Ultraguard Hi-Build Epoxy Coating?

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Wolfgang

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Jan 22, 2009
10
Central Florida
Hi - new to the forum, and after reading a lot of good info here, I've decided to test the waters with a question I still can't answer to my satisfaction... hopefully someone can help.

I have a 35 year old concrete/plaster IG pool, 18x36x8.5. I've spent a couple of months looking at my options for restoration. It's been lying up green for a few years now. The original plaster was painted once, about 10 years ago, with either an acrylic or a chlorinated rubber paint - can't tell which yet. That held up fairly well for about 4 years before blistering and chalking.

Here's where I am now: whatever I do, I'm going to need to drain, pressure wash, acid clean, etc. to remove the remainder of the old paint, and do a few plaster repairs. After a lot of research, the only 3 options I'd consider are: replastering, Ultraguard Epoxy/Polymer, or Poly One Coat Epoxy. I'm going to throw out some thoughts and hopefully get some from the pool brains here!

Plaster: I don't want to spend $10K for a replastering. From what I've found locally, this is what it would cost to have the surface prepped properly before replaster and have the job done right. I also am not crazy about having a somewhat rough surface that is porous and susceptible to leaf/acorn stains. If I could DIY the job, I probably would, but I wouldn't trust that I could do it well. Plaster obviously holds up very well - but from what I'm reading, a replaster not quite as well, especially not a DIY job, absent jackhammer style surface prep.

Ultraguard: To be honest, I'm leaning heavily toward this product. I've read what I think is every darn comment ever written about the stuff, but the only thing I CAN'T find is anyone who can say "I've had it on for 5+ years and it looks like the day I put it on." Most reviews are from folks who have put it on less than 2 years ago - and a lot of products will hold up for that long. I'm willing to put the time into a really good surface prep, but I don't want to spend $3K on materials unless I'm feeling pretty certain that it's going to be "good to go" for 10 years or more. Lots of stuff on their website, but there are few non-testimonial reviews that I can find. A lot seems to hinge on the surface prep - I'll do the job to the absolute best of my ability, but I don't know how finicky or forgiving it really is.

Poly One Coat: A little cheaper than Ultraguard, but it looks like there's no bonding undercoat that will help with preventing delamination down the road, so I'm wary of it. Nevertheless, it looks a whole lot better than acrylic, chlorinated rubber, or any of the other paints as far as how it will hold up.

So, with that background, any thoughts? Pool companies all recommend replastering (seems to be the only resurfacing they do). As opposed to painting, I'd agree - no comparison - but Ultraguard claims to be not only equal to, but superior to, replastering. They make a distinciton that Ultraguard is not a paint, but a 100% solids structural polymer coating. I've found only one example of an Ultraguard coating failure, and that was in Hawaii when it was applied in very high humidity (contrary to directions) - and even then, looks like Ultraguard replaced with new product.

For logistical reasons (small well, slow filling, not easy to get rid of drain water), I really, really, REALLY don't want to drain this pool EVER again (well, at least not for several years, anyway.) If anyone either has any first-hand experience or can point me to any links, (including any negative reviews) I'd love to see it to help me make my choice.
 
Hello and welcome to the forum!

We have some folks here who can probably give you good advice on your surface repair dilemma, but there aren't a lot of them and forum traffic is slow this time of year, so it might be a little while before you hear from them.

I can advise you on using your well to fill the pool, as I have a well myself. First, you need to have a complete test of the well water, including iron before you consider adding it to the pool. Well water usually has mineral issues which make it a last resort option for pool filling. Calcium and iron are two common problems, and iron can stain your new surface on the first day. My well is okay, except the TA is between 400ppm and 480ppm, which is tough to deal with. I hauled in most of my initial fill water from a local town's water system which only had 230ppm or so TA, which was much easier to deal with than my own water.
 
Welcome to TFP!

I have heard some great things about the Ultra Guard company and seen several positive reviews after one to three years, but like you I haven't heard any long term reports. Several reviewers stress that surface prep is extremely important. If the surface you are coating is not already smooth and solid you will have imperfections and/or problems down the line. UltraGuard does seem to be a plausible DIY project, quite a bit of work but possible. Plastering is beyond the skills of most DIY types. Even though I have seen one or two people tackle plaster and succeed eventually, it was a huge amount of work and a great deal of learning, jackhammers definitely included.

All that said, I believe that you would be happier with plaster in the long run. The problems with plaster tend to be exaggerated. Yes, plaster does require more attention to water balance, but keeping the water balanced enough to prevent plaster damage isn't a big deal once you are familiar with it. A properly applied and properly maintained plaster surface can be very smooth. Any surface will stain from leaves. It takes a little more work to remove leaf stains from plaster than from epoxy/UltraGuard but the process is essentially identical and the difference isn't large.

A good quality plaster job can last a very long time with proper maintenance, particularly the newer varieties with quartz added. I don't know how long UltraGuard will actually last, but I would be surprised if it was nearly as long as plaster.
 
Welcome. Like the others, I have no firm reports on Ultra-guard.

You don't say where you live but the $10k for plaster might be a little bit high. You've probably done your homework but it seems like 6-8k might be more in line with what I've seen on the forum.

A vinyl liner insert might be a possibility. The liner stays below the water line and attaches to the wall via a plastic channel that you attach to the side. It is definitely a DIY (I've done it) and it gives you the look and feel of an IG plaster pool above the water line and the nice, soft feel of vinyl below the water. My thinking is around 2-3k for a custom vinyl liner and however much value you place on your time. I have attached a photo of the u-channel the liner goes into.
 

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duraleigh said:
You don't say where you live but the $10k for plaster might be a little bit high. You've probably done your homework but it seems like 6-8k might be more in line with what I've seen on the forum.
Click to expand...
Duraleigh!
Is that price including work or just the material?
Ultaguard looks interesting but costly. I did a rough caclulation for my pool and it will cost approx 4600 US in material(two coating with Ultra guard 6000). That type of coating should come with a 15 years warranty, which is good. But aren't that price a little to high?
A thing that annoyed me on their site were that you have to order their DIY dvd. If they have a product as good as they claim why can't i download it for free, greedy if you ask me.
 
Henry Porter said:
Is that price including work or just the material?
Ultaguard looks interesting but costly. I did a rough caclulation for my pool and it will cost approx 4600 US in material(two coating with Ultra guard 6000). That type of coating should come with a 15 years warranty, which is good. But aren't that price a little to high?
A thing that annoyed me on their site were that you have to order their DIY dvd. If they have a product as good as they claim why can't i download it for free, greedy if you ask me.
Click to expand...

I actually ordered the DIY DVD... really, it's more marketing than anything, but you get a couple of sample "pucks" of the product with it too. When you order the product, it apparently comes with a full instruction manual and I think another "installation" type DVD... that's really more what I was looking for in the first place so I could determine exactly what surface prep I needed and learn more details about prep and installation. I honestly didn't see anything in the DVD that was new to me after carefully researching their site, but it was well presented, anyway, and if you end up ordering they credit it back on the order (not really a big issue when you're talking about spending $3K in the first place)

Lots of reviews I read speak highly of the owner's availability for answering questions and making specific recommendations on surface prep and installation... but I would note that TFP member "mikester" reported less-than-satisfying customer service with the company when he had one pail of product that was apparently bad. On the other hand, on the old poolforum, one user noted that when he called to order, the owner of the company recommended against buying his product because he felt the guy didn't really need it for his pool at that point in time.

When I was calculating how much I would need, I used their site recommendation (looked under DIY pricing, not the confusing calculator) - I wonder if you're looking at it the same way I am - you say "2 coating with UG 6000" would cost you $4600?? From what I'm seeing, my 25K gallon, 18x36x8.5(max depth) pool should fall just under 1200 sq. ft, and they recommend 4 "units" of their color coat - sounds like each unit comes in a 5 gallon slack-filled pail so you can add the hardener to it. I am not clear on whether this equals one "coat" of the stuff, or if you do multiple coats with that amount of product, but in any case it comes to 15 mils thickness and that's supposed to do the pool entirely. That costs $2060 plus shipping. You also have to order the penetrating bond coat for the first prep, and that's $515 for one 5 gal. "unit", which covers 1000 sq. ft. (So, at 1188 sq. ft. for my pool, either I'd have to go slightly thin with one unit, or order two and have a very thick coat or a lot of extra - kind of ugly to spend the extra $515, though.) Assuming I did the latter, I'd be spending about $3090 for everything I'm supposed to need for a completed job (except, obviously, the surface prep materials like acid, TSP, plaster, whatever).

I might change my mind on the stuff if I'm supposed to double the amount of product to have a truly good finish, but I don't THINK that's the case... I think all told, I'd be spending between $2600 and $3100 plus shipping (probably substantial for six 5-gallon buckets) plus a couple of hundred for miscellaneous surface prep stuff.

I like the DIY idea, I can't justify the $10K estimates for plaster right now, but if I spend $3K and a lot of my time, I want something that's going to last. According to the site, over a long period of time (I think they say 10 years), the coat may wear thin (they claim it still won't fail like paint), at which point you drain, scuff, and put another coat... I like that idea.

It all comes down to whether the product performs as advertised, which is why I'd like to hear from someone who's had it in their pool for 5-10 years. It also comes down to figuring out the "ideal" prep - I'll spend plenty of extra time on it if needed to make it last. That's what I was hoping the DVD would answer.
 
Hi Wolfgang!
No it's not much money for the dvd when we talking about several thousands for the coating. But in my way of seeing it it's would not cost them anything either to let us download it fro free, especially when they turn to privat persons with their product.
I have looked into a another high building epoxy that they sell in Sweden, I know one concrete pool that have used that coating. I will investigate if it contains any additives like clay. If I would estimate the cost for that coating I think it's like 25% of Ultra coating.

I did looked at DIY pricing tag and looked at product pricing. The price for Ultra6000 are 515US for 5 gallons that should last for 300 square feets.
My pool area are approx 100 square meters. 1S feet= 0,092903 M2. So a bucket would last 27,8m2 for me. So with two coatings I will need almost 8 buckets and one bucket bond coat. 515X9=4635US. That will leave me with a 30 mils thickness that they guarantee 15 years longlivety on with a warranty. Maybe I would be good off with just one layer and than it's more within the price level that I have calculated with. I have bad experience from importing things from the US. I don't think I could get away from have to pay tax on the whole cost(shipping included) which is an extra 25%, so for me I don't think it's an option anyway, unfortunately
 
By the way... JasonLion, thanks for the input on plaster. Nice to know that a replastering will probably be fine if I went that way. I probably won't, from a sheer cost perspective, but I hope I'm not shooting myself in the foot down the line... having to resurface in a few years if Ultraguard ISN'T what I expect it to be is, of course, my fear (I hope it's an unfounded one.)

All things being equal, and money no object, I'd probably go with a very nice replastering from a reputable contractor... BUT I have a finite budget for this project, and it's always a little tough for me to feel confident that I've picked the right contractor for any project. I was really surprised at the $10K estimates... with pool construction WAY down in Florida right now, I'd think the contractors were hungry enough to take work where they could find it, but I know of several folks who got replastering on similar size pools 3-4 years ago for just over half that. (Of course, some of those jobs weren't very good, either, but they were licensed pool contractors).

Duraleigh... thanks for the vinyl liner info. I honestly hadn't even considered that. The cost looks pretty well within my range, and I don't mind the DIY (in fact I rather like that)... I might be a little concerned about getting the right fit and I know I'd be forever worried about a tear (but honestly, I can't think of anything very likely to tear it...). I need to research some things about how I'd make the liner work with my bottom drain, pool light, return jets, built-in handrails, and built-in ladder... I don't know if that would work unless I did a whole lotta re-routing and removing.
 
Henry Porter said:
Hi Wolfgang!
No it's not much money for the dvd when we talking about several thousands for the coating. But in my way of seeing it it's would not cost them anything either to let us download it fro free, especially when they turn to privat persons with their product.
I have looked into a another high building epoxy that they sell in Sweden, I know one concrete pool that have used that coating. I will investigate if it contains any additives like clay. If I would estimate the cost for that coating I think it's like 25% of Ultra coating.

I did looked at DIY pricing tag and looked at product pricing. The price for Ultra6000 are 515US for 5 gallons that should last for 300 square feets.
My pool area are approx 100 square meters. 1S feet= 0,092903 M2. So a bucket would last 27,8m2 for me. So with two coatings I will need almost 8 buckets and one bucket bond coat. 515X9=4635US. That will leave me with a 30 mils thickness that they guarantee 15 years longlivety on with a warranty. Maybe I would be good off with just one layer and than it's more within the price level that I have calculated with. I have bad experience from importing things from the US. I don't think I could get away from have to pay tax on the whole cost(shipping included) which is an extra 25%, so for me I don't think it's an option anyway, unfortunately
Click to expand...


I had just planned on going with the UG 6000 at 15 mils, which they claim to last for 10-13 years before it wears down enough that a recoat is needed - according to the website, at that point all you have to do is drain, scuff, and recoat. Your post made me do some checking, and I see now the warranty info and the 30 mil option you mentioned... apparently, if I went with the UG 3000 at 7 mils, it's a 1-year warranty, UG 6000 at 15 mils gives a 5-year warranty, and UG 6000 at 30 mils gives a 15 year warranty. And you're right, looks like the UG 6000 at 30 mils is a 2-coat (in addition to the bond coat you use with any of them).

If I go with Ultraguard, I'm still leaning toward the UG 6000 at 15 mils...they claim a longevity of 10+ years, and easy recoat when needed... rather do that than spend nearly twice as much up front.

I don't know how long this product has actually been on the market for pools, which might explain why I can't find anyone who can say how it's held up after 5+ years. Looks like the product has a good history in industrial apps, though, and the company has an A+ rating from the BBB with no complaints on file.

Still, I'd really love to see some review by someone who's had it on their pool for several years. I think I'll probably call the Ultraguard folks and start the surface prep they recommend first and see what problems I run into there. If I run into any major problems, I'll back up a little and review my options. In the meantime, I hope I'll keep getting some more good input like this!

Thanks!
 
Have you looked at rust-oleum's coatings? It was that brand I was talking about in my last post.
I saw that you have it in the US aswell but not that type I have seen used as a pool coating(rust-oleum 5500)
That coating has many similarities to the Ultra guard. It's spreadsheet didn't say if it's 100 solid like the Ultra guard is but it's a thick building 2 based epoxy coating with no dissolvent agent's added. one coat results in the same thickness as the ultra guard 6000. There is also a bond coating special made for the 5500 system.
Ultra guard says their product is a 100% polymer resins, Rust-oleum says that it's a epoxy resin, I guess it just different name for the same thing. Question is! Does it contain any additives or not.
I will send them a message to see if it has more parables with the Ultra guard product.
pictures below is from a coating job with the rust-oleums product. you can see that it has it's bond coat applied. This person claim's that he has applied thousands of square meters of this coating in pools! If I remeber correct so was his estimations for longlivety 10+years if you do it right. The good thing is the price :) might be worth looking into....
[attachment=2:1yh7p8v0]rust-oleum.jpg[/attachment:1yh7p8v0]
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[attachment=0:1yh7p8v0]rust-oleum3.jpg[/attachment:1yh7p8v0]
 

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Thanks, Henry... I looked up the Rustoleum product you mentioned... it looks like it's only available in the UK. I also found a Zinsser product called "Bondex" - a "polymerized cement based product" - but so far no in-depth reviews on it. I've got some time before I need to make my final choice, so I'll keep poking along with my research.

Thanks!
 
Hey, I am currently looking into resurfacing my pool. I was Searching the net for Ultra Guard trying to find ot if anyone had used it and had a nightmare story when I found this site. I was reading some of the previous postings and was wondering if anyone had ended up trying it and what the outcome was? Or if you folks had found anything else comparable (but cheaper) for a DIY project. I have a marcite pool appx. 15'x30' 3-6 ft. deep that needs to be resurfaced but the tile may be ok still.
 
Hi Lawmile!
have you got a price on the Ultraguard? I have received a qoute on the RustOleum product I inteend to use but that coating was also very pricey. It would be of interest to me if I could compare those two products price wise.

Thanks!
 
Hey Henry,
I just went off of one of the website's links. My pool is 15'x30' and 6ft on the deep end and 3ft on the shallow end. That would be three 5 gal. buckets of color topcoat and one 5 gal. bucket of bond coat at $515.00 dollars a piece for a grand total of 2,060 dollars plus shipping (however much that is)? I am going to look up that product that you want to use from Rustoleum.
Here is a link to something that I just ran into. It seems a little cheaper but it looks like the final coat is just epoxy paint.

http://www.sanitred.com/SwimmingPool.ht ... swodBnrD6w
Here is another very good link to a site where the homeowner replasters his pool by himself with the help of his family. The trick is that he divides the pool into manegeable sections with ceramic tile, that way he start and finish a section a day. He has a lot of good information and ended up using a mix that he purchased from Lowes building center. He said that it is a lot cheaper not using the popular name mixes that already come with the pebbles in it.

http://www.truetex.com/pool.htm

Let me know what you think?

I am also going to get a price off of a bunch of guys that work for Pebble Tech and say that they would do it on the side for less.

I will checkout the Rustoleum product.

Thanks,
Larry
 
Hi Larry and thanks for the links.
I will read through them carefully tomorrow and come back then. I'm in a little hurry right now. It will be very interesting to follow what your research will come up with.
regards Mats
 
Hi again Larry!
I've read the link about sanitread's product. If I understood it correct that coating is used under the regular epoxypaint you still have to paint the pool with after you done with the sanitread treatment, right? So it's used like an extra protection. I belive the Sanitread bonds vey well to the concrete surface if you follow instructions. But how well does then the epoxy coat bond to the sanitread substrate?
A thick building epoxy coating is watertight itself. I would rather go with that alone on the raw concrete over an extra coat of sanitread inbetween. I belive in keeping things as simple as possible. With that way of thinking a cement based plaster probably is a better bet, so we don't have to mix materials at all.
If you have a stable construction from the beginng I don't think it's necessary to have a extra flexible sealent like the sanitread underneath the epoxy coating. Thick building epoxy is totally watertight and bonds very well to solid and dry concrete. The problem is to prevent it from crack due to movements in the construction and also to get a product that build thick enough so it's last. The picture I've posted in this thread is from a person who have applied thousands of m2 with Rust-Oleums products and he claims if you build up a thick enough layer and are careful with the preparatory work that coating should last for atleast 10+ years.
The product numbers I intend to use is:
Filler: RustOleum 5412
Primer: RustOleum 5401
Topcoat: RustOleum 5500

I really looking forward to hear what you come up with for your pool. As I said did I get a qoute on Rustoleums product and that wasn't cheap. Lucky as you are sometimes I found out the other day that the retailer I buy a lot of stuff from in my work has RustOleums products in their range of product(not the poolpaint though). I've asked them this morning if they could get product from them to me private and that wasn't a problem. So it will be interesting to see how much discount I will get from them :-D

regards
Mats
 
Hey Mats,
My thoughts exactly, looks like a descent product until it comes to the final paint coat?
Here is another link

http://www.shieldproducts.com/index.htm

This product may have some promise, I looked under the documents section which gives thier how to on pool recoating. The site also has a price list. But I am not sure of exactly how much of what I would need yet?
I am sorry I did not realize at first that you live in Sweden! how cool. I am searching more local for products to use because I may be able to pick them up without shipping charges and I live in FLorida USA.
Is that your pool in the attachments that I saw posted a few months back?
 
I am sorry I did not realize at first that you live in Sweden! how cool.
Click to expand...
Larry your kind gentleman :) Should I take your words like you coulden't figure by the way I write, hehehe!!!That was nice of you :goodjob:

I have looked closely at both shieldproducts coat and also at steelcoatings product.
Shieldproducts has a wide range of products in their supply. the product I found interesting from them was the waterbased coating(sku 66070-1) From what I have read waterbased epoxy coat's are more suitable for pool painting purpose than a solventbased, since nothing you apply vanish in the drying process. Ultraguard is also waterbased togheter with Rust Oleums product.
I'm not sure but that particulare coat seems to be designed for wood.

But the EPO-LUX 221SP from the other supplier looks very promising. I gut stucked on a quote on their site " This product requires a UV resistant top coat to prevent chalking". But when I think about it, I remember him how I told you about in my last post, He who have painted thousands of sqm of RustOleums product. He said that he could see chalking above the waterline after two seasons in his personal pool. Maybe a UV resistant coat should been applied to all epoxy coatings if the product is exposed to UV.
anyway the coat is thick building and fast to dry(just like Ultraguard) so it looks promising. This is also the first epoxy coat that I have read about that says that you doesen't need a primer.
I have sent them a mail to the european office and asked them about that and the price of course:)

Larry My pool is under construction! slow and steady 8) concrete-pool-up-north-t10055.html
 
Hey Mats,
I have already contacted the company and they sent me the spec sheets which I have attached (Pdf.doc). They gave me another person to contact for pricing. I may e-mail them next.
I checked out the link that you provided to your pool....very impressive!
Thanks,
Larry
 

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