Another New Pool in Frisco, TX

georgewillow

Member
Jan 4, 2020
9
Texas
Hey guys, yes this is another pool build in North Texas. We've had 3 builders give us proposals so far and will probably get one more proposal. So far this is our favorite design. I just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on the design and anything else we should be thinking about.



My thoughts/questions
  • Thinking about asking them to remove the ozone and Nature 2 Fusion and going with a SWG
  • If we do salt water I want to make sure the materials we've picked will handle that ok.
  • Also thinking about changing the 3.5 ft depth portion to 4 ft so it would be 4 x 6.5 x 4
  • Not being a diving pool I'm a little concerned with the North Texas heat making the pool too hot in the summer.
  • A little worried this pool will feel too small in its current iteration. We had an alternative proposal that had a larger deeper pool for a similar price, but the overall design was much less appealing.
Design stats:
Perimeter: 113'
Surface Area: 663 sqft
Dimensions: 39' x 20'
Depth: 3.5'- 6'6" - 4'
Gallons: 17,000

Equipment list:
A&A In Floor Cleaning & Circulation Systems
Jandy DEV60 Filter w/back wash line
Jandy Jxi Nk Heater 400k btu natural gas connection.
(1) Jandy Variable Speed E Pumps
(2) Jandy Variable Speed Flow Pro (Water Feature Pump)
Jandy RS 6 Control System with iAqualink (APP Control)
(2) Venturi Skimmers & AVSC Drains(safety rated drain)
(6) Total Nichless LED 20W Lights(4 in Pool / 1 in Spa /1 in grotto)
(2) LED bubbler
A&A QuickPure3 Ozone Oxidation system
Nature 2 Fusion
(1) Intermatic X Former - 300w Transformers
Manual Fill Hosebib Line

Thanks!
 

Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
18,768
Bedford, TX
GW,

Welcome to TFP... A great place to learn all about your new pool build.. :shark:

I would never, ever, install an in floor cleaning system.. Who's idea was this, yours or your pool builders?? Water powered cleaners use 60 year technology, it is like using an old black rotary dial party line instead of a cell phone.. I suggest you dump the IFCS and move into this Century and buy a Robot...

With a Robot you do not have to run your pumps to clean your pool. Robots will do a better job and they also scrub your walls and waterline tile.

My main complaint about IFCS is that they make the plumbing much more complicated than it needs to be. And once it is installed you are stuck with it for life, as all your return plumbing is integrated into the system...

I agree with your decision to go with a saltwater pool over a Ozone/UV system. Just make sure you get a cell that is rated for at least 2 x the volume of your pool. So in your case you would need a 40K cell. Do not let them install anything smaller. Also nothing that requires mineral cartridges.

I used to be a big DE filter guy, until I installed the pool at my current house.. We went with a large cartridge filter.. I thought for sure that I would not like it, but I was so wrong. I have two rent house pools that have DE filters and can't wait until they bite the dust so I can replace them with cartridge filters.. With a cartridge filter you do not have a multiport valve to go bad or leak, the plumbing is simpler, and you do not have to mess with the DE or worry about installing a backwash line to your sewer. Simple is almost always better.. That said, if you really want a DE filter, it will work just fine.

And finally... there is a fine line between a large pile of rocks and a beautiful waterfall.. Make sure you see samples of the waterfalls that your pool builder has already built.

And finally, my last finally.. :mrgreen: Have you every been in a gunite Spa before? If not, I suggest that you try one before you buy one.

Good luck with your pool build,

Jim R.
 

YippeeSkippy

Mod Squad
LifeTime Supporter
Jan 17, 2012
14,437
Evans, Georgia
Hey there George :handwave:

I think your pool depth will be fine at 4' to 6'. Because of the way you describe it (4-6-4) If you want it to be easy to play sports like volleyball, one side could be 3'6", but that can limit swimming for some since the shallow depth can cause knuckle scraping. Although for sports it allows shorter folks to play on that side.

Your pool may warm up a bit but we know a few tricks to help cool 'em down. Running a simple handmade fountain overnight dropped our pool temp 5 degrees.

You will hate that In-floor system and curse the installer when it breaks down.

Salt water is ideal, but you don't mention what your decking is to be? Cement? fancy pancy stone?? Tile? Some stonework does not do well with salt, but others are fine. Its all about figuring out which one to use. I'm simple and we have cement. My only regret is that I didn't have it stamped and stained at the time of installation (the PB mentioned it but I hadn't a clue what he was talking about. He missed an upsale with me for sure, had he been clearer)

UV- stay away. Don'tcha think y'all get enough FREE UV from the sun as it is?? ;). They *are* helpful for indoor pools that don't get sun.

Ozone is not appropriate either. It would never be big enough to actually provide effective service.

Looking forward to following your build :)

Maddie :flower:
 

kimkats

Mod Squad
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
46,346
Tallahassee, FL
What a pretty design! Do you have a paper copy of it? I would like to see that to make sure of a couple of things.

I like your idea of the 4x6x4 depths. Make sure those are water depth (Water is halfway up the skimmer opening. Some measure from bottom to the coping)

Ditch the ozone/uv and go SWG all of way!

Kim:kim:
 

georgewillow

Member
Jan 4, 2020
9
Texas
Thanks for the responses!

I guess I need to do some more research here, but I don't really understand the robot cleaners. Do you leave them in all the time or do you put them a few hours each day. Also what would be wrong with having both systems?

Pool builder says they've moved away from salt water because of damage to stone and the need to seal the stonework occasionally. Still though they said they would install the SWG if we wanted it.

@kimkats Thanks! I don't have a paper copy yet. Hopefully can more details soon. Also want to get one more proposal from a different builder although I really like this design.
 

Jimrahbe

Mod Squad
TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Jul 7, 2014
18,768
Bedford, TX
George.

Saltwater does not damage stone, otherwise the Atlantic and Pacific oceans would have dissolved the US by now... :mrgreen: Sea water is 35000 ppm and saltwater pools are about 3400 ppm. About the same as your tears... Last time I cried, it did not eat my cheeks off..

The main problem with saltwater pools are the pool builders.. They have no clue how they work and were selling them on the theory that you turn them on and that they would run forever and nothing else needed to be done.. That is just not the case. All the SWCG does is to make chlorine out of the saltwater.. It is the same chlorine that you would get from tablets or from Liquid Chlorine. The pool owners still have to routinely test and make sure all the chemicals are in balance..

I have three saltwater pools and have had zero corrosion or erosion problems..

Tell us why you want an IFCS... Almost all of what their marketing says is just one word short of a lie... :)

Thanks,

Jim R.
 

georgewillow

Member
Jan 4, 2020
9
Texas
@YippeeSkippy Here are the preliminary material selections.

Interior: Micro Fusion / TBD Color
Coping: Leuders Limestone
Tile: Decorative Ceramic Tile
Veneer: Lueders Limestone TBD
Decking: 1300 sqft of Concrete Pavers in Herringbone pattern
 

georgewillow

Member
Jan 4, 2020
9
Texas
@Jimrahbe I hear you, but I don't know what the motivation would be for pool builders to steer away from saltwater as many in the area seem to. I mean I think they would like to sell you the additional equipment.
 

VOSE Okie

Gold Supporter
Jun 20, 2017
76
Frisco/TX
We are almost done and will be adding water on Wed. We went with a salt system and we also went with in-floor cleaning based on others we know that have it and we have been in their pools often. It’s worked great for them. We are also in Frisco.
 

YippeeSkippy

Mod Squad
LifeTime Supporter
Jan 17, 2012
14,437
Evans, Georgia
@YippeeSkippy Here are the preliminary material selections.

Interior: Micro Fusion / TBD Color
Coping: Leuders Limestone
Tile: Decorative Ceramic Tile
Veneer: Lueders Limestone TBD
Decking: 1300 sqft of Concrete Pavers in Herringbone pattern
You will have no problems with salt on the decking concrete pavers or the interior.
I'm not as familiar with Leuders Limestone....but there would be my concern. Maybe someone else is more up to date on that stuff and will reply?

Maddie :flower:
 

JRB100

Gold Supporter
Mar 20, 2019
69
Dallas, TX
I have an A&A in-floor system (1998) and am about to have it updated to the newest components (pop-ups, actuator, leaf vac, channel drains). (Also replacing coping with leuders limestone...good choice!) I have a love-hate relationship my system, but I still really like it...especially when it comes to heating the pool. I'm in Far North Dallas and we are in the pool as many days as possible (into November) so water temperature is a big deal. The warranty on A&A parts is very good. I have had very good results ordering parts and replacing parts that have worn-out. (I have also seen the quality of the A&A components improve over the last 21 years.)

I found that if the water temperature ever got too warm (rarely), I only had to run the fountain more or increase the water flow to the fountain and it would aerate the water enough to cool it.

I think you will find pool owners are either in-floor supporters or robot supporters. So I would say to go with whichever you prefer. While having my pool designed, I was warned about having "all that plumbing". It has never been an issue. I would say it is more important to have an installer that knows how to properly install A&A systems. In fact, the only plumbing issue to occur has been with the auto-fill, which I really do not need.

Enjoy the swim!
 

georgewillow

Member
Jan 4, 2020
9
Texas
I have an A&A in-floor system (1998) and am about to have it updated to the newest components (pop-ups, actuator, leaf vac, channel drains). (Also replacing coping with leuders limestone...good choice!) I have a love-hate relationship my system, but I still really like it...especially when it comes to heating the pool. I'm in Far North Dallas and we are in the pool as many days as possible (into November) so water temperature is a big deal. The warranty on A&A parts is very good. I have had very good results ordering parts and replacing parts that have worn-out. (I have also seen the quality of the A&A components improve over the last 21 years.)

I found that if the water temperature ever got too warm (rarely), I only had to run the fountain more or increase the water flow to the fountain and it would aerate the water enough to cool it.

I think you will find pool owners are either in-floor supporters or robot supporters. So I would say to go with whichever you prefer. While having my pool designed, I was warned about having "all that plumbing". It has never been an issue. I would say it is more important to have an installer that knows how to properly install A&A systems. In fact, the only plumbing issue to occur has been with the auto-fill, which I really do not need.

Enjoy the swim!
Thanks! That's good to know
 
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setsailsoon

Gold Supporter
LifeTime Supporter
TFP Guide
Oct 25, 2015
3,337
Stuart/FL
George,

Welcome aboard and congrats on the new pool. Here are my comments on your questions:
  • Thinking about asking them to remove the ozone and Nature 2 Fusion and going with a SWG
    • Definitely to do not use Nature 2 Fusion. It's a mineral system TFP advises against this. Go with SWG. They're great. If you don't do it now you will eventually change and you'll wish you had done it from the start (I know I did it the hard way too after 4 long years lugging chlorine jugs!)
  • If we do salt water I want to make sure the materials we've picked will handle that ok.
    • If you have materials that can't stand up to salt you probably shouldn't be using them anyway.
  • Also thinking about changing the 3.5 ft depth portion to 4 ft so it would be 4 x 6.5 x 4
    • Good idea.
  • Not being a diving pool I'm a little concerned with the North Texas heat making the pool too hot in the summer.
    • That can happen, keep the beer in an ice chest. Get a Margarita machine.
  • A little worried this pool will feel too small in its current iteration. We had an alternative proposal that had a larger deeper pool for a similar price, but the overall design was much less appealing.
    • Sorry, I have no input on this.
  • Other:
    • If you ever want to DIY upgrade or repair in the future stay away from Jandy. A few years ago they cut warranty to zero for DIY or online purchase of their equipment. It's getting hard to find many items online. Pentair and Hayward make great products and many here use both. I believe Intellicenter is the best automation currently available.
    • Definitely go with a VS pump. Pentair's 3 hp VS pump is as good as it gets.
    • Get a copy of the builder's contract and make sure the terms are fair. This usually means the terms need to change a little since their written for the builder by his attorney. Check to understand what the warranty means, payment terms are reasonable and never require payment before work is inspected and verified by you or your inspector for quality. Require a reasonable performance test prior to last 10% payment. Define it simply: Must hold water, equipment must work, finish and workmanship must meet specifications. Keep terms as simple as possible and don't sign 'till you understand every word. Don't take this to mean I expect a contentious relationship. On the contrary, if the contract is fair to both parties and you plus your pool are a good "fit" for the builder you should develop a great relationship and enjoy the build plus learn a LOT!
I hope this is helpful.

Chris
 

JJ_Tex

Bronze Supporter
Jul 17, 2019
1,537
Prosper, TX (DFW)
Hey neighbor - Cool design. I love my robot and my salt water, but I would be a bit concerned with the robot cord getting caught up in that table (or a polaris too). Good luck with your decisions.
 

georgewillow

Member
Jan 4, 2020
9
Texas
I guess I don't understand the drawback to trichlor with an automatic feeder. So you might build up CYA and have to drain some water. That doesn't sound so bad. The alternative being corrosive salt water or putting in liquid chlorine every day? Unofficial survey of my neighborhood via facebook 80% of the pools around here use trichlor pucks with feeders and local pool builders regularly steer people away from salt water. Not trying to start a fight here, but I've talked to 4 pool builders and none of them recommend salt water even though they will install SWG's if requested. I'm completely open to going with a SWG, but theres a disconnect between the recommendations on this board and reality at least in my area. If it was such a slam dunk to go with salt water why aren't all pools using SWG's. It's not like it's an expensive piece of equipment compared to the cost of the pool. I also don't think there's any motivation for the the local pool builders to steer away from SWG's unless they had some real issues with salt water.
 

Bvacchiano

Silver Supporter
Apr 6, 2018
273
Sugar Land, Texas
How about the cost of the infloor??? Several of the quotes I got wanted an additional $8k-$10k for it. I told them they were ... crazy. Lol I took the extra money and bought a Chiller and upgraded to SWG. My buddy tries the “fountain” chilling in the 105 degree Houston summers. It chills the water like 2 degrees. He likes to swim in my pool in the summer where the Chiller keeps it at 82 degrees!
 

setsailsoon

Gold Supporter
LifeTime Supporter
TFP Guide
Oct 25, 2015
3,337
Stuart/FL
I guess I don't understand the drawback to trichlor with an automatic feeder. So you might build up CYA and have to drain some water. That doesn't sound so bad. The alternative being corrosive salt water or putting in liquid chlorine every day? Unofficial survey of my neighborhood via facebook 80% of the pools around here use trichlor pucks with feeders and local pool builders regularly steer people away from salt water. Not trying to start a fight here, but I've talked to 4 pool builders and none of them recommend salt water even though they will install SWG's if requested. I'm completely open to going with a SWG, but theres a disconnect between the recommendations on this board and reality at least in my area. If it was such a slam dunk to go with salt water why aren't all pools using SWG's. It's not like it's an expensive piece of equipment compared to the cost of the pool. I also don't think there's any motivation for the the local pool builders to steer away from SWG's unless they had some real issues with salt water.
George,

I think there are are two parts to the answer to your question. First part is it's not that trichlor won't work. I know several people that use pucks successfully (including my brother in Flower Mound). Problem is the builder knew nothing about how to do it and the kit supplied didn't test for CYA. So his pool turned green after CYA got sky high. Builder tried to fix then failed and sent him to pool store. They tried to fix and finally after mega $ of chemicals that didn't solve the problem he drained and replaced all the water. He did this routine every year. Not the easiest way to operate a 28000 gallon pool. When he told me about the issue I explained the CYA relationship and he opted to start testing for CYA and partial draining appropriately. He's never had a green pool since. They use this routine because they don't want to lug chlorine and they don't like the slippery feel of salt water. It's pretty rare but some people don't like it. My wife loves it. Say's it feels like a spa and she'd never let me switch back.

So the second part is this. It's also not that swg is bad. Builders build, they're not often skilled in chemistry, equipment maintenance, and over-all pool operation. Running high CYA is proven to reduce effectiveness of chlorine disinfection. It has also been proven as the cause of infection from pools. Most times the "infection" is just an algae invasion. Not super harmful but real inconvenient. But there are documented cases where the infection was way worse. It's a real hazard and if the owner knows about it and tests for CYA it's easy to avoid. TFP methods (liquid or salt) completely avoid this and are completely safe to finishes as well.

These are the facts and I really don't know why a lot of builders still resist swg. I think it's mostly ignorance and it is definitely changing. As salt cell technology improved more and more people are changing. Other things are changing too such as VS pumps. They save owners a LOT of operating cost and have been around for at least 10 years and are finally catching on with builders. So the fact that most people are doing something else doesn't always mean it's right. I think this applies to salt, VS pumps, floor drains to mention a few.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris
 
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JJ_Tex

Bronze Supporter
Jul 17, 2019
1,537
Prosper, TX (DFW)
George - Its true that most people around here use pucks (and in most parts of the country), mainly because they are convenient. I would say the typical life-cycle for those people is:

1. Maintain your pool with pucks and the basic FC & PH test the builder gives you. Throw in a shock every now and then for good measure.
2. After say 1-3 years of this your CYA gets high (but you dont know it because you are just testing FC & PH). Then you start noticing some sort of algae problem, be it regular algae, mustard algae, black algae, or a combination of them all.
3. The pool store will then sell you all sorts of magic potions like algecides, clarifiers, shocks, etc. This isnt a one time thing and could go on for years, since the above will knock down the problem for a while but it will come back.
4. At some point the pool store will steer you in the right direction and say that you have "chlorine lock" due to high CYA and need to do a water exchange.
5. A few more magic potions later and your pool is back to where it should be. You are happy that the hundreds of dollars spent on magic potions fixed your pool and you then repeat the entire cycle.

It is your pool and you can manage it how you want to. If you want to use pucks, thats totally fine, just get a good test kit and manage your CYA so you dont get into the cycle above. Also be mindful of that a lot of pucks also have metals in them from added algecides, usually marketed as something "blue". Avoid those as the metals can also build up in your pool over the years and cause staining.

Good luck.