, you may not want to use Sodium Hypochlorite.

With a Salt System, you're either going to use very little muriatic acid, because your pH is holding more steady than bleach (which it the Theoretical result), or using more acid (which have been brought up by some SWG users).
The net result of a little fluctuation in the pH is less chemicals being used to maintain your water chemistry.
Sean, it's fairly well established, I think, that SWG cause at least as much and probably more pH rise than using bleach. Richard (chemgeek) or Evan (waterbear) can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the overall effect on pH of bleach, throughout its lifecycle in the pool, is slightly basic. SWGs generate hydrogen bubbles which cause carbon outgassing which drives pH up.


...


So then, I am being asked, what are the unique features of a salt system, that cannot be had with a non salt system treated by traditional chlorine.
...
If I were to compare a bbb pool to a SWG pool, what are the unique benefits?

First, AND EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS THIS ONE...EASIER MAINTENANCE.
You're not having to store, test, and add as much as with a SWG. Agreed except that not testing as much could well lead to trouble.
You're not relying on your friend/neighbor/family to add chlorine for you while you're out on vacation. Agreed.
You're not adding small doses of chemicals to maintain your pool.
A SWG will do this for you. Sort of. The only chemical an SWG adds is chlorine so you still have to control pH with acid and you may have to control alkalinity with baking soda or acid and aeration. (This excepts Auto Pilot's Total Control system which also doses acid).

Second, THE FEEL OF THE WATER IS BETTER!
Addressed ad nauseam.
...Without going back and quoting everyone, it was pointed out that a salt pool provides less red eyes, but then again, red eyes can be as a result of high/low pH, combined chlorine, or imbalanced water. Do SWG ensure LESS incidences of high/low pH,combined chlorine, or imbalanced water? YES.
Can you get the same result of bbb? YES. Sorry, if this is true (and it is as proven by me and lots of other folks)the statement right above it can't be. Just a matter of logic.
Does bbb it take more work, testing, care? YES. Agreed
Can your pool "FEEL" the same as a SWG pool? Sure. Just add salt. But, as I said before (but I can't prove this), if it wasn't for SWG, who would have though of adding salt to their pool? If you can't prove it why keep repeating it? Besides that, how is it relevant? Many good ideas rest on the foundations of ideas that went before.

Does a bbb pool "feel" the same as a SWG pool? Not unless they have been doing this for a number of years so that the salt is at least 1000 ppm (according to several members who have added salt to where they can feel the difference, 1000 ppm was the minimal level at which I read they were able to feel the difference)...or they've added salt to their pool.
If you have never swam in a SWG pool, you will not realize the difference a SWG makes.
I've swum in both and I challenge anyone to tell any difference between my water and that in an SWG equipped pool.


The Water Quality is better!
How can I say that!!??? HERE IT COMES....
If you're not adding bleach, testing water, and adding chemicals every day, what will your pool's water chemistry look like?
A SWG does this for you DAY IN AND DAY OUT. It does not require you to do much, other than test (occasionally, but MUCH less than bbb owners for sure) to ensure your pH is where it should be. As I said above and in previous posts, not testing frequently is a bad habit, SWG or not. Yes,you can test a little less but you ought to be checking chlorine and pH at least every 2 or 3 days. If not, how would you know if your SWG wasn't producing chlorine? If you don't think that happens, check out the many threads on just that issue here and at pool forum and at Garden Web's pool forum.

There is VERY little fluctuation on Alkalinity, Calcium Hardness and CYA. Can bbb users say this? Are you trying to say that SWGs control alkalinity and Calcium Hardness? That's simply not true. My calcium hardness never changes from 220 ppm. I've been mucking around with lowering my alkalinity because my negative edge causes constant pH rise but before that it was rock solid. Nothing in bleach affects either of those water chemistry components just as an SWG doesn't.
Combined chlorine, a very real fact of pool usage, must be controlled or alot of the problems of pool usage is brought up. What does combined chlorine cause? How about the obnoxious odor (MOST noticable with indoor pools), red eyes, respiratory reactions, higher chlorine demand? OK, so you can shock the pool with more bleach to control this. A SWG does this naturally, when the cell is energized! Some may say this falls under "convenience".
Well, I can shoot a hog at 300 yrds with a 30.06 or knife it. A 30.06 is more convenient. Please! You have to work to get close to that hog to be able to knife it! With a SWG, you don't have to work so hard to maintain no combined chlorine. It's not just convenience. It's a natural attribute of SWG! To be more technical, and I've mentioned this already, the chlorine level within the cell is extremely high and will shock the CC, all the time. Although the Pool Pilot cell is designed in a manifold assembly, the bypassed water is still being treated with better flow control = more contact time with the "nasties".
Does a bbb user have this same shocking effect when they add their bleach every other day? Adding a gallon of bleach every other day does not shock the water. Period! Maintaining 0 ppm combined chlorine is absolutely necessary for the best water quality. A SWG almost ensures this, without any additional work!
YES, there can be conditions that build up CC faster than a cell will be able to control this. Most SWG have a boost mode that increases chlorine production, but as many willl say, this takes away life from the cell (as minimal as this really is). The prefered method is to shock manually and not use up hours from the cell life.
Sean, as I said in at least a couple of posts, I've never had any measurable combined chlorine in the 20 months or so I've been operating this pool. I'm not saying that I was able to get rid of it by shocking, I'm saying I've never had any. I've never shocked this pool once. I'm not unique in this. Many Ben Powell taught pool owners can make the same claim.

...

WOW, how much of a salt peddler am I sounding like now?
I'll let others judge that.

Happy reading!
 

JasonLion

TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
LifeTime Supporter
May 7, 2007
37,879
Silver Spring, MD
Poolsean said:
With a Salt System, you're either going to use very little muriatic acid, because your pH is holding more steady than bleach (which it the Theoretical result), or using more acid (which have been brought up by some SWG users).
The net result of a little fluctuation in the pH is less chemicals being used to maintain your water chemistry.
The net change in PH when using bleach is very near zero. The PH will rise when you add bleach and then fall by more or less the same amount when the chlorine gets used up. If you add small quantities of bleach continuously you will hardly ever detect any PH changes.

Almost all users of SWG will experience constant increases in PH that need to be compensated with acid from one to seven times a week.

Poolsean said:
A SWG does this for you DAY IN AND DAY OUT. It does not require you to do much, other than test (occasionally, but MUCH less than bbb owners for sure) to ensure your pH is where it should be. There is VERY little fluctuation on Alkalinity, Calcium Hardness and CYA. Can bbb users say this?
You need to test the water exactly as often with a SWG as with BBB. The SWG will automatically put in the same amount of chlorine today as it did yesterday, and the BBB user can do the same if they want. I don't really recommend that in either case. You do need to add bleach nearly every day with BBB, while you can often ignore a SWG for a day or sometimes two or three.

Meanwhile the PH will tend to drift up with a SWG, while it will tend to stay constant with BBB (assuming no water features).

CH and CYA will stay mostly constant with either system.

Alkalinity will tend to drift down with a SWG because of the CO2 out gassing from the hydrogen bubbles constantly raising the PH and the owner constantly adding acid to compensate. There is no alkalinity drift with BBB.

Poolsean said:
Combined chlorine, a very real fact of pool usage, must be controlled or alot of the problems of pool usage is brought up.
A diligent BBB user will never get combined chlorine except for a few days while opening. Those few days of openning will be a problem for the SWG owner as well.

-----

The big differences are purchasing and carrying bleach. BBB will use far more gallons of bleach than a SWG will use of acid. And BBB needs to add bleach every day, while a SWG can typically go a couple of days between acid additions, much longer than that if they are careful about balancing the water and use 50 ppm of borates.

Bleach can be a logistical problem, one that many people won't want to deal with. You get used to it and it doesn't seem like such a big deal, but I sure noticed how nice it was to stop carrying bleach when I got my SWG. Not everyone will be willing to pay the money for a SWG to get this particular convienence. Perhaps as the price continues to come down that will become less of an issue.
 
G

Guest

JasonLion said:
[
The net change in PH when using bleach is very near zero. The PH will rise when you add bleach and then fall by more or less the same amount when the chlorine gets used up. If you add small quantities of bleach continuously you will hardly ever detect any PH changes.

Almost all users of SWG will experience constant increases in PH that need to be compensated with acid from one to seven times a week.

This is not a true statement and depends on part on the suface of the pool and whether there are water features that cause aeration of the water. My pool is fiberglass but I have a spillover spa with bubblers and venturi jets and also have 2 other waterfalls and 2 deck jets so my pool gets a LOT of aeration but my acid usage is about 6 oz every 5 or 6 weeks and my pH stays very stable at 7.6-7.7. I do run my TA low (about 80-90 ppm before stabilizer correction) and do have 50 ppm borates in the water. I have a pump run time of 8 hours a days and my cell output is set to 15% for the summer to maintain a FC of about 5 ppm. Before I added the borates my acid usage was about 24 oz every 2-3 weeks. I have several cusomters with SWGs that bring in water weekly for testing and many of them have much more stable pH and less acid usage than customers that I have using liquid chlorine. I have found that TA is the key here. It is a given that a plaster pool will have more acid usage than a vinyl or fiberglass one since the surface is reactive, whether there is a SWG or not.

You need to test the water exactly as often with a SWG as with BBB. The SWG will automatically put in the same amount of chlorine today as it did yesterday, and the BBB user can do the same if they want. I don't really recommend that in either case. You do need to add bleach nearly every day with BBB, while you can often ignore a SWG for a day or sometimes two or three.
Actually, you can ignore a properly set up salt pool for much longer than a day or three! I see this in my customers who come in weekly for water testing. Many of the pools are very stable and never have problems. The manually chlorinated pools seem to be much more prone to having CC, algae blooms, etc.
Meanwhile the PH will tend to drift up with a SWG, while it will tend to stay constant with BBB (assuming no water features).
I have not found this to be necesssisarily true from the experience with my cusotmers pools.
CH and CYA will stay mostly constant with either system.
Once again this is a generalization that doesn't always hold true. Calcium levels can rise quickly in areas that have hard water and a lot of evaporation. I see this happen in many of my customers pools here in N. FL. Doesn't matter if they manually chlorinate or have a SWG!
Alkalinity will tend to drift down with a SWG because of the CO2 out gassing from the hydrogen bubbles constantly raising the PH and the owner constantly adding acid to compensate. There is no alkalinity drift with BBB.
Once again, not necessisarily true! My TA stays pretty stable as does the TA of many of my custmers. This will depend in part on the TA of the fill water used to top off the pool.


A diligent BBB user will never get combined chlorine except for a few days while opening. Those few days of openning will be a problem for the SWG owner as well.
IF (and it's a big IF) a liquid chlorine user tests his or her water EVERY day and maintains a fairly constant FC level then they probably will not have much CC at all BUT most pool owners are NOT that dilligent and skip a day or two here and there. With a SWG this is not an issue since the chorine is always being added to the pool (as long as the system is operating).
-----

The big differences are purchasing and carrying bleach. BBB will use far more gallons of bleach than a SWG will use of acid. And BBB needs to add bleach every day, while a SWG can typically go a couple of days between acid additions, much longer than that if they are careful about balancing the water and use 50 ppm of borates.
Once again much depends on the pool surface. Many plaster pools are acid eaters even without a SWG and fully cured plaster!
 

KurtV

LifeTime Supporter
Mar 29, 2007
270
SE Louisiana
Evan,
You're comments are, as usual, insightful and relevant. I have a couple of minor disagreements though.

Jason's point about SWGs experiencing pH rise assumes that all other factors are equal. Given that assumption, I think his analysis is true. Ditto the comments about calcium hardness and TA. Do you disagree?

Your point about water testing is true enough assuming everything functions as it should. However, in the rare, but by no means unheard of, event that an SWG stops producing chlorine, how but by testing would you know you had insufficient chlorine. When I finally install an SWG (it's only a matter of time), I think I'll continue to test every day or two.

Finally, regarding your comments about adding bleach every day, that's not exactly the case. Even in the summer, at the height of my pool usage, I only add bleach every other day or so (sometimes more often with heavy use); that seems pretty typical, anecdotally, from the posts I see here and at poolforum.com (I only add bleach once or twice a week in the off-season). I also must admit that I don't always test the water every day. I rarely go more than a couple of days without testing in the summer, but in the off-season I don't test much more than once or twice a week.

I admit that I and many other poolforum and troublefreepool devotees aren't typical, but that's kind of the point. We're trying to do this a better way. That way may may or may not include an SWG but the principles are the same regardless: Facts and solid science only, don't put things in your pool unless you understand what the effects will be, and maintain and operate your pool simply and frugally.

Edit: Here's a post that make my point about testing with an SWG:
Where's the Chlorine?"

Edit: Here's another:
Can't control output.

Edit: And another:
Output all overthe place.

Edit: I wasn't even looking for those; all are from the last couple of hours here and at poolforum.com and just jumped off the screen.
 

JasonLion

TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
LifeTime Supporter
May 7, 2007
37,879
Silver Spring, MD
waterbear said:
JasonLion said:
Almost all users of SWG will experience constant increases in PH that need to be compensated with acid
This is not a true statement and depends on part on the suface of the pool and whether there are water features that cause aeration of the water. . . . I do run my TA low (about 80-90 ppm before stabilizer correction) and do have 50 ppm borates in the water. I have several cusomters with SWGs that bring in water weekly for testing and many of them have much more stable pH and less acid usage than customers that I have using liquid chlorine.
Well you certianly have far more experience than I do, but I suspect there are other reasons we disagree here. First, you clearly put lots of attention and knowledge into keeping your water well balanced and I suspect you help your customers keep their water significantly better balanced than the average pool owner. I think that the average SWG owner will see more PH rise than your average customer will. I have seen groups of SWG owners trading stories about how much acid they pool contantly needs and you don't normally see that for other pool owners (except for new plaster). Tell them to add borates to the pool to reduce acid usage and ears perk up all over. Even Poolsean referred to trying borates to reduce acid usage.

Second, I was speaking from a "all other things being equal" point of view, rather than in absolute terms. Many factors can affect how a pool behaves. I was speaking only of the factors that change between using bleach and a SWG. PH is rarely truly stable, but it doesn't vary significantly because you are using bleach. Many other factors, such as acid rain and reactions with the plaster, can and do change the PH but they affect a SWG pool in exactly the same ways they affect a BBB pool and so I was ignoring them. If what I said is taken in the absolute sense then clearly I was very wrong.

waterbear said:
JasonLion said:
A diligent BBB user will never get combined chlorine except for a few days while opening. Those few days of openning will be a problem for the SWG owner as well.
IF (and it's a big IF) a liquid chlorine user tests his or her water EVERY day and maintains a fairly constant FC level then they probably will not have much CC at all BUT most pool owners are NOT that dilligent and skip a day or two here and there. With a SWG this is not an issue since the chorine is always being added to the pool (as long as the system is operating).
This is an important point that wasn't properly reflected in my post. A SWG is much more forgiving of mistakes. For every person who never misses a single day there will be hundreds of people who do skip taking care of their pool for at least a day per season. Even though you can often get away with missing a day, the average result across many missed days is significantly worse when using BBB then when using a SWG.

I also noticed that Poolsean was talking about indoor pools at one point. Regular BBB depends on sunlight working with FC to eliminate combined chlorine. Plain vanilla BBB won't work without signficant adjustments on indoor pools because of this. A SWG might well help indoor pools deal with CC in ways that are much less important to outdoor pools.
 

Rangeball

Well-known member
May 25, 2007
785
crazycanuck said:
after all this technical banter I think we can still pretty much conclude that 99% of pool
owners who have an SWCG is happy with their units.
And if you are an up to date BBB user with salt added to their pool SWCG is about convenience :)
 

brettc

Active member
Jun 25, 2007
34
Houston
Poolsean said:
With a Salt System, you're either going to use very little muriatic acid, because your pH is holding more steady than bleach (which it the Theoretical result), or using more acid (which have been brought up by some SWG users).
The net result of a little fluctuation in the pH is less chemicals being used to maintain your water chemistry.
My experience is that it's a lot not a little and it's not a little that's required to maintain it.

I will admit that a properly maintained BBB pool will result in very good water quality, but you all are not the typical pool owner!!! Unfortunately, the normal pool owner goes into a pool store every weekend, picks up a few gallons of pool store chlorine and acid and dumps it into their pools. OR a Erosion Tablet feeder user will eventually realize what the rate of replacement of tablets is, and get into the habit of refilling their feeder as needed. But then there's the maintenance needed to ensure CYA doesn't get too high.
My experience is that I've spent a lot of time researching and managing the issues I'm having maintaining my new SWG pool. I can't imagine my experience would have been any different without it.

I'm going to stay away from Maintenance differences for how. (ANY COMMERCIAL POOL OPERATOR WILL KNOW THE AMOUNT OF ATTENTION A TAB FEEDER OR CHEMICAL FEED PUMP NEEDS TO ENSURE THERE ARE NO BRITTLE/BROKEN HOSES, CLOGGED INJECTORS, DAMAGED O-RINGS, ETC)
Daily attention is daily attention isn't it? Can you quantify how many minutes a day I save by having a salt water system? I expect it's none.

Why are you all still arguing about this? There are many "typical" pool owners converting to a different method because the "typical" method is not effective! Or there wouldn't be a poolforum or Troublefreepools. Not that there's an easier way to do it, there are alternative methods in maintaining pools.
My neighbors are converting to salt systems and are demanding salt systems from PBs because they have been misled by marketing hype.

Is there anyone here that wants to get rid of their salt system?
What I'm not hearing here is any discussion of what impact salt will have to my rock work and pool equipment. My pool builder discouraged me from getting the salt system to begin with, and only now is he revealing that this is why.

First, AND EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS THIS ONE...EASIER MAINTENANCE.
You're not having to store, test, and add as much as with a SWG.
You're not relying on your friend/neighbor/family to add chlorine for you while you're out on vacation.
You're not adding small doses of chemicals to maintain your pool.
A SWG will do this for you.
Storage is not the same issue as maintenance. Adding extra volume of chemicals is not a maintenance issue. Whether I add a gallon or a pint doesn't require any extra maintenance. I'm having to add acid on a daily basis. I suspect I may have to augment with bleach on occasion, and I won't be alone in that. With high rain levels and water features, I'm having to add salt, TA adjustment, and CYA as well, plus running to the store for all these chemicals is certainly on my list of maintenance items. Let me know when your SWG products will do all that for me and you might have something.

Second, THE FEEL OF THE WATER IS BETTER!
Simply put, there is an isotonic effect, simply by adding salt to your pool. With our body salinity level at about 9,000 ppm, the added salt in the pool brings your pool water closer to what your body salinity level is. The result is less isotonic effect of your body's salt and the pool water (read more comfortable on the skin and eyes). Without going back and quoting everyone, it was pointed out that a salt pool provides less red eyes, but then again, red eyes can be as a result of high/low pH, combined chlorine, or imbalanced water. Do SWG ensure LESS incidences of high/low pH,combined chlorine, or imbalanced water? YES. Can you get the same result of bbb? YES. Does bbb it take more work, testing, care? YES.
Can your pool "FEEL" the same as a SWG pool? Sure. Just add salt. But, as I said before (but I can't prove this), if it wasn't for SWG, who would have though of adding salt to their pool?
This is your worst argument, and it's on the top of the list of marketing hype that sells your equipment. Let's compare apples to apples ok? I was just at my pool builder's home this weekend in his non-SWG pool. It was cloudy and the kids couldn't even stay in it for a few hours without some serious complaints about stinging eyes. No doubt, the guy and his family have no idea how to manage their pool chemistry. You're comparing this with primarily the benefits of salt by itself.

How about apples to apples? Just add a bit of salt to a BBB pool. Now add the same amount of time in education as I've put in for my SWG pool and spend the same amout of time maintaining it as I am in maintaining the PH on my SWG pool. Now compare. Where are those unique benefits to SWG now? Oh, it was your idea to add the salt first! :roll:

Is there a GREAT difference? Some so yes, some say it's very little. I've swam in both and I can feel a difference (but then I'm sure I'm percieved as a "LITTLE" biased).
Subtract out the apples to oranges differences, the bias, and all that credit you give yourself for coming up with the idea of salt first, and what do you have left? Sounds like a lot of marketing hype to me.

The Water Quality is better!
How can I say that!!??? HERE IT COMES....
If you're not adding bleach, testing water, and adding chemicals every day, what will your pool's water chemistry look like?
A SWG does this for you DAY IN AND DAY OUT. It does not require you to do much, other than test (occasionally, but MUCH less than bbb owners for sure) to ensure your pH is where it should be. There is VERY little fluctuation on Alkalinity, Calcium Hardness and CYA. Can bbb users say this?
My SWG is not adding acid every day or at least every other day. I have to do that part myself.

Combined chlorine, a very real fact of pool usage, must be controlled or alot of the problems of pool usage is brought up. What does combined chlorine cause? How about the obnoxious odor (MOST noticable with indoor pools), red eyes, respiratory reactions, higher chlorine demand?
I had a CC of .8 in my SWG pool just the other day. I wasn't testing regularly for CYA. With heavy rains and probably low levels to start with it, it dropped, and I couldn't maintain chlorine levels even with it set on 100% superchlorinate. Had I been maintaining chlorine daily instead of hoping the SWG would do it for me, I would have taken care of the problem sooner before algae convinced me to stop waiting on the SWG. I'm running at 50% output to maintain levels now. Although it's still early, I'm not confident I could reasonably expect to reach shock levels in a timely manner with this SWG. Perhaps I'm undersized (not an uncommon problem) or there's some other problem, but management of chlorine levels has certainly been anything other than maintenance free for me. It's not maintenance free. How many minutes a day am I saving that can be uniquely attributed to having the SWG?

I can only tell you the feedback I get from facility managers (remember I deal mostly with commercial pools) in what THEY TELL ME! Call the Hamburg Senior Center in upstate NY. Their employees were getting headaches from smelling the chlorine coming from the pool room (indoor pool but and two rooms (two closed doors) away). After adding our system, they do not have the odors anymore.
How many residential customers report this complaint with standard chlorination systems? What's the percentage of SWG's sold to residential customers as compared to commercial customers?

Call Silverwood Water Theme Park (Athol, Idaho), who after adding our salt system to their (OK this is a stretch) BUMPER BOAT POND, were finally able to SEE the bottom (no more than 3' deep), after many years of doing things the same way (bleach feeders). This was a huge liablity issue for them as it was SO cloudy that they would "not be able to see a body that fell in the water!" NOTE THE QUOTE!
Apples and oranges.

SeanB has testified that their child is able to swim in their SWG pool for hours, without any reactions to excema conditions. I have heard many reports of parents of asthmatic children who praise SWGs.
Could they have tried bbb? Well, I don't think Ben Powell is able to get into everyone's back yard, much less every commercial pool. Would there have been a difference? I don't know???

Any bbb users able to make this claim?
Let's put as much money into marketing salt as this industry has put into marketing SWG's and we'll see.

It does make it easier to maintain your pool. (convenience)
I'm spending 10+ minutes a day, and frequent trips to the store for salt and water balance chemicals. How many minutes am I saving and how many trips to the store?

Code:
It doesn make the water "feel" better (salt - the idea of adding salt to a pool was most likely brought about as a result of SWGs)
The SWG is not doing anything at all to make the water feel better. I did that when I dumped a few hundred pounds of salt into the pool. That was a great idea by the way. Thanks for that. Only at least you could have been more honest about it and admitted how salty that 3400ppm concentration would taste and how much of that concentration I didn't need to get the bulk of the benefits. Now tell me why I needed to spend $1500 to buy and install that SWG?

It does ensure better water quality than traditional pool treatments (bbb is not traditional)
The SWG doesn't do anything to ensure water quality. That's what I do while I'm spending all that time educating myself, testing the water, pouring in all that acid and salt, and running back to the store to buy more.

It does control Combined Chlorine in most conditions, without extra work (but the boost mode helps to control heavy demand conditions such as parties and weather conditions)
Zero CC is zero CC no matter what kind of pool it is, and why do you need a boost mode if the SWG eliminates CC? Lack of maintenance is lack of maintenance.

It does reduce fluctuations in water chemistry levels overall (more stable chlorine treatment and less pH fluctuations).
I can assure you I've got plenty of PH fluctuation.

WOW, how much of a salt peddler am I sounding like now?
It's clear you are what you are!

Now subtracting all that marketing hype, bias, and apples to oranges argumentation, what do we have left? There is some positive there, but I'm not convinced it's much. Perhaps when I'm past this first summer I might be more convinced. I can tell you after a few months of owning this pool it doesn't live up to the hype. The maintenance, cost, and water feel don't add up to the hype.

It would be nice not to have to worry about those tens of thousands of dollars worth of flagstone coping and rock work I just put in too. It would be nice not to worry about all that metal sitting in salt water on my pool equipment. It would be nice not to hear I should be concerned about that from my pool builder after I bought the SWG and have those concerns re-iterated now that I'm reading about SWG on the Internet. It would be nice to know that pool builders are putting those issues into their contracts now. I told my pool builder just the other day that I hadn't come to a conclusion on these issues, but my concern over this is certainly exceeding all those benefits I'm actual seeing. I'm undecided as to whether it was a real benefit to me to put in this SWG.
 

Backglass

Well-known member
Jun 4, 2007
146
Putnam County, NY
crazycanuck said:
after all this technical banter I think we can still pretty much conclude that 99% of pool
owners who have an SWCG is happy with their units.
...and 99% of smokers are happy with their cigarettes.

It's what might happen later that concerns me.
 

duraleigh

Admin
Mod Squad
TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
LifeTime Supporter
In The Industry
Apr 1, 2007
34,428
Sebring, Florida
Man, the group hug is appearing more and more remote. I was so looking forward to my "Rodney King" speech. :lol: :lol:

I'm personally very neutral about the whole deal but I find this thread somewhat riveting and completely interesting.

At our first ever TFP get together, I suggest we seek out "buggsw" and throw him/her in the pool for starting this thread.

Of course, there will have to be the requisite fist fight amongst us to determine if said pool is SWG chlorinated or Cloroxed. Perhaps we could find a baquacil pool as neutral ground. :lol: :lol:
 

JasonLion

TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
LifeTime Supporter
May 7, 2007
37,879
Silver Spring, MD
Usually you have to talk about politics or sports teams to get this much of a debate going.

brettc - If you start a new thread with a full set of numbers we might be able to help you simplify your daily pool work.
 

KurtV

LifeTime Supporter
Mar 29, 2007
270
SE Louisiana
I swear that I am NOT brettc, I'm not related to brettc, I don't know brett c, I have not had any prior contact with brettc, etc., etc., etc.
 

The Mermaid Queen

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Mar 28, 2007
2,522
Northern KY
KurtV said:
I swear that I am NOT brettc, I'm not related to brettc, I don't know brett c, I have not had any prior contact with brettc, etc., etc., etc.
This disclaimer would have been more believable had you posted it BEFORE brettc ... :lol: :lol: :wink: :wink:
 

Poolsean

TFP Expert
Apr 15, 2007
1,462
Ft Lauderdale, Florida
BrettC, I can only recommend that you approach your PB to ensure that your system is NOT undersized as you suspect.

By the way, Duraleigh asks a very important request. Please post numbers so we can help your situation. Your perception of a swg is being influenced by perhaps an undersized system, or the normal conditions of a new pool, bad water chemistry or some other condition, unknown at this point.

Which Model do you have?
What size cell?
What is your salt level (according to an actual salt test, not what the system shows)?
Free Chlorine
Total Chlorine
pH
Total Alkalinity
Calcium Hardness
Cyanuric Acid

How large is your pool? How many hours per day is your pump running? How old is your pool? When was your swg installed?

Help us to help you.

SeanB, ever though of a TFP PEACE SIGN coffee mug?

What if Buggsw started a post on "HOW MANY BBB OWNERS DO NOT LIKE THEIR METHOD OF SANITIZATION?"

Nice try KurtV. We know the connection already. 8) He your brother?
One vowel, last letter in first name is "t", and screen name is first name and last initial, in Caps. Veerrry Interesting.
 
G

Guest

Poolsean said:
Nice try KurtV. We know the connection already. 8) He your brother?
One vowel, last letter in first name is "t", and screen name is first name and last initial, in Caps. Veerrry Interesting.
ROFLMAO! :goodjob:
 
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