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Thread: Please help with Good, Better, Best "Ingredients"

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    Please help with Good, Better, Best "Ingredients"

    Well, it's been a while since I was involved with you all (other place). Anyway, sold the house so had no pool, but NOW we got moved in the new house and are getting bids for pools. Last time I knew nothing and just had them build it. Luckily, he did it right and was a great guy so I was very happy. Anyway, I got a bid from one guy and it was higher than I thought (no big deal though). He kept going on and on about his parts being better. That's fine and I will pay for the better stuff, BUT I would like to know from you all here if his stuff is genuinely better and worth the price difference. They use a Gray Hydra Panel instead of the competition's Black Pacific Panel for the pool walls. Says he runs all 2" lines instead of 1.5". No 90 degree bends. He makes them out of 2 45 degree bends. Says he uses ALL Jandy Valves, not PVC ball valves.
    My specs are:
    16 x 32 Grecian (diving)
    SWG (already have)
    Pentair Challenger 1 HP (I thought the 3/4 would be enough)
    Pentair FNS 48 DE Filter (multiport valve obviously)(I really want to try this DE thing)
    Probably just gonna buy the Blue Pearl afterwards. (never really liked the pressure cleaners)
    Any help that anyone could offer me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

    UW
    36,000 buster crabbe inground vinyl aquagenie
    1 hp hayward sand filter

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Please help with Good, Better, Best "Ingredients"

    First welcome to the forum

    I can't comment on the pool sides but I will chime in on the plumbing.

    When possible, the best rule of thumb when designing a plumbing system is go with Big Pipes and a Small Pump.

    Starting with the pipes:

    2x45's vs 1x90 is not much of change in head loss, ~10% for only the fitting, so I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that. Also, 90 degree fittings probably make up less than 20% of the total head loss so you may only be saving about 2% at best.

    The biggest change in head loss will come from larger pipes. For a typical pool, changing from 1.5" to 2" will reduce TOTAL head loss by 20% and increase flow rates by 34%. Changing from 1.5" to 2.5" will reduce head loss by 34% and increase flow rates by 44%. Larger pipe really shouldn't cost that much more but you will easily recoup the costs with lower energy usage.

    Also, it is a good idea to have full runs from pool to pad for each skimmer and main drain pair. This way you can isolate your suction paths if needed.

    On to pumps:

    The Challenger is a very high head pump so if you don't need the pressure for an infloor system or pressure side cleaner, then a Whisperflo might be a better pump. However, if you are planning for solar at any point, an Intelliflo is the way to go.

    Over the life of the pump, the Intelliflo should save you money over any other pump. Also, it allows you to set the optimum flow rates for desired turnover times and for solar efficiency.

    Even if you go with the Whisperflo, I would go for a 2 speed. You will be able to run on low speed for general circulation. A 3/4 HP would be more than enough unless you are planning for water features or a spa.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Please help with Good, Better, Best "Ingredients"

    Welcome to TFP.

    I only have a little to add to what mas985 already said. Jandy valves are better than PVC ball valves. The smaller pump will save you on electricity. You don't want the larger pump unless you have a spa, waterfall, therapy jets, solar, or some other similar water feature. I also don't know anything about the walls.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Please help with Good, Better, Best "Ingredients"

    Okay, so dont worry much about the 90s, but be sure I get the 2". Got it.
    Definitely want full runs on the plumbing. With a Jandy valve on each.
    Not real sure what high head means, but I assume that means a lot of pressure. Nor do I know what an infloor system is. It will be just a plain pool with skimmers(s) and drain(s).
    I actually bought the Blue Pearl online yesterday. I hope I didn't screw up. BTW: If anyone is interested, Walmart.com had them on clearance for $699.
    So I dont need a booster pump nor run the main pump for a cleaner. With this being said, you would recommend a 3/4 hp whisperflo? (wont be doing the solar thing) Is the Challenger not a 2 speed pump? I seem to remember reading that a 3/4 hp 2 speed pump on low speed would turn this pool over just fine. Correct me if I am wrong, but I wouldn't hardly ever need the high speed, right? Thank you so much for the info and please keep 'em coming.
    Anyone know who I might ask about the pool walls? (they are both saying their's is thicker with better bracing)

    UW
    36,000 buster crabbe inground vinyl aquagenie
    1 hp hayward sand filter

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Please help with Good, Better, Best "Ingredients"

    You shouldn't need high speed very often if you don't need high flow rates. With your setup about the only thing you would need high flow rates for is for faster clean up when the pool has an unusually high load. Otherwise you should be able to get away with low speed most of the time.

    However, consider this comparison of gallons pumped per kwh of energy use:

    3/4 HP Whisperflo @ full speed (77 GPM): ~3600 Gallons/kWh
    3/4 HP Whisperflo @ half speed (37 GPM): ~4900 Gallons/kWh

    Intelliflo @ 77 GPM/2600 RPM: ~ 3600 Gallons/kWh
    Intelliflo @ 37 GPM/1300 RPM: ~ 10000 Gallons/kWh
    Intelliflo @ 24 GPM/900 RPM: ~ 12800 Gallons/kWh

    The Intelliflo can be more than twice as efficient to run as half speed so it wouldn't take long to recoup the extra cost.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

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    Re: Please help with Good, Better, Best "Ingredients"

    Just a generic comment on the polymer walls...the Hydra and the Pacific (grey and black, respectively) are both good panels, and bracing systems are more the installer's preference than what you should worry about. Pacific offers a higher-quality panel to it's "Showcase" builders exclusively, and we call that the Graphex wall panel. If your builder (or supplier) is not a registered Showcase builder, it will not be routinely available to him, but possibly can be had. The Hydra is often a less costly panel than is the Pacific. If you are really hung up on this, I'll get actual specs to post in just a while.

    On edit: The Hydra Panel is polystyrene, and at the bottom of this link page, you can see the panel specs: http://www.hydrapools.com/hydra/panels.php.

    The Pacific Graphex is a stronger honecombed resin panel, but is more costly. Reference here:http://www.pacificpools.com/difference/graphex.cfm.

    But, it may be moot, if you don't have a Showcase builder. Regardless, either the regular Pacific or the Hydra will do you well.
    http://www.swimmingpool.com/

    "Leave the gun...take the cannolis"

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    Re: Please help with Good, Better, Best "Ingredients"

    Thank you very much budster. That's what I needed to know.

    Again, thank you to all for the info. It helped a lot. I dont know what's gotten in to me, but for some reason I have this itch to buy the kit and build/contract it myself. Suicide, I know. So I am sure I will have a ton of questions for you all.
    UW
    36,000 buster crabbe inground vinyl aquagenie
    1 hp hayward sand filter

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    Re: Please help with Good, Better, Best "Ingredients"

    Quote Originally Posted by underwater
    Thank you very much budster. That's what I needed to know.

    Again, thank you to all for the info. It helped a lot. I dont know what's gotten in to me, but for some reason I have this itch to buy the kit and build/contract it myself. Suicide, I know. So I am sure I will have a ton of questions for you all.
    UW
    Well, you are a glutton for punishment! You would not be the first, nor the last to DIY, and be a happy camper, but remember the old adage: "if it were easy, everybody would be doing it". If you can find a good "digger", and you are comfy with shoshing a cement truck hopper around the footings and braces, and can use a laser level properly, you've got a good start. A good vermiculite, or sand, or "poolcrete" trowelled bottom prior to the liner installation, and insure you've checked for any water table issues, "sugar sand" or stone/rock "in the hole", go for it!
    http://www.swimmingpool.com/

    "Leave the gun...take the cannolis"

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    Re: Please help with Good, Better, Best "Ingredients"

    Digger - check
    Cement work - check
    Laser Leverl - not a problem
    Pool Crete work - not so much (only hiccup so far)
    Just dug a pond. Sugar sand was 'bout 15' down. Never really found the water table. What's a rock?
    Thanks again,
    UW
    36,000 buster crabbe inground vinyl aquagenie
    1 hp hayward sand filter

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