Blank slate/Pool build in Maryland

[Captchaos]

CaptChaos,
Lots of pipes at the bottom of the pool. I'm still learning about pool construction but can you tell me what are all the pipes for?
Also, are there 4 main drains?

You already had a pool close to those trees, how are you planning to combat the MD fall and all the leaves? you going to cover it early? Got a good cover coming for it?
I did not close and cover my pool until November last year. Water is great with an early opening but I'm thinking I may put the cover on sooner than that next fall.

To be perfectly honest with you, I don’t really know exactly what each pipe in the bottom of the pool is. When the builder was going over it with me during the spray paint phase, he told me there were two drains and two returns in the pool. I am now seeing that we chose the right builder, because he seems more concerned about building it right than profit. I believe some of the piping in the bottom is connected to the waterfall as he is adamant that he build the pool “the way you want to use it in real life.” The waterfall is on its own system and can be turned on independently from the regular filter.

Regarding the leaves in the pool, we had a pool at our old house too but under more trees. Both of them were the temporary types (Intel/Coleman) that were removed for the winter and stored. I typically did this in late September or early October. By that time in our area, most of the leaves are still on the trees. I have left it up too long on occasion and wound up with lots of leaves in the pool and had to use a plastic rake to get them out. Those pools didn’t have a particularly strong filtering system and no automatic cleaner.

Our new inground pool is further away than the old above ground one and I expect to close it in October as well. I don’t anticipate too many leaves in it, but I won’t know for sure until the fall!

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Heatpumps suck for household heat because they do not work very well when it is cold, which is when you need them. But for pools, it is the exact opposite. You are using them for heat, in the summer. So they work much better. They will still struggle to do much in the off months, and they will not heat very fast, but they will heat to and maintain 90 with no problems. You will need to start them 3-4 weeks before you want to swim. And again, they will not extend your season by much.

Yeah I figured a heat pump would work much better in the summer for heat and ours seem to do well above 45 (and they sufficiently heat the House well below those temps too) but they do seem to have a lot of issues as well. It seems I am constantly fixing them.

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Don't worry, they will. Went to visit my MIL in Florida a couple of winters ago and my son would not get out of the pool...the water was 55-60 degrees the entire week.

At the cost of this thing I’m pretty sure I’m going to be getting in it regardless of the temperature as long as I don’t freeze to death.

 

[Captchaos]

Some more bad news from the electrician as I spoke to him before he left. I asked where the timer was and he informed me that there was no timer (what??). He went on to say that “most people just run the filter 24 hours a day for the first year to help the plaster cure.” First, I don’t recall reading that here so it seems far-fetched. Sure maybe the first month or so but for the first year??

Second, I have a single speed, 2HP pump. Running it 24x7 will probably bankrupt me aside from being incredibly wasteful.

Why would anyone not include a timer on a new pool install?

 

[Melnic]

Variable speed pump!
I think BGE and Pepco still has the rebate.

 

[jimim]

a huge +1 from above. i love my variable speed pump. my builder had a 2 or 3 speed, i don't remember and I remember from here how everyone says variable now. So I had him change it. so glad I did for the extra like 400 dollars worth its weight! i run my pump right now 24/7 at 1500 RPM and it uses barely any energy. Keeps my water constantly moving. When I drop chemicals I up it to 3220 for 60 mins and it automatically goes back down cause I have it setup as a "egg timer" in screen logic. when I want to skim the water cause it might be dirty on top I hit another egg times for 3 hrs at 3220 and then it goes back to the 24/7 program. it's very nice.

 

[Captchaos]

Variable speed pump!
I think BGE and Pepco still has the rebate.

Yes, I believe that rebate is statewide courtesy of the Maryland program (that we all are subsidizing with the ridiculous fee they are adding to each and every one of our bills every month but don’t get me started on that!!!).

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a huge +1 from above. i love my variable speed pump. my builder had a 2 or 3 speed, i don't remember and I remember from here how everyone says variable now. So I had him change it. so glad I did for the extra like 400 dollars worth its weight! i run my pump right now 24/7 at 1500 RPM and it uses barely any energy. Keeps my water constantly moving. When I drop chemicals I up it to 3220 for 60 mins and it automatically goes back down cause I have it setup as a "egg timer" in screen logic. when I want to skim the water cause it might be dirty on top I hit another egg times for 3 hrs at 3220 and then it goes back to the 24/7 program. it's very nice.

I will almost certainly be adding a variable speed pump. The reason I didn’t add it during the build is because the upgrade was $1200. It worked out to a lot of electricity usage to make up the cost difference but that was when I was planning to only run the pump for 1-1.5 turnovers per day.

 

[jimim]

Yes, I believe that rebate is statewide courtesy of the Maryland program (that we all are subsidizing with the ridiculous fee they are adding to each and every one of our bills every month but don’t get me started on that!!!).

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I will almost certainly be adding a variable speed pump. The reason I didn’t add it during the build is because the upgrade was $1200. It worked out to a lot of electricity usage to make up the cost difference but that was when I was planning to only run the pump for 1-1.5 turnovers per day.

1200 for the pump switch out? talk to your builder if so. that seems crazy expensive?

 

[Melnic]

Last August I was charged $1700 for pentair VS2 installed when my fixed speed died.
They did it the next day
With rebates it cost me $1200
I was leaving in vacation so I did not have time to learn and do it myself.
It’s really easy around here to find companies to charge a lot

 

[kimkats]

We do not run our pumps 24/7 on the most part. The pump will need to run for a couple/few 24 hour days in the beginning but after then nope.

Kim

 

[PoolGate]

To be perfectly honest with you, I don’t really know exactly what each pipe in the bottom of the pool is. When the builder was going over it with me during the spray paint phase, he told me there were two drains and two returns in the pool. I am now seeing that we chose the right builder, because he seems more concerned about building it right than profit. I believe some of the piping in the bottom is connected to the waterfall as he is adamant that he build the people “the way you want to use it in real life.” The waterfall is on its own system and can be turned on independently from the regular filter.

Regarding the leaves in the pool, we had a pool at our old house too but under more trees. Both of them were the temporary types (Intel/Coleman) that were removed for the winter and stored. I typically did this in late September or early October. By that time in our area, most of the leaves are still on the trees. I have left it up too long on occasion and wound up with lots of leaves in the pool and had to use a plastic rake to get them out. Those pools didn’t have a particularly strong filtering system and no automatic cleaner.

Our new inground pool is further away than the old above ground one and I expect to close it in October as well. I don’t anticipate too many leaves in it, but I won’t know for sure until the fall!

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Yeah I figured a heat pump would work much better in the summer for heat and ours seem to do well above 45 (and they sufficiently heat the House well below those temps too) but they do seem to have a lot of issues as well. It seems I am constantly fixing them.

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At the cost of this thing I’m pretty sure I’m going to be getting in it regardless of the temperature as long as I don’t freeze to death.

We went through the same thing with the automation. Automation takes the place of a timer. I would seriously consider adding a basic automation system as this will be so much better especially with the pump timers builtin and the ability to turn on/off water features. Keep in mind the $400 rebate for a VSP from your utility. Also keep in mind that they automation system includes the electric panel so their is some savings from that as well. When we got ours, we did not spec out automation. I went to an outside company and got a quote to come in after the build was done an upgrade me. They quoted like $3500 for the iAqualink system and VSP pump. I showed this to the builder and he matched the price. I actually did lose out a bit since with the outside place I was going to be able to keep the old pump and with the builder I lost it. No biggie!

The issue with Heat Pumps is people are incorrectly led to believe that they require maintenance. They require 0 maintenance. 0. none. nada. They are a completely closed systems and are designed to run until they are dead and fail with absolutely no interaction from the owner. It is a total waste of money to get a maintenance contract on them and actually counter-productive to actually do any maintenance. (This goes for both home and pool use) You just need to make sure not too many leaves clog up the vents and that's it (and change the air filters in the home unit).

 

[Captchaos]

1200 for the pump switch out? talk to your builder if so. that seems crazy expensive?

That’s what I originally thought as well (and I verified this twice) but now I am wondering if he was going to include some automation with it too. Based on what I know of this builder he doesn’t skimp on anything.

Yesterday when I was making the electrician move the panel, he said, “Oh, I don’t know if the builder is gonna like it here, he’s very particular about how things look.” This builder was also very careful on where to install the equipment. Everybody else we met with insisted on shoving everything right next to the pool. This guy was unquestionably making sure it was hidden away even though that made all of the pipe runs a lot longer.

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We do not run our pumps 24/7 on the most part. The pump will need to run for a couple/few 24 hour days in the beginning but after then nope.

Kim

Thanks Kim, glad to hear that. I’ll ask more questions and look more into it around here when the time comes.

 

[Captchaos]

We went through the same thing with the automation. Automation takes the place of a timer. I would seriously consider adding a basic automation system as this will be so much better especially with the pump timers builtin and the ability to turn on/off water features. Keep in mind the $400 rebate for a VSP from your utility. Also keep in mind that they automation system includes the electric panel so their is some savings from that as well. When we got ours, we did not spec out automation. I went to an outside company and got a quote to come in after the build was done an upgrade me. They quoted like $3500 for the iAqualink system and VSP pump. I showed this to the builder and he matched the price. I actually did lose out a bit since with the outside place I was going to be able to keep the old pump and with the builder I lost it. No biggie!

The issue with Heat Pumps is people are incorrectly led to believe that they require maintenance. They require 0 maintenance. 0. none. nada. They are a completely closed systems and are designed to run until they are dead and fail with absolutely no interaction from the owner. It is a total waste of money to get a maintenance contract on them and actually counter-productive to actually do any maintenance. (This goes for both home and pool use) You just need to make sure not too many leaves clog up the vents and that's it (and change the air filters in the home unit).

What is considered “basic automation?” We don’t have a spa so all we need to do is control the two pumps and lights. There are some heavy duty Zwave modules that are about $90 each that I can tie into my home automation system which would allow elaborate scheduling, Alexa integration, and remote access. I’m sure this isn’t as good as pool automation from Jandy but it might do the trick and is a lot cheaper.

Regarding heat pumps, I have never bought into the maintenance schedules either. But it seems that I am constantly fixing them.

 

[PoolGate]

What is considered “basic automation?” We don’t have a spa so all we need to do is control the two pumps and lights. There are some heavy duty Zwave modules that are about $90 each that I can tie into my home automation system which would allow elaborate scheduling, Alexa integration, and remote access. I’m sure this isn’t as good as pool automation from Jandy but it might do the trick and is a lot cheaper.

Regarding heat pumps, I have never bought into the maintenance schedules either. But it seems that I am constantly fixing them.

Something like the Z4. Under $1000 complete.

https://www.jandy.com/en/products/controls/aqualink-z4

https://sunplay.com/products/zodiac-aqualink-z4-pool-or-spa-system-aqz4-p?variant=6882367275043&gclid=CjwKCAjwwuvWBRBZEiwALXqjw0kT_KrZuzdl7eHyIJWbpsW-gTdWO2cynKM8skx-p3JBwhBg_aSvLhoCw-4QAvD_BwE

 

[Captchaos]

Something like the Z4. Under $1000 complete.

https://www.jandy.com/en/products/controls/aqualink-z4

https://sunplay.com/products/zodiac...W-gTdWO2cynKM8skx-p3JBwhBg_aSvLhoCw-4QAvD_BwE

Thanks, I wasn’t aware that those were available. I’ll check into them. At a quick glance I can’t tell if it requires a separate new power center or will work with the circuit breaker one that was installed yesterday. Also I believe the switch for the lights is located with the convenience outlet which is halfway between the equipment and pool. I wonder how that would work to control the lights.

 

[PoolGate]

Thanks, I wasn’t aware that those were available. I’ll check into them. At a quick glance I can’t tell if it requires a separate new power center or will work with the circuit breaker one that was installed yesterday. Also I believe the switch for the lights is located with the convenience outlet which is halfway between the equipment and pool. I wonder how that would work to control the lights.

It is very sad to me that a PB will put in a $75k pool and then don't include a $450 automation system.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

It is very sad to me that a PB will put in a $75k pool and then don't include a $450 automation system.

Oh come'on... we've seen them cheap out and give out sample test strips as their "test kit provided by PB". So automation is a step up on the cheapness scale.

Maddie

 

[Captchaos]

It is very sad to me that a PB will put in a $75k pool and then don't include a $450 automation system.

Actually the cost thus far is quite a bit lower than that and I was pretty adamant that we keep costs down.

 

[Captchaos]

Here is where I had the electrician install the "power center." Not exactly ideal but he had it on the left hand side, right next to the pipes which is exactly where I was going to install my fence.





Plenty of room in there for my Zwave modules if I go that route:

 

[PoolGate]

Here is where I had the electrician install the "power center." Not exactly ideal but he had it on the left hand side, right next to the pipes which is exactly where I was going to install my fence.

Sweet! Are you still considering that basic Jandy control system?

 

[Captchaos]

Sweet! Are you still considering that basic Jandy control system?

Yes I am. I've been struggling with the whole variable speed and automation thing for awhile now and it has ramped up even more lately.

Variable Speed VS Single Speed
The electrician told me the other day that "most people just run their pumps 24x7" and when I asked the builder he said that was correct. I asked if that was just during startup and his response was that it is to run 24x7 "forever." I've been enlightened here at TFP but I'm wondering if I should follow his advice on startup to avoid any issues. Based on my research, a single speed 2HP pump draws about 2000-2200 watts. Running it 24x7 would be $200-250/month in electricty at 13.3 cents per kWh. I see many reporting their variable speed pump is drawing 150 watts at 1100-1200 RPM so the savings is significant. Paired with the $400 rebate from my electric company, a variable speed pump will pay for itself ($1000 - $400 = $600 net) in approximately 4-5 months based on 24x7 run times. However, it seems that is unnecessary and muddies things up a bit. If I run it 6 hours per day, that lengthens the payback time a lot. This is hard because I have no idea how the pool responds to longer or shorter run times since it isn't open yet. Also, I will probably not have a warranty if I install it myself.

As a reminder, the pool builder quoted $1200 to upgrade to a Jandy variable speed pump. In hindsight I should have asked if that included any sort of automation. I did today and haven't received a response yet. The $1200 number makes more sense if it included basic automation. I am not sure if that price included the $400 electric company rebate as that applies to both professionally and self-installed variable speed pumps. Local HVAC companies like to quote post-rebate prices in this area.

Pool Automation
Two options here:
1. Zwave automation using my existing Vera Edge. Aeon makes a "heavy duty" (40 amp) Zwave switch that I could use to turn the pumps on or off.

Pros​

• 
  [*=1]Scheduling using Vera scenes. Run for 2 hours 10-12, 2 hours 2-4, 2 hours 4-6, etc. Turn the lights on blue, etc.
  [*=1]Alexa-integration. Anyone in the house (kids and wife) can tell Alexa to turn on the waterfall or lights (including specific colors by power toggling, I think?). Create rules in the Vera to turn the 1HP waterfall pump off after 2 hours to reduce energy consumption.
  [*=1]Energy Usage Monitoring. Monitor energy usage and plot it on a graph. (See how much I am losing with my single speed pump in efficiency)
  [*=1]Remote Access. Remotely check on status when on vacation or away from home, etc.
  [*=1]Cheaper. $90 per heavy duty module (pumps). About $30 per regular switch (lights).

Cons
​

• 
  [*=1]Variable speed pump functions are limited compared to Jandy automation and somewhat duplicated because the VSP will have some sort of controller for programming. (Energy usage, scheduling, other stuff?)
  [*=1]More complicated to control and maybe more complicated to setup scenes vs. a Jandy automation setup using a single iOS app?

2. Jandy Control (Basic)

Pros
​

• 
  [*=1]Scheduling and complete control of functions with like-branded equipment.
  [*=1]Energy usage monitoring.
  [*=1]Remote access.

Cons
​

• 
  [*=1]No warranty as I will install it myself.
  [*=1]No Alexa-integration (more complicated for family members to use).
  [*=1]There may be no option to turn off something like the waterfall pump after two hours to save energy (kids will leave it on all day long).
  [*=1]Potentially complicated set up/Confusing components. It's unclear to me exactly what I will need in terms of components.
  [*=1]More expensive. $450+ $709+

​

As you can see, no shortage of thoughts on this subject!

 

[Captchaos]

Doing more research on the AquaLink Z4 system, it looks like I would need the part numbers that end in "i" for control from a mobile device. Without that it seems pretty antiquated. It looks like those start at $709.