Bonding upgraded pumps is too hard. What is the most powerful pump/filter that does not require bonding (and I hope will pump to my roof solar)

[AGP noob]

Whether and individual piece of equipment requires bonding or not is irrelevant..

So in the situation that 99% of intex pool owners are in with a pool and plastic intex pump. You are saying they are NO safer than if that same owner upgrades the pump to a metal (not double insulated) pump that requires bonding per the NEC?

Im just coming at this from the perspective that
1) The NEC requires bonding for upgraded pool pumps
2) The NEC has an exemption specifically for double insulated plastic pool pumps
3) The most important things to bond is metal. An intex pump has all plastic exterior and is double insulated vs an upgraded up is the opposite.

I know that bonding the whole system is important but it does not make sense to me that an individual piece of the equipment can be irrelevant in an unbonded system based on the above. Based on the above, and in an unbonded system, that upgraded metal pump sounds less safe

 

[phonedave]

So in the situation that 99% of intex pool owners are in with a pool and plastic intex pump. You are saying they are NO safer than if that same owner upgrades the pump to a metal (not double insulated) pump that requires bonding per the NEC?

Im just coming at this from the perspective that
1) The NEC requires bonding for upgraded pool pumps
2) The NEC has an exemption specifically for double insulated plastic pool pumps
3) The most important things to bond is metal. An intex pump has all plastic exterior and is double insulated vs an upgraded up is the opposite.

I know that bonding the whole system is important but it does not make sense to me that an individual piece of the equipment can be irrelevant in an unbonded system based on the above. Based on the above, and in an unbonded system, that upgraded metal pump sounds less safe

Grounding protects you from problems with electricity that feeding electric devices. The hot lead in motor works its way loose and touches the case. Without ground there is no way for the system to clear the fault, and when you come by and touch the metal pump case - zap

Bonding protects you from differences in potential in conductive surfaces that may arise from who knows where. Maybe there is a defective underground feeder somewhere, maybe there is a cross on the pole and the MGN is now feeding the earth. Maybe your AC unit is causing the issue. Who knows, but bonding connects all the different conductive parts that you can touch at the same time, and makes them one big part.

So, if you pump is not considered a conductive part (because it is entirely encased in a plastic insulator) then it does not need to be bonded (in theory) because it is not a conductive item. Just like a set of plastic stairs don't need to be bonded a plastic (coated) pump does not need to be bonded (in theory) but everything else that can conduct electricity sill should be - pool water, earth, etc.

Bonding can be a little difficult to grasp at first. It seems odd - how can somebody be OK in the pool water, but if I stand outside the pool and touch the water with my hand I can be shocked. It has to do with differences in potential. In some cases with high voltages you can get shocked or killed by just walking. If there is a high voltage cross the difference in potential between two points on the ground can be enough to kill you. If a bucket truck makes contact with high voltage that can happen. The first choice is to stay in the truck (the tires are insulators), but if you have to leave (because often things start on fire too) you throw out an insulating blanket, jump onto it and then SHUFFLE away. Taking a step can bridge enough potential to send current up one leg and down the other.

 

[CJadamec]

Yes but this metal is not exposed and double insulated and covered by plastic. Whereas an upgraded pump has exposed metal and not double insulated




from what I see and have seen discussed is that it is not a loophole, but the code States double insulated pumps are exempt from bonding.
this leads me to Think that this is safer in an unbonded system compared to a metal pump that requires bonding from both the manufacture and the NEC.

it does not appear to be a loophole. I am no expert so I appreciate the insight

When I owned an intex pool the manual in fine print stated you should not swim with the pump on or plugged in.

The fact that the pump is double insulated does nothing to protect the swimmer in the water or getting out of the water. It only protects someone who is touching the pump.

Intex uses small cheaply manufactured motors and double insulates them to use as a loophole to avoid bonding requirements in their equipment. There is a reason they don't make any bigger pumps, even for their larger pools. It would force them to meet different codes. The NEC code book is 900 pages long. Only 14 pages apply to pools directly and none of those 14 pages get into motor design.

Code says not to bond a double insulated motor because it would be unsafe to do so. That's due to the design of the motor. That does not mean it is some how a safer pump to use.

You are confusing the lack of the requirements as something that equals a safer product that's not how it works.

 

[AGP noob]

Grounding protects you from problems with electricity that feeding electric devices. The hot lead in motor works its way loose and touches the case. Without ground there is no way for the system to clear the fault, and when you come by and touch the metal pump case - zap

Bonding protects you from differences in potential in conductive surfaces that may arise from who knows where. Maybe there is a defective underground feeder somewhere, maybe there is a cross on the pole and the MGN is now feeding the earth. Maybe your AC unit is causing the issue. Who knows, but bonding connects all the different conductive parts that you can touch at the same time, and makes them one big part.

So, if you pump is not considered a conductive part (because it is entirely encased in a plastic insulator) then it does not need to be bonded (in theory) because it is not a conductive item. Just like a set of plastic stairs don't need to be bonded a plastic (coated) pump does not need to be bonded (in theory) but everything else that can conduct electricity sill should be - pool water, earth, etc.

Bonding can be a little difficult to grasp at first. It seems odd - how can somebody be OK in the pool water, but if I stand outside the pool and touch the water with my hand I can be shocked. It has to do with differences in potential. In some cases with high voltages you can get shocked or killed by just walking. If there is a high voltage cross the difference in potential between two points on the ground can be enough to kill you. If a bucket truck makes contact with high voltage that can happen. The first choice is to stay in the truck (the tires are insulators), but if you have to leave (because often things start on fire too) you throw out an insulating blanket, jump onto it and then SHUFFLE away. Taking a step can bridge enough potential to send current up one leg and down the other.

love this explanation thank you

Maybe your AC unit is causing the issue.

So in this example, an A/C unit can cause/create a voltage potential difference, then in theory could an upgraded metal pool pump also cause this as well, where a double insulated plastic intex pump cannot...in the situation where you are NOT touching that pump? And therefore that intex pump is safer (vs a metal upgraded pump) in that regard even where you are not touching it (just like your A/C example)?

 

[mguzzy]

I know that bonding the whole system is important but it does not make sense to me that an individual piece of the equipment can be irrelevant in an unbonded system based on the above. Based on the above, and in an unbonded system, that upgraded metal pump sounds less safe

It is not irrelevant.. what is irrelevant is the individual specification of that device in the larger picture. That pump may say it doesn't require bonding but it doesn't operate in a vacuum. You need to look at the WHOLE SYSTEM. you added solar panels and you changed the pump. You are increasing the complexity beyond the initial setup. Each item may have a particular specification.. but the WHOLE POOL SYSTEM is what comes into play when you consider bonding. If that pump can pump your pools water without ever touching the water.. then you are fine (I know this is a preposterous statement). But it must touch your water, and it must use electricity, and the water connects to it and the panels and your roof (or wherever the panels are installed) and your equipment pad and your patio etc etc. Its your call how you want to proceed. A pump motor with extra insulation is no doubt safer, but it still has to be a part of the whole system. I don't want to belabor the point, I just want you to be aware of the physics of the situation.. Ohm's Law has no term in it for code compliance... just sayin'

 

[AGP noob]

It is not irrelevant.. what is irrelevant is the individual specification of that device in the larger picture. That pump may say it doesn't require bonding but it doesn't operate in a vacuum. You need to look at the WHOLE SYSTEM. you added solar panels and you changed the pump. You are increasing the complexity beyond the initial setup. Each item may have a particular specification.. but the WHOLE POOL SYSTEM is what comes into play when you consider bonding. If that pump can pump your pools water without ever touching the water.. then you are fine (I know this is a preposterous statement). But it must touch your water, and it must use electricity, and the water connects to it and the panels and your roof (or wherever the panels are installed) and your equipment pad and your patio etc etc. Its your call how you want to proceed. A pump motor with extra insulation is no doubt safer, but it still has to be a part of the whole system. I don't want to belabor the point, I just want you to be aware of the physics of the situation.. Ohm's Law has no term in it for code compliance... just sayin'

got it thank you
I wish i can cost effectively bond the whole pool system but in the situation i cannot, im looking for the next best alternatives to minimize risk (ie will one pump be safer than the other in an unbonded system)

The fact that the pump is double insulated does nothing to protect the swimmer in the water or getting out of the water. It only protects someone who is touching the pump.

i see thank you
so both GFI and bonding will both and separtely protect someone touching that conductive surface

That does not mean it is some how a safer pump to use.

You are confusing the lack of the requirements as something that equals a safer product that's not how it works.

Got it thanks, so its at least definitely safer to use if you were to touch the pump. vs an upgraded metal pump


I guess the last hypothetical that @phonedave made me think of is...
In his example, an A/C unit can cause/create a voltage potential difference, then in theory could an upgraded metal pool pump also cause this as well, where a double insulated plastic intex pump cannot...in the situation where you are NOT touching that pump? And therefore that intex pump is safer (vs a metal upgraded pump) in that regard even where you are not touching it (just like the A/C example)?
These pool pumps are usually pretty close to the pools compared to A/C units etc.

or is this not a significant concern compared to a greater concern of bonding a pump to prevent a shock if touching it.

 

[phonedave]

love this explanation thank you



So in this example, an A/C unit can cause/create a voltage potential difference, then in theory could an upgraded metal pool pump also cause this as well, where a double insulated plastic intex pump cannot...in the situation where you are NOT touching that pump? And therefore that intex pump is safer (vs a metal upgraded pump) in that regard even where you are not touching it (just like your A/C example)?

No, ANYTHING that has power delivered to it (intended or otherwise) can cause a potential difference. Say the cord feeding your plastic pump wears in a spot and the hot lead touches the ground, it is now causing a potential difference. Same thing as if one of the hot legs in your A/C condenser feed touched earth. A TREE could be the cause of a potential difference - your service feed rubs against the tree and becomes bare, you have a rainstorm and the moss of the tree becomes wet and now the ground is energized, you walk across the ground and stick your hand into the pool and get zapped. The electrons coming down the tree and through the ground are now going to flow through your body into the pool. If the pool water was bonded to the ground then there would be no difference in potential and nothing would flow.

The CHANCES of it happening with a double insulated device vs a regular device are (likely) smaller, but are still non-zero. If you have all of the electrical parts of a device encased in a plastic covering, then there is less of a chance of electricity coming in contact with the ground than with a device that has a metal housing. However, these double insulted pumps still have line cords, ventilation slots (where conductive debris can lodge), plastic wears off, etc. So to say "a double insulated Intex pump CANNOT" is not a factual statement. I would hazard that the chances of a double insulated pump causing a earth potential difference is less than that of a regular pump, but the probability of both are still within the same range.

As far as saying is it safer, that is like trying to argue that it is safer for you to drive with a set of hockey shoulder pads on compared to no shoulder pads, while trying to justify not wearing a seatbelt.

 

[mguzzy]

As far as saying is it safer, that is like trying to argue that it is safer for you to drive with a set of hockey shoulder pads on compared to no shoulder pads, while trying to justify not wearing a seatbelt.

+1

 

[AGP noob]

The CHANCES of it happening with a double insulated device vs a regular device are (likely) smaller, but are still non-zero. If you have all of the electrical parts of a device encased in a plastic covering, then there is less of a chance of electricity coming in contact with the ground than with a device that has a metal housing. However, these double insulted pumps still have line cords, ventilation slots (where conductive debris can lodge), plastic wears off, etc. So to say "a double insulated Intex pump CANNOT" is not a factual statement. I would hazard that the chances of a double insulated pump causing a earth potential difference is less than that of a regular pump, but the probability of both are still within the same range.

As far as saying is it safer, that is like trying to argue that it is safer for you to drive with a set of hockey shoulder pads on compared to no shoulder pads, while trying to justify not wearing a seatbelt.

great explanation thank you!