Electrical

[Poolmichael]

Hello,

Construction will begin on medium sized in-ground concrete pool for my family in about 6-8 weeks.

My question has more to do with the electrical side of things.
My home has a 125amp 30 slot panel with plenty of room to expand. (9 slots open) my house is also all gas. Gas stove, heater, water heater and dryer.
I'm told the pool will require 3 slots. 220 pump and 110 lights. I will also probably request a swg. So that requires another slot i believe.
In addition to the pool while all the electrical work is being done, I want to build a shed with 2 110 circuits and run a dedicated circuit for a freezer in my garage.
This will leave me with 2 slots with which I want to hook up a transfer switch for a portable generator.
So after all that I have no slots left running off a 125 amp panel.
I'm just not sure how having a pool pump running for hours will tax my existing electrical system
I have 3 options.
1. Get the slim breakers to give me more room in the current panel.
2. Install a sub panel.
3. Upgrade the whole system to 200 amps with the slim breakers.
I know this is not totally pool related, but I need some guidance.
Thank you

 

[abill]

So I am trying to understand this... your whole home is supplied by a single 125A box?

Some others here should have more info as to what was "actually" installed for a pool but
all the builders I have been recently meeting with are telling me that they will basically run
a 50A service out to the pool equipment (essentially they are installing their own sub panel
and that will require a a single double pole breaker at the 125A box you mention)

Do you know what your current amp load is? You might be on the bubble with needing a new
200a service and a new 200a panel?

 

[Poolmichael]

I do not know my current amp load, but I will try to calculate it.
Yes my whole home is supplied by a single 125amp 30 slot panel.
I suspect that I am on the bubble like you said on needing to upgrade to 200 amp service.
I only intend on staying in this home for 6-8 years, so I only want to do what is practical.

 

[Newdude]

My home has a 125amp 30 slot panel with plenty of room to expand. (9 slots open)

It matters less about the free slots and more about the max amp load on the breakers you already have.

Many older homes have added capacity on their existing circuits after upgrading to energy efficient lights / appliances. Power hogging desktops got replaced with laptops and tablets for example. CRT TVs became LED flats screens, that new energy star fridge whoops the monster that you had from the 80s and so on. Everytime you reduce the overall load it frees up more to use elsewhere.

The math on my existing breakers was close the 150A service but the electrican took one look at my brand new appliances and LED lights/TVs and said ‘Pfffffft……. You have plenty of Amps to spare for the pool’.

Yours will know in 5 minutes as well.

*Everybody’s mileage is different of course.

 

[Newdude]

*Also, good on you for figuring this out now. Many of the PBs electricians come in dirt cheap so people go with the builders guy. They make their money with the last minute ooopsies like panel upgrades and last minute changes / upgrades like automation.

We had my guy come before the last build and we needed the service upgraded to 200A. We got to have our guy do it with plenty of time to spare and most likely at a fairer price without the emergency while an electrician standing there saying ‘well you need this but for XYZ reasons it’s going to be expensive’.

 

[Poolmichael]

It matters less about the free slots and more about the max amp load on the breakers you already have.

Many older homes have added capacity on their existing circuits after upgrading to energy efficient lights / appliances. Power hogging desktops got replaced with laptops and tablets for example. CRT TVs became LED flats screens, that new energy star fridge whoops the monster that you had from the 80s and so on. Everytime you reduce the overall load it frees up more to use elsewhere.

The math on my existing breakers was close the 150A service but the electrican took one look at my brand new appliances and LED lights/TVs and said ‘Pfffffft……. You have plenty of Amps to spare for the pool’.

Yours will know in 5 minutes as well.

*Everybody’s mileage is different of course.

Thank you. Really i guess I just need to get my electrician to the house and look things over like you said. Not all of our lights are led yet, but as they burn out I've been replacing them with led.

 

[ajw22]

The devil is in the details of how you are doing your electrical and equipment to meet code. Refer to https://www.mikeholt.com/instructor2/img/product/pdf/17UND2-1483-sample.pdf

680.13 requires a maintenance disconnect which can be satisfied by the CB if it is close to the equipment.

680.22 requires at least one 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle must be located not less than 6 ft and not more than 20 ft from the inside wall of a permanently installed pool. This can take another CB slot if an existing outlet is not there.

Having the pool CB's in a sub-panel by the equipment provides a lot of convenience and flexibility. I don't know how far from the equipment your main electrical CB panel is. Working on problems where you have to turn power on and off can be a hassle if the CB is a long way from the equipment.

Pool owners often want to expand the pool's equipment during the life of the pool. Whether it be you or a future owner. Having a sub-panel will give you and future owners of your pool much easier upgrading in the future.

I don't think installing a sub-panel will cost much more then a few individual circuits.

I would do a sub-panel.

 

[Poolmichael]

The devil is in the details of how you are doing your electrical and equipment to meet code. Refer to https://www.mikeholt.com/instructor2/img/product/pdf/17UND2-1483-sample.pdf

680.13 requires a maintenance disconnect which can be satisfied by the CB if it is close to the equipment.

680.22 requires at least one 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle must be located not less than 6 ft and not more than 20 ft from the inside wall of a permanently installed pool. This can take another CB slot if an existing outlet is not there.

Having the pool CB's in a sub-panel by the equipment provides a lot of convenience and flexibility. I don't know how far from the equipment your main electrical CB panel is. Working on problems where you have to turn power on and off can be a hassle if the CB is a long way from the equipment.

Pool owners often want to expand the pool's equipment during the life of the pool. Whether it be you or a future owner. Having a sub-panel will give you and future owners of your pool much easier upgrading in the future.

I don't think installing a sub-panel will cost much more then a few individual circuits.

I would do a sub-panel.

Thank you.
Lots of information in that link. Since I'll be constructing an outbuilding within 10-15ft of the pool anyway, installing a sub-panel mounted on or even in that structure seems like the best option.
I didn't know about needing a dedicated receptacle 6-20ft from the pool.
I will make sure my electrical installation follows those codes.
Thanks again.

 

[Poolmichael]

It matters less about the free slots and more about the max amp load on the breakers you already have.

Many older homes have added capacity on their existing circuits after upgrading to energy efficient lights / appliances. Power hogging desktops got replaced with laptops and tablets for example. CRT TVs became LED flats screens, that new energy star fridge whoops the monster that you had from the 80s and so on. Everytime you reduce the overall load it frees up more to use elsewhere.

The math on my existing breakers was close the 150A service but the electrican took one look at my brand new appliances and LED lights/TVs and said ‘Pfffffft……. You have plenty of Amps to spare for the pool’.

Yours will know in 5 minutes as well.

*Everybody’s mileage is different of course.

I did the calculation on total amperage my house "could" use.
I used suggestions about receptacle and lighting amps based on square footage from the chart below.
After adding all large and small appliances together (including a 220 2hp vs pump pulling roughly 10 amps and a swg at 7 amps), I chose to not install a pool heater at this time, I came up with a total of about 228 amps.
That total implies every single electrical draw connected to the panel is active at the same time. That has never and will never happen.
My calculation suggested that before even adding the pool equipment and outbuildings my total amp draw "could be" 186 amps, and I've never had any panel overload problems in my 125 amp box that I know about.
So it looks like I need to upgrade to a 200 amp panel, and add a sub-panel "within sight" of the pool.

So I am trying to understand this... your whole home is supplied by a single 125A box?

Some others here should have more info as to what was "actually" installed for a pool but
all the builders I have been recently meeting with are telling me that they will basically run
a 50A service out to the pool equipment (essentially they are installing their own sub panel
and that will require a a single double pole breaker at the 125A box you mention)

Do you know what your current amp load is? You might be on the bubble with needing a new
200a service and a new 200a panel?

 

[Headbanger783]

I’m no electrician but I think 200amp service is pretty standard for the average home today. Our old house had 100 amp service and lights would dim every time the central air kicked on (initial start up).

in our house now we have 200amp service and don’t have any issues and our electrician said we’d be fine even adding a pool and accessories via subpanel near the pool.

If your near the top end of your usage I would definitely go for the panel upgrade.

 

[Poolmichael]

Please see post below.

 

[Poolmichael]

With advice and guidance from this forum, I upgraded my main electrical service from 125 to 200 amps.
My pool electrical will be supplied by a 125 amp 12/24 indoor load cernter wired for 100 amps located in a 10×14 shed i had built next to the pool.
I went this big partially because of future considerations and partially because of panel supply issues in my area.
I will provide some pictures at the end of this post.
My concern about this setup is the electrical code requiring a main disconnect in a panel with more than 6 circuits in a separate structure.
The pool electrician is telling me that the 100 amp breaker in my main panel located 70 feet away from the shed will satisfy this code requirement.
One final piece of information if it matters, the shed is on blocks not a concrete pad.
Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[JamesW]

My concern about this setup is the electrical code requiring a main disconnect in a panel with more than 6 circuits in a separate structure.

Will one of these work?

Square D 100 Amp 240-Volt 2-Pole Fused Indoor General Duty Safety Switch D223N - The Home Depot

The Square D by Schneider Electric 100 Amp 240 Volt 2-Pole Indoor Fusible General Duty Safety Switch is designed for residential and commercial applications where durability and economy are prime considerations.

www.homedepot.com

Eaton BR 100A 2-Space Outdoor Raintight Enclosure BR2B100RP 533444

Eaton BR 100A 2-Space Outdoor Raintight Enclosure model BR2B100RP by Eaton and other Eaton Outdoor Raintight Enclosures.

www.simsupply.com

Square D QO 100 Amp 2-Pole Outdoor Circuit Breaker Enclosure with QO2100 Breaker Included QO2100NRBCP - The Home Depot

The Square D by Schneider Electric QO 100 Amp Outdoor Circuit Breaker Enclosure includes a two-pole QO2100 circuit breaker for use as an exterior disconnect. This breaker box is suitable for use as service

www.homedepot.com

 

[Poolmichael]

Will one of these work?

[

Yes those look like they might fit the bill if the breaker in the main panel is not a sufficient disconnect.
Thank you.

 

[flynwill]

Agreed your pool electrician is wrong. The code requirement is that there not be more than 6 handles to turn off all power in the shed.
However it's completely possible to add a 100 A main to the panel you have, it will just consume two slots and needs to be appropriately labeled. The panel does not have to have a separated dedicated main breaker location.

 

[Poolmichael]

Agreed your pool electrician is wrong. The code requirement is that there not be more than 6 handles to turn off all power in the shed.
However it's completely possible to add a 100 A main to the panel you have, it will just consume two slots and needs to be appropriately labeled. The panel does not have to have a separated dedicated main breaker location.

That's a great solution. Thank you. I will hopefully be able convince the electrician to install the 100 amp breaker as you suggested.

 

[JamesW]

If you are using a main breaker to feed the panel, you probably need a Backfed Main Breaker Hold Down Kit.

I would have just gotten an automation system with a subpanel if you are going to do automation.

What equipment will you get?

Are you planning to get a heat pump?

 

[flynwill]

I should have have added that you will also need to check the ratings on the panel, some limit the maximum breaker size to 70 A.

 

[JamesW]

Check your manual for exact part and instructions.

How many single pole and double pole circuit breakers will you need?

GE PowerMark Gold Main Breaker Retainer Kit THQLRK3CP - The Home Depot

The Main Breaker Retainer Kit only works with GE PowerMark Gold load centers. It is designed to lock in the main breaker not allowing for easy removal. It's use meets NEC code requirements.

www.homedepot.com

GE PowerMark Gold Main Breaker Retainer Kit THQLRK2CP - The Home Depot

The GE PowerMark Gold Main Breaker Retainer Kit is designed for use only in PowerMark Gold main lug load centers. It provides locking functionality when a back-fed main breaker is used. It's use insures

www.homedepot.com

 

[Poolmichael]

If you are using a main breaker to feed the panel, you probably need a Backfed Main Breaker Hold Down Kit.

I would have just gotten an automation system with a subpanel if you are going to do automation.

What equipment will you get?

Are you planning to get a heat pump?

No automation and no heat pump. The only thing we are powering pool wise is a pentair variable pump a dedicated 20 amp receptacle and 3 led lights.
The rest of the circuits are for the shed, deck and one possibly more trenched to the garage for future considerations.