CYA/Chlorine - Angry pool store guy

Mdragger88

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Jun 1, 2018
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Hernando, Ms
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Intex Krystal Clear
@dntressel I sure hope u got your Torchy Tacos 🌮!!
People are nuts - since getting my k1766 I am now free from ever having the pool store test my water or having to hear how my chlorine is sooo high even though I only asked them to test salt with their meter 🤣
I just go in & buy my stuff (liquid chlorine, maybe stabilizer or accessories) & say my water is great when they ask. It’s all i can do not to speak up when they are selling the long line of people floc & telling them to bomb their pool with trichlor & cal hypo & to come back in if that doesn’t fix their swamp. I just back away…
backing up homer simpson GIF
 
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Newdude

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Jun 16, 2019
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All you people gotta see the free test for what it is. If you ask for the free test, you need to expect to hear the sales lines.

It's no different than the free '3 day vacation' anywhere warm. They are going to lock you up in time share presentations for 2.75 of those days.

So if you are willfully going to the pool store to 'see what they say', you asked for it when they have stuff to say. Protip: be prepared to want to bleach your ears. :ROFLMAO:
 
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Wendy3tkl

Bronze Supporter
Jun 28, 2021
66
Westminster, MD
Pool Size
8600
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Liquid Chlorine
Our local Leslie's sell Liquid Chlorine. Only you have to ask for it, they don't keep it on the shelves. It's also labeled "Super Shock." It's 12.5 % sodium hypochlorite. They didn't sell it last year. I used it when I slammed bc it's easier. Less bottles and pouring.

I was thinking maybe it's what they recommend to Shock the pool when the CYA level is too high and they don't want to tell you it's too high. But that would indicate that they are KNOWINGLY misleading the consumer.
 
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Katygreys

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Mar 5, 2022
218
Katy, TX
Pool Size
18000
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Plaster
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I’m going to start making up fake product names of stuff that I bought from “other pool stores” when I go into a PS.

“I went to the other store down the street and they told me my Tungsten was too low, they sold me WolframUp. I’m not sure I want to add that to my pool because they also sold me some HocusPocusMinimizer, and it has a Tungsten flocculant. I suppose I could add both and then add some TungFlocDown. What do you think?”
 

Orion7319

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Jul 1, 2020
1,146
Rock Hill, South Carolina
Pool Size
19775
Surface
Vinyl
Chlorine
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SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Sometimes I go to my local store to get my water tested as well. Mainly because until recently I also didn’t trust my ability to interpret the CYA test. I always make sure to buy something that I actually need or would be good to have on hand in case of an emergency (glue for vinyl patch, or epoxy for example). I listen intently to their advise, (because they might catch on if I don’t) and then I tell them I already have whatever chemical they are trying to sell me. “What’s that you say? I need to add algicide? Good thing I’ve got 38 gallons of algicide at home!” (It’s fun telling them you already have a ridiculous amount of whatever it is they are trying to sell you)
 

Mdragger88

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TFP Guide
Jun 1, 2018
5,980
Hernando, Ms
Pool Size
26000
Surface
Vinyl
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Intex Krystal Clear
I’m going to start making up fake product names of stuff that I bought from “other pool stores” when I go into a PS.

“I went to the other store down the street and they told me my Tungsten was too low, they sold me WolframUp. I’m not sure I want to add that to my pool because they also sold me some HocusPocusMinimizer, and it has a Tungsten flocculant. I suppose I could add both and then add some TungFlocDown. What do you think?”
You’ll love this one 👇
 

Katygreys

Gold Supporter
Mar 5, 2022
218
Katy, TX
Pool Size
18000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Liquid Chlorine
You’ll love this one 👇
Omg. Loooooooove it!
 

SoDel

Well-known member
May 27, 2022
312
Coastal Sussex Delaware
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
Pool store guy was right about one thing. — using LC (or any other form of chlorine except chlorine gas I guess) will raise TDS. Why anyone would care about TDS anymore when salt pools are going to be routinely in at least the 4,000 to 5,000 range and they work just fine, is hard to explain. I think it’s worthwhile to measure TDS now and then for CSI purposes. I think your pool store guy doesn’t understand what happens when any form of chlorine is added to a pool. :)
 
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mheathcott

New member
Aug 23, 2021
1
San Antonio, Texas
Pool Size
6000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Liquid Chlorine
So--honest question here: What is the deal with TDS? (pointing me to another thread is fine if that's easier) I'm only 9 months into pool ownership, so this is my first full season. I had a few nagging concerns and talked a guy from the company who built our pool to come out a couple weeks ago to follow up on everything. He's a nice guy and didn't run away screaming when I mentioned TFP. The one "buyer beware" concern he had was that "using bleach from the grocery store is going to raise your TDS over time." I had not come across a mention of TDS previously in my TFP reading. (The only time I've ever encountered TDS has been related to coffee!) I nodded and said that I'd keep that in mind. So, to reiterate: what's the deal with TDS?
 

SoDel

Well-known member
May 27, 2022
312
Coastal Sussex Delaware
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
So--honest question here: What is the deal with TDS? (pointing me to another thread is fine if that's easier) I'm only 9 months into pool ownership, so this is my first full season. I had a few nagging concerns and talked a guy from the company who built our pool to come out a couple weeks ago to follow up on everything. He's a nice guy and didn't run away screaming when I mentioned TFP. The one "buyer beware" concern he had was that "using bleach from the grocery store is going to raise your TDS over time." I had not come across a mention of TDS previously in my TFP reading. (The only time I've ever encountered TDS has been related to coffee!) I nodded and said that I'd keep that in mind. So, to reiterate: what's the deal with TDS?
Using any form of chlorination will raise TDS (except, I think, chlorine gas, including SWG, but I haven’t thought hard on that yet). The TFP method of using LC creates the least amount of problems with either CYA or CH increases — chlorinating a pool has no free lunch. Yes, over time, TDS will increase (and IMHO, measure it from time to time so you can manage your calcium saturation appropriately). But ultimately, it’s part of managing your pool so unless it gets ridiculous, it’s not a problem, just another measurement.

I recently ordered a TDS metrology gizmo on amazon. If I remember right, it was less than 10 bucks. If it comes in within +-500 ppm accuracy, I’m good with that. It’s a CSI factor but not a huge one (and there seems to be some digression on that too — how much of a factor, how to interpolate the original break (at 1,200 ppm if I remember right), yadda, yadda). It’s a factor, but disagreement on exactly how it factors in so, in my view, there’s some wiggle room in some presently unknowns.

At the end of the day, maybe look at it like this. #1 manage your sanitation, do not harm your family or guests; #2 manage CSI and don’t damage your pool or equipment; #99 get into the nitty gritty of TDS and stuff like that :)

If you use poolmath or another LSI / CSI calculator, you’ll see an entry for TDS. If you have concerns or doubts about it. get a gizmo to measure it or calculate it roughly by adding up CH, TA and salt (I’m post happy hour so somebody help what else is in there) add it up and plug in that number.
 
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Newdude

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So, to reiterate: what's the deal with TDS?
It's one of the big pool store scare tactics. They make you add a bunch of stuffs, then claim its dissolved form is going to hurt you. Of course they have magic potions for that too. And when they don't work, they have you drain and sell you all the rebalance chemicals, which start raising your TDS immediately. 🤦‍♂️

In short : it's hogwash.
 

Orion7319

Well-known member
Jul 1, 2020
1,146
Rock Hill, South Carolina
Pool Size
19775
Surface
Vinyl
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
It's one of the big pool store scare tactics. They make you add a bunch of stuffs, then claim its dissolved form is going to hurt you. Of course they have magic potions for that too. And when they don't work, they have you drain and sell you all the rebalance chemicals, which start raising your TDS immediately. 🤦‍♂️

In short : it's hogwash.
“What is the nature of total dissolved solids?” Jean-Paul Sartre(didn’t say that at all)

EDIT: I know that was bad, but all the good chemistry jokes argon….
 
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toolerb50

Gold Supporter
Jul 10, 2020
63
Ohio
Pool Size
7500
Surface
Vinyl
Chlorine
Liquid Chlorine

Seems like all chlorine types raise TDS, maybe you could mail that link to your pool store guy
 
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jseyfert3

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Oct 20, 2017
1,957
Southern WI
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Using any form of chlorination will raise TDS (except, I think, chlorine gas, including SWG, but I haven’t thought hard on that yet).
Pretty sure chlorine gas will still raise TDS, cause you'd adding chlorine. The end result is chloride ions floating around. When you add chlorine gas, it reacts with water to create HOCl, the primary chlorine disinfectant:
Cl2(g) + H2O --> HOCl + H+ + Cl-

Some of the HOCl with dissociate (I think that's the right term) into OCl-, which does disinfect as well, but only to a very small amount:
HOCl --> H+ + OCl-

When used up:
2HOCl --> O2(g) + 2H+ + 2Cl-
2OCl- --> O2(g) + 2Cl-

In short, originally you had water, with nothing in it, now you have water, with Cl- ions floating around, which is TDS. Very similar for adding liquid chlorine (NaOCl) except you end up with Cl- and Na+ ions floating around after that chemistry all works out.

SWCG is the only form of chlorination that does not raise TDS. You initially raise it by dumping in loads of salt (sodium chloride), which separates into sodium and chloride ions when it dissolves. But the magic of a SWCG is it takes those "dead" chloride ions and recycles. Using electricity, it strips electrons from the chloride ions, turning 2Cl- into Cl2, and, as a byproduct on the other plate, creates hydrogen gas and hydroxide ions:
2Cl- --> Cl2(g) + 2e-
2H2O + 2e- --> H2(g) + 2OH-

Combining those equations you get the following net:
2H2O + 2Cl- --> Cl2(g) + H2(g) + 2OH-

So, wait. A SWCG is making chlorine gas? Yes, it is! And hydrogen gas too. The chlorine gas dissolves back into the water very rapidly and almost entirely, and works exactly the same as the first equations I posted for chlorine gas chlorination. The hydrogen gas does not dissolve much at all and bubbles out of the pool.

The end result though is you are not adding anything during this chlorination process. You're taking chloride ions that are pre-added with salt, stripping electrons to make it chlorine gas, the chlorine gas dissolves back into the water and makes HOCl, which after it does the thing we want it to do ends up as Cl- ions floating around in the water again. They get picked back up by the SWCG, and the cycle repeats.

So, summary is chlorine gas still increases TDS (unless I'm not understanding something correctly), but a SWCG does not increase TDS while running. You do a one time TDS increase when adding salt but it doesn't rise after that because you are recycling chloride ions, not adding new chlorine. Any other form of chlorine additions will increase TDS because you aren't doing this "recycling."

Having said all that, there's NO need to worry about TDS. It's a marketing gimmick, and used wrongly at that, by saying liquid chlorine will raise your TDS but pucks will not. BS! It all will raise your TDS, except SWCG. Which is of course the LAST thing an average pool store will tell you to get cause it means no more money for them on overpriced chlorinating products!

Please note I didn't come up with these equations myself. I copied chem geek's equations in post #3 from his quite excellent stickied post on pool water chemistry over in The Deep End. And I did it poorly, cause somehow he had all the proper superscripts and subscripts that make the equations easier to read, but that doesn't copy over...
 

SoDel

Well-known member
May 27, 2022
312
Coastal Sussex Delaware
Pool Size
15000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Hayward Turbo Cell (T-CELL-5)
Pretty sure chlorine gas will still raise TDS, cause you'd adding chlorine. The end result is chloride ions floating around. When you add chlorine gas, it reacts with water to create HOCl, the primary chlorine disinfectant:
Cl2(g) + H2O --> HOCl + H+ + Cl-

Some of the HOCl with dissociate (I think that's the right term) into OCl-, which does disinfect as well, but only to a very small amount:
HOCl --> H+ + OCl-

When used up:
2HOCl --> O2(g) + 2H+ + 2Cl-
2OCl- --> O2(g) + 2Cl-

In short, originally you had water, with nothing in it, now you have water, with Cl- ions floating around, which is TDS. Very similar for adding liquid chlorine (NaOCl) except you end up with Cl- and Na+ ions floating around after that chemistry all works out.

SWCG is the only form of chlorination that does not raise TDS. You initially raise it by dumping in loads of salt (sodium chloride), which separates into sodium and chloride ions when it dissolves. But the magic of a SWCG is it takes those "dead" chloride ions and recycles. Using electricity, it strips electrons from the chloride ions, turning 2Cl- into Cl2, and, as a byproduct on the other plate, creates hydrogen gas and hydroxide ions:
2Cl- --> Cl2(g) + 2e-
2H2O + 2e- --> H2(g) + 2OH-

Combining those equations you get the following net:
2H2O + 2Cl- --> Cl2(g) + H2(g) + 2OH-

So, wait. A SWCG is making chlorine gas? Yes, it is! And hydrogen gas too. The chlorine gas dissolves back into the water very rapidly and almost entirely, and works exactly the same as the first equations I posted for chlorine gas chlorination. The hydrogen gas does not dissolve much at all and bubbles out of the pool.

The end result though is you are not adding anything during this chlorination process. You're taking chloride ions that are pre-added with salt, stripping electrons to make it chlorine gas, the chlorine gas dissolves back into the water and makes HOCl, which after it does the thing we want it to do ends up as Cl- ions floating around in the water again. They get picked back up by the SWCG, and the cycle repeats.

So, summary is chlorine gas still increases TDS (unless I'm not understanding something correctly), but a SWCG does not increase TDS while running. You do a one time TDS increase when adding salt but it doesn't rise after that because you are recycling chloride ions, not adding new chlorine. Any other form of chlorine additions will increase TDS because you aren't doing this "recycling."

Having said all that, there's NO need to worry about TDS. It's a marketing gimmick, and used wrongly at that, by saying liquid chlorine will raise your TDS but pucks will not. BS! It all will raise your TDS, except SWCG. Which is of course the LAST thing an average pool store will tell you to get cause it means no more money for them on overpriced chlorinating products!

Please note I didn't come up with these equations myself. I copied chem geek's equations in post #3 from his quite excellent stickied post on pool water chemistry over in The Deep End. And I did it poorly, cause somehow he had all the proper superscripts and subscripts that make the equations easier to read, but that doesn't copy over...
Excellent explanation, thank you! To prove I’ve been hanging around TFP too long, it did flip through my head that adding Cl gas would have to increase free ions in the water (sort of what’s intended or at least what has to happen in the sanitizing HOCL / OCL axis, or nobody would use Cl(g)) but what was a little too complex to just flip through my head is what exactly happens next and whether there would be a net gain.

My only three questions (like three wishes) would be: 1. in the first reaction wouldn’t the H+ and Cl- combine to form HCl (and its sequelae — probably irrelevant to this discussion but just proving I’m paying attention)? 2. What eventually happens to the Cl- ions with all the other stuff available in the water? 3. Doesn’t sunlight change some of this?

Probably topics for the Deep End lol. (maybe a mod can move this discussion and we continue there — the work you put into this is recognized and appreciated)
 

PoolStored

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My only three questions (like three wishes) would be: 1. in the first reaction wouldn’t the H+ and Cl- combine to form HCl (and its sequelae — probably irrelevant to this discussion but just proving I’m paying attention)? 2. What eventually happens to the Cl- ions with all the other stuff available in the water? 3. Doesn’t sunlight change some of this?
This should help answer your questions.

 

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