Defective liquid chlorine packaging

[MBPooldiy]

This morning I opened a carton of 2 x 1 gallon jugs LC that I had bought from Lowe's last week and discovered that one of the jugs had no cap or liner. The corrugated was partially dissolved and the jug and inside of the box were coated with a white deposit. I could still smell some chlorine so I used it anyway and added the second jug as well since my FC had dropped to near zero overnight (I think due to a Green to Clean treatment). I will retest the FC in an hour but wondering if there is any reason I should not have used the LC (other than the chlorine was probably depleted)?

BTW I had treated my pool with Green to Clean yesterday to avert an algae bloom which is why I think the FC was almost nil this morning. I have learned from this site that my CYA is too high which needs to be addressed, and I have scheduled a water purification (RO) but need to get through the next 2 weeks until my appointment.

 

[jeffchap]

The fact that you used Green to Clean (we *never* advocate the use of algaecides) makes me suspect that you are also relying upon pool store testing. The cornerstone of the TFP method is to perform your own testing using one of our recommended test kits. Pool store tests are highly suspect and simply not reliable enough for us to base recommendations upon.

I would not schedule the RO until I had a reliable test for CYA if I were you. It could be totally unnecessary and a waste of money. The CYA test is the one that pool stores are the worst at for some reason.

If you wish to follow the TFP method, order a test kit ASAP and while waiting for it to arrive, continue to add 5 ppm of FC each day using only liquid chlorine.

Once you have your kit, post the following results and we can make recommendations from there.

CYA
FC
CC
pH
TA

Swimming Pool Test Kits Compared

What pool test kit should I buy? Why not use test strips? Our recommended test kits will pay for themselves in no time!

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Newdude]

+1. R.O. is awfully spendy. I would not be doing so based upon the reliability of the testing that got you where you stand.

Get your own Test Kits Compared. Go from there.

Welcome to TFP !!!

 

[kul]

Agree with the above. I also did RO. Do your own testing before/during/after so you know what is happening and that you are getting the results you are paying for. Also prior to RO, at least here in LA, you have to let your chlorine come down so that the water can enter the sewer system. I can’t remember what I had to let it fall to, maybe 1 or 0 by the time it got going.

 

[MBPooldiy]

Hi, yes I have been testing myself with the K-2006 test kit for a couple of weeks now. My CYA is definitely high (195 last week down from 210 the previous week probably from the rain and a hard backwash). I understand that even with the Taylor test kit there could be a discrepancy especially when you have to dilute the sample (I need a 1:3 ratio). For my second CYA test I was conservative and made sure that I could see no trace at all of the dot, (which I think would err on the side of getting a lower CYA reading) and still got 195.

I used the Green to Clean once just before joining TFP and it worked for a couple of weeks but the algae came back. Yes it was Leslie's that I used and their CYA results were similar to mine. When I went back for another dose they actually did not want to sell it to me because they said a pool guy had told them it would raise TDS if you use it too much. They tried to sell me a phosphate remover and/or algaecide instead but I declined.

I had RO done last Feb and the pool was great for over a year however my pool service continued to use the trichlor over that time and I'm now back to where I was. Plus now have a calcium ring. I decided to discontinue my pool service and switched to LC upon discovering TFP but had hoped I could get my CYA down over time and avoid another RO treatment or pool drain. But came to the conclusion that I don't want to spend the summer testing twice a day and running to the store multiple times a week to buy more LC and algaecides to keep the algae at bay while the CYA comes down.

Just wondering what to think about using chlorine that was opened and not recapped sometime before I even bought it and has obviously had some type of reaction with the carton.

My last test results:
Yesterday before GTC + 2 gallons LC:
FC 9.0 (this morning it was 0 and I added another 2 gal of LC one of which was defectively packaged)
CC 0.0
pH 7.9
CSI .25

Last full test (which I decided to do 1/week after backwash and soft water top off)
FC 4.5
cc 0
pH 7.8
TA 82 (adjusted for CYA)
CH 500
CYA 195
CSI -.27

 

[koffey]

Oh my, your CYA is going to be a huge problem. You'll be looking at a drain.

 

[Newdude]

Hi, yes I have been testing myself with the K-2006 test kit for a couple of weeks now. My CYA is definitely high (195 last week down from 210 the previous week probably from the rain and a hard backwash). I understand that even with the Taylor test kit there could be a discrepancy especially when you have to dilute the sample (I need a 1:3 ratio)

OK that's GREAT !!!!! You have it down well and are in the 200-ish range for sure. Proceeded at will.

Just wondering what to think about using chlorine that was opened and not recapped sometime before I even bought it and has obviously had some type of reaction with the carton.

It likely evaporated and left behind the salt. It doesn't go bad or spoil, it only weakens in strength. That said, if it was left open, lost all potency and stagnant pond water was in there, I wouldn't use it. But it sounds like yours was good enough.


As far as algecides go mid season, they are counter productive as they will make you lose FC, requiring both more bleach and more algecide.

 

[jeffchap]

I don't see any problem with using the open chlorine bottle. It may not have been as strong as it otherwise should have been, but I don't see where you would have any adverse reaction due to that.

You state that it raised your FC by 9 ppm. I don't see your pool size listed anywhere. Using Pool Math, how much would you have expected it to raise it?

And how green is your pool? Can you post a pic?

 

[proavia]

While it's really too hot in Phoenix to drain the pool right now - it's MUCH cheaper to drain/refill than to do an RO treatment. And based on the RO equipment, you will still be replacing up to 25% of your water anyway.

No more pool store potions for you.

Did you do the diluted CYA test?
If your CYA is over 90-ish, it will be difficult to properly maintain your FC.
If you were to find a way to quickly drain and refill, you would still need to keep your pebble/plaster wet/damp during the full drain/refill as it's way too hot here right now to leave the surfafe exposed and dry.

Use PoolMath and don't worry about "adjusted TA" as PoolMath does all the calculations for you.

Keeping your TA (un-adjusted) around 60 will slow your pH rise.
Keeping CSI between 0.00 and - 0.30 will help keep scale in your SWG to a minimum.

Since you keep the pool open year-round, no need to EVER add algicide. And if you maintain your FC according to the FC/CYA Levels, you will nefer get algae or hafe a need to use "shock".

Remember, if FC is greater than 10, the pH test will be inaccurate.

 

[MBPooldiy]

Wow, I really appreciate the amount of interest in my pool problems. I have learned so much from this group in just 2 weeks!

Responding to Gene's comments/suggestions:

I had read on this site that we should keep the pH in range and don't worry about TA. But there is a test for TA in the K-2006 test kit so I thought it wouldn't hurt to use it as a sanity check. And yes, I had to dilute my sample by 3 to 1 to get a result. That being the case, shouldn't I adjust that number for CYA before logging it into the test results section? Without the adjustment I would have logged my TA as 150 which would put my CSI at .61 instead of -.27. Is that how the tool is supposed to be used? If that is the case then no wonder I have a big calcium ring on my pool tile. So what is the correct way to determine the TA to log into pool math in order to get the real CSI? Maybe I will start another thread on that.

Also, I must have found a really good RO company (whose service includes chemicals to rebalance) because I don't think the cost is significantly more than draining and rebalancing the pool myself, plus it is a whole lot easier and takes less than 1 day. My municipality charges for water based on usage tiers and I'm sure that my water bill would more than double if I were to completely refill my pool (and it's already 3 to 4 x what we used to pay on the East Coast).

For everyone:

I have surely learned that there is no need for algaecide or shock by following the TFP method and I am looking forward to getting there. But it's not possible currently with my high CYA and I cannot just go outside and start pumping out my pool this very minute. So in lieu of that I have to do something or I will end up with a green swamp probably within 1-2 days. So that is the reason for mentioning things like algaecide and GTC, only because short term there is no other option. And believe it or not I have found some tidbits of "emergency" information in a few places on this site though it is very difficult to find (which is good by design because in digging for that information I have learned so much more about the better method).

BTW after adding the 2 gallons of LC this morning, I retested and it increased from 0 to 6. It may be due to the fact that one of the jugs was sold to me without a cap and/or because the GTC is still consuming chlorine. I think I need to get the FC up to at least 10 and keep it there until my RO treatment (actually should be higher based on my CYA but then I wouldn't be able to measure the pH). So looks like I need to go and add another gallon of LC, which should raise FC by 5 per Pool Math.

Because someone asked: As of now the water looks very clear with no visible algae (so I can't post a picture). Yesterday it was murky with a green tinge. I could still see the drains but it would have been completely opaque green by today if I hadn't added the GTC.

 

[jeffchap]

Take whatever you plan to spend on algaecide or GTC and spend it on liquid chlorine instead. It'll do more to keep the algae at bay and won't add anything else to your water, ie. copper. Even though you plan to have RO performed, it doesn't make sense to me to put even more undesirable products in your water.

 

[ajw22]

I had read on this site that we should keep the pH in range and don't worry about TA.

Not worrying about TA and not measuring it are two different things.

You should measure your TA and enter it into PoolMath. PM needs a good TA value to calculate the amount of acid needed to lower the pH a certain amount.

And yes, I had to dilute my sample by 3 to 1 to get a result.

Dilute your TA test? Why?

The only test you need to use a dilution method is the CYA test if the CYA is over 90.

That being the case, shouldn't I adjust that number for CYA before logging it into the test results section? Without the adjustment I would have logged my TA as 150 which would put my CSI at .61 instead of -.27. Is that how the tool is supposed to be used? If that is the case then no wonder I have a big calcium ring on my pool tile. So what is the correct way to determine the TA to log into pool math in order to get the real CSI?

For PoolMath you log the actual TA and CYA test values. Make no adjustments. PM makes the necessary adjustments in its calculations.

Yes, your CSI is high at 0.61 and is in the scaling range.

I have surely learned that there is no need for algaecide or shock by following the TFP method and I am looking forward to getting there. But it's not possible currently with my high CYA and I cannot just go outside and start pumping out my pool this very minute. So in lieu of that I have to do something or I will end up with a green swamp probably within 1-2 days. So that is the reason for mentioning things like algaecide and GTC, only because short term there is no other option. And believe it or not I have found some tidbits of "emergency" information in a few places on this site though it is very difficult to find (which is good by design because in digging for that information I have learned so much more about the better method).

I suggest you use higher amounts of chlorine and get a pH meter and calibrating solutions to check your pH rather then rely on algecides to manage high CYA. Many of use use the Apera ph20 or pH60 meters.

(actually should be higher based on my CYA but then I wouldn't be able to measure the pH). So looks like I need to go and add another gallon of LC, which should raise FC by 5 per Pool Math.

Use a Apera ph20 or pH60 meter and calibrating solutions.

 

[MBPooldiy]

Allen,
So with the pH meter I don't need to worry about getting an inaccurate pH reading above FC 10? Thanks for pointing me to those--I was wondering if there was a device that could quickly measure pH without having to collect a sample and get out the kit each time.

On the TA test, I got confused--it is the CYA test that I dilute. For the TA test I use the option with smaller sample size (to conserve reagents) where the #drops is multiplied by 25 instead of 10.

 

[ajw22]

Allen,
So with the pH meter I don't need to worry about getting an inaccurate pH reading above FC 10?

Correct. Just calibrate it regularly using the calibrating solutions.

Before I use my pH meter I do a quick calibration check using my tap water which is always pH 7.5. If my tap water does not read 7.5 then I break out the calibrating solutions first.

If the pH meter is not reading what I expect then I get out the liquid test.

I find the liquid test can take as little time as the pH meter with all the calibration checks it needs.

For the TA test I use the option with smaller sample size (to conserve reagents) where the #drops is multiplied by 25 instead of 10.

When you reduce the sample size you increase the error range. You should do at least one TA test with the 25ml sample x10 and then as long as the 10ml samples x25 are coming in around the same number you can rely on it.

 

[MBPooldiy]

Not if this thread is still active but just wanted to to ask about the Apera pH meter. I did buy first a used "good condition" pH20 on Amazon. Upon arrival it would not turn on and I saw that I would need to buy the third calibration solution and kcl, so I returned it and then bought a "used like new" pH60. Happily it does turn on and it contains all 3 calibration liquids and the kcl solution. There was no moisture in the cap so I'm going to soak it in the kcl until tomorrow morning before using it.

My questions: Is it recommended to store the probe in the kcl to be certain it never dries out? When would you change the kcl solution? For the calibration solutions do you just use them once and throw out or if I am very careful not to cross contaminate them is it OK to save and reuse the solutions a few times? Or maybe save them in a set of separate set of "used solution" bottles rather than put back in the main bottle with the fresh stuff? I plan to do a double rinse between each solution first with RO water and then distilled water. I haven't actually looked up the cost of the solutions and I think I might not use the pH meter as frequently once my CYA comes down and I can drop the FC level to below 10.

BTW my CYA has come down about 50 ppm through backwashing and rain. Last measurement was 130-150 (still having some trouble judging the black dot) and I'm sure it was over 200 when I started. I returned my algaecide for refund and have been adding 3 qts of LC each day--targeting 15 ppm FC and it has been dropping to 11.5-12 by the end of the day. Keeping an eagle eye out for algae--so far so good. But I can see I'm going to have to look into a chlorine pump before too long. Great advice given on this thread--thanks to everyone!

 

[bertschb]

My questions: Is it recommended to store the probe in the kcl to be certain it never dries out?

Mine came shipped with some KCL fluid in the cap so that's how I store mine in between uses.

From the owner's manual:

 

[bertschb]

For the calibration solutions do you just use them once and throw out or if I am very careful not to cross contaminate them is it OK to save and reuse the solutions a few times?

Again, from the owner's manual: