Larry! Kindly keep us/me informed regarding what you find out about the resurfacing of your pool and what steps you will take. Very curious and interested :-D
Thanks!
Thanks!
Ultraguard Hi-Build Epoxy Coating?
- Thread starter Wolfgang
- Start date
- Status
Hi All,
I have used this product and can give you further details, not very satisfactory.
Feel free to contact me.
U.
I have used this product and can give you further details, not very satisfactory.
Feel free to contact me.
U.
Ultra, welcome to TFP!
Please share, we would love to hear about your experience. Were you using Ultraguard, EPO-LUX 221SP, or one of the alternatives that have been mentioned?
Please share, we would love to hear about your experience. Were you using Ultraguard, EPO-LUX 221SP, or one of the alternatives that have been mentioned?
Hi Gang! I'm brand spanking new to the site - this is my first post! Here's the skinny:
Location: Michigan; Metro-Detroit Suburbs; gunite/marcite peanut shaped pool 19'wX36'LX3' deep by steps/5.5' deep middle/ 4' other end. Climate: Hot muggy summers & blistering cold, snowy, icey winters = freeze/thaw/freeze/thaw. Age 9.5 years old. Condition: Tile great! Pool, EL Sucko! Why, not that old? Acid washed at least 7 of the 9 years upon spring opening - for various reasons and its a big "P.I.T.A"! Problem: marcite, particularly the bottom is extremely rough & uncomfortable - turning the kids feet into bare little nubs - worried that making the kids swim in our beautiful pool could be classified as Child Abuse!
HOLD TIGHT THE ULTRAGUARD STORY IS COMING...
Soooo, the research began - First - the Maricte guy (did the original marcite) suggested I go with the tougher form of marcite - Diamond Brite. Quote was $4,800. Upon my recessitation, dropped it to $4400; "the hounds were promptly released" & U guessed it, I'm looking for a new Marcite person.
MY EXPERIENCE WITH ULTRAGUARD: read every word on the site, did all the research; spoke with the owner, Ken Bankoff, twice.
The first conversation was very informative: He disclaimed immediately; said calcium is the enemy; it acts as a barrier to the Ultraguard bond coa-but if prepped properly-"exactly as I tell you to" he said, "Ultraguard will last longer than any other product on the market".He said prep in this order: Powerwash pool; remove anything loose or dirty. Acid Wash,1:1 water mix;TSP wash,neutralize the acid. Sand the entire pool w/24-36 Grit Pad; TSP wash again. 2nd call - I had more questions;wanted a reference in my area. He became quite agitated; said, "If I gave out customer names they would be badgered 24/7.I don't have any more time to speak with you, my website ref's speak for themselvess; when you're ready to place an order I'll give you all the time in the world.
Location: Michigan; Metro-Detroit Suburbs; gunite/marcite peanut shaped pool 19'wX36'LX3' deep by steps/5.5' deep middle/ 4' other end. Climate: Hot muggy summers & blistering cold, snowy, icey winters = freeze/thaw/freeze/thaw. Age 9.5 years old. Condition: Tile great! Pool, EL Sucko! Why, not that old? Acid washed at least 7 of the 9 years upon spring opening - for various reasons and its a big "P.I.T.A"! Problem: marcite, particularly the bottom is extremely rough & uncomfortable - turning the kids feet into bare little nubs - worried that making the kids swim in our beautiful pool could be classified as Child Abuse!
HOLD TIGHT THE ULTRAGUARD STORY IS COMING...
Soooo, the research began - First - the Maricte guy (did the original marcite) suggested I go with the tougher form of marcite - Diamond Brite. Quote was $4,800. Upon my recessitation, dropped it to $4400; "the hounds were promptly released" & U guessed it, I'm looking for a new Marcite person.
MY EXPERIENCE WITH ULTRAGUARD: read every word on the site, did all the research; spoke with the owner, Ken Bankoff, twice.
The first conversation was very informative: He disclaimed immediately; said calcium is the enemy; it acts as a barrier to the Ultraguard bond coa-but if prepped properly-"exactly as I tell you to" he said, "Ultraguard will last longer than any other product on the market".He said prep in this order: Powerwash pool; remove anything loose or dirty. Acid Wash,1:1 water mix;TSP wash,neutralize the acid. Sand the entire pool w/24-36 Grit Pad; TSP wash again. 2nd call - I had more questions;wanted a reference in my area. He became quite agitated; said, "If I gave out customer names they would be badgered 24/7.I don't have any more time to speak with you, my website ref's speak for themselvess; when you're ready to place an order I'll give you all the time in the world.
Ben here again - In my last post I spoke about the rudeness of Ken the owner of UltraGuard. My pool guy, who just opens/closes and does maintenance, NOt a builder was over and I pulled up the Ultraguard website and we called. While they say "oh yes, we believe in references" on their site, the only ref's you'll get are the one listed on their site. When we asked for more Ken became VERY VERY testy, raising his voice he said "I don't give out my customers' names, they'd be badgered night and day. I have 2,500 happy customers, I don't need contracters and the references on my site should speak for themselves!". I don't know about you, but most pool owners I know including myself are proud of their pools and most would be happy to speak to people. Meanwhile, Ken the owner of UltraGuard has infiltrated many blog sites and poses as an "objective", experienced pool guy voicing concerns against plaster if its a plaster repair site, marcite, paint etc. I WANT TO BELIEVE THERE'S A GREAT VERY LONG LASTING POOL COATING OUT THERE BUT HOW CAN I TRUST SUCH A RUDE, ARROGANT SALESMAN ONLY INTERESTED IN GETTING THE ORDER? He said once I place the order he'd give me all the time in the world - from what I've read here from people who bought Ultraguard, that may be true. But, I have many questions I need answered before I buy - there in lies the rub. What to do? Now I've come across MULTICOAT products; much like a marcite recoating product. Looks intriguing; anyone have experience with thier products both as a pool recoating and a concrete pool deck resurfacer? I want your input folks, please reply!
Finally, one of you said you found the manufacturer of Ultraguard; if you're out there please respond as I'd prefer not dealing with Ultraguard. I am in sales; I work on 100% commission. Basically, if I don't sell I don't eat; I would NEVER treat a customer, a prospect, a stranger with the rudeness Ken greeted me with during my second call.
Thanks, Ben (Hopeful in Michigan)
Finally, one of you said you found the manufacturer of Ultraguard; if you're out there please respond as I'd prefer not dealing with Ultraguard. I am in sales; I work on 100% commission. Basically, if I don't sell I don't eat; I would NEVER treat a customer, a prospect, a stranger with the rudeness Ken greeted me with during my second call.
Thanks, Ben (Hopeful in Michigan)
I put on the UltraGuard 6000 coating about 2 1/2 years ago and was initially very satisfied with the results. HOWEVER, at the end of last season, I noticed several small blisters and subsequently found many more. This year, I drained the pool to take care of the problem and work with Ken Bankoff, the owner of the company that supplied the Ulraguard system. I initially contacted him last fall to inform him of the problem and again this April to determine what should be done. He promised full cooperation but did not follow through until after several calls and emails and it is now the middle of June.
Upon inspecting the pool recently, I found at least 50-60 blisters and used a putty knife to open them and remove loose material. This resulted in some very large (5-6 sq. ft. or more) areas releasing the UltraGuard coating. I am now looking at re-coating the entire pool with new material after first re-prepping the surface. Ken promises to adhere to his warranty and replace the product but that will not take the place of all the work I put into the original application.
I think the bottom line is that this is VERY difficult to apply properly as the preparation must be done meticulously in order for the material to adhere properly. Of course, one does not realize that the preparation was inadequate until 2-3 years after installation. I tried to follow all instructions to the letter including power washing (3000 psi minimum), sanding the entire surface, vacuuming, washing with denatured mineral spirits, mixing and applying the primer coat in small batches as you only have about 20 minutes of working time, letting the whole thing cure for 3-4 days, then applying the top coat with the same mixing and application requirements as the primer, all the while hoping and waiting for the proper weather to complete the job. Oh, and if you have a job, you have to work all this into your schedule. This is all after testing the previous pool coating and for type and insuring (with another simple test) that the pool is dry enough to coat.
Now I am looking at not being able to use the pool for this season due to having to recoat is with similar preparation and time restrictions. Don't get me wrong, it is a lot of work and takes a lot of planning. Just think—How do you reach those deep end walls when there is no water in the pool? The video shows her painting the SHALLOW end—much easier than the deep end. Sand the ENTIRE pool? That's a lot of surface area! Think long and hard before you commit to tackling this project.
Upon inspecting the pool recently, I found at least 50-60 blisters and used a putty knife to open them and remove loose material. This resulted in some very large (5-6 sq. ft. or more) areas releasing the UltraGuard coating. I am now looking at re-coating the entire pool with new material after first re-prepping the surface. Ken promises to adhere to his warranty and replace the product but that will not take the place of all the work I put into the original application.
I think the bottom line is that this is VERY difficult to apply properly as the preparation must be done meticulously in order for the material to adhere properly. Of course, one does not realize that the preparation was inadequate until 2-3 years after installation. I tried to follow all instructions to the letter including power washing (3000 psi minimum), sanding the entire surface, vacuuming, washing with denatured mineral spirits, mixing and applying the primer coat in small batches as you only have about 20 minutes of working time, letting the whole thing cure for 3-4 days, then applying the top coat with the same mixing and application requirements as the primer, all the while hoping and waiting for the proper weather to complete the job. Oh, and if you have a job, you have to work all this into your schedule. This is all after testing the previous pool coating and for type and insuring (with another simple test) that the pool is dry enough to coat.
Now I am looking at not being able to use the pool for this season due to having to recoat is with similar preparation and time restrictions. Don't get me wrong, it is a lot of work and takes a lot of planning. Just think—How do you reach those deep end walls when there is no water in the pool? The video shows her painting the SHALLOW end—much easier than the deep end. Sand the ENTIRE pool? That's a lot of surface area! Think long and hard before you commit to tackling this project.
Thanks for sharing!
I'm glad that I finally decided to tile instead of paint. From my point of view is the big downside with paint the price. I can tile the pool for 2,5 time the price of the paint and tile is something that will last for a long time.
I'm glad that I finally decided to tile instead of paint. From my point of view is the big downside with paint the price. I can tile the pool for 2,5 time the price of the paint and tile is something that will last for a long time.
Those paint on coatings don't work. I remove tons of them.
Frank
Pebbleconcepts.com
Frank
Pebbleconcepts.com
I did a little research today about UltraGuard... like everyone I am skeptical especially after hearing about the phone conversations and lack of customers I could call. I became curious when I read what Mr. Bankoff stated on his website, "Searching the market he found an industrial coating that was being used for acid containment, chemicals, water parks and by a network of elite pool restoration companies throughout the country." Therefore, he is using a widely available coating product, in my opinion. Next I wondered what product he may be using, and read his webpage about his product here... http://www.poolrestoration.com/polymer.htm Next, I noticed the graphic on that page is high-quality (unlike the rest of his website which is infomercial-ish). Stay with me, I'm getting there... so, in that high-quality graphic the little lines and descriptions stand out because they look low-quality ( see http://www.poolrestoration.com/images/polymer.jpg ). Next, I notice one of the qualities described on that graphic is "network of crisscrossing polymer chains".
What other products have a "network of crisscrossing polymer chains"? I google that exact string of words and got one result here... http://www.koelbel-vertrieb.de/download/pcms_128_3.pdf ( there is a PDF showing the exact same graphic but from another company!). That PDF is describing a Rust-o-leum product called EpoxyShield. EpoxyShield comes in a part A and B as does Br. Bankoff's product, as do all epoxies. I wondered to myself is he reselling one of the products here? http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGBrand.asp?bid=8&Page=All The EpoxyShield Waterproofing Paint, for instance, comes in 5 gallons size, requires the same prep, sanding of concrete, and is tintable to over 30 colors, etc.
Here is what the Rust-o-leum website says, "A ready-to-use, water-based latex coating that forms an impermeable water barrier on interior and exterior concrete and masonry surfaces. The ultra smooth, bright white finish is easy to apply with a roller or brush and is backed by a Rust-Oleum’s 10-year waterproof and 5-year mold and mildew resistant paint film guarantee. This low odor, environmentally friendly formula is ideal for use on basements and can be easily cleaned up with soap and water."
There you have it. My 15 minutes of research and 20 minutes of writing this post. My personal conclusion... Mr. Bankoff's UltraGuard sounds very similar to Rust-o-leum's EpoxyShield (or similar)... right down to the 10 year guarantee, the website graphic, the "crisscross" description, the prep, the ultra smooth finish, the so-called green properties, mildew-resistance, and even the low odor.
This is all just speculation. And there's no law against reselling paint. But is UtraGuard the best choice for my aging pool? Should I go with tile? Diamond-bright? Help anyone?
What other products have a "network of crisscrossing polymer chains"? I google that exact string of words and got one result here... http://www.koelbel-vertrieb.de/download/pcms_128_3.pdf ( there is a PDF showing the exact same graphic but from another company!). That PDF is describing a Rust-o-leum product called EpoxyShield. EpoxyShield comes in a part A and B as does Br. Bankoff's product, as do all epoxies. I wondered to myself is he reselling one of the products here? http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGBrand.asp?bid=8&Page=All The EpoxyShield Waterproofing Paint, for instance, comes in 5 gallons size, requires the same prep, sanding of concrete, and is tintable to over 30 colors, etc.
Here is what the Rust-o-leum website says, "A ready-to-use, water-based latex coating that forms an impermeable water barrier on interior and exterior concrete and masonry surfaces. The ultra smooth, bright white finish is easy to apply with a roller or brush and is backed by a Rust-Oleum’s 10-year waterproof and 5-year mold and mildew resistant paint film guarantee. This low odor, environmentally friendly formula is ideal for use on basements and can be easily cleaned up with soap and water."
There you have it. My 15 minutes of research and 20 minutes of writing this post. My personal conclusion... Mr. Bankoff's UltraGuard sounds very similar to Rust-o-leum's EpoxyShield (or similar)... right down to the 10 year guarantee, the website graphic, the "crisscross" description, the prep, the ultra smooth finish, the so-called green properties, mildew-resistance, and even the low odor.
This is all just speculation. And there's no law against reselling paint. But is UtraGuard the best choice for my aging pool? Should I go with tile? Diamond-bright? Help anyone?
Hi!
I've researched Rustoleums product and have seen pools been painted with that coating here in Sweden aswell. from what I have seen is that coating just like any other epoxy without dissolvent, sensitive to UV exposure and should been combine with a transparant coating that protect it from UV if it's used outdoor.
I simply thought it was not worth's it's money and went with tileing the pool instead. After all, you have to repaint it within 5-10 years,
and my next twenty will I spend floating
I've researched Rustoleums product and have seen pools been painted with that coating here in Sweden aswell. from what I have seen is that coating just like any other epoxy without dissolvent, sensitive to UV exposure and should been combine with a transparant coating that protect it from UV if it's used outdoor.
I simply thought it was not worth's it's money and went with tileing the pool instead. After all, you have to repaint it within 5-10 years,
and my next twenty will I spend floating
May,2009 I applied ultraguard 6000 coating sky blue in color. It looked beautiful when finished. Within 2-3 weeks it changed color to off white in the shallow end. The deep end kept the color for two months then changed to yellowish tan. I have been in contact with Ken the owner of the UltraGuard website. Back and forth several phone calls and emails. He wanted me to contact the chemist to complain about the color change. When I contacted the chemist by email his responce was for me to contact ultra Guard not him. So I need to make a phone call to ken again. What a run around I'm getting. Ken accent sounds like he is from New York. He is a little rough around the edges but tries to be helpful.
The ultra guard coating seems to be a very durable coating, but I'm not holding my breath about the color lasting. I did follow the instructions of preping the pool and mixing the resin with the hardner and making sure I worked fast because of the 20 minute time limit once mixed. According to Ken the owner this has only happened three or four times since he has been selling the UltraGuard product.
You might want to think hard and long before making the leap to Ultra Guard 6000. Hope this helps folks.
I decided to upload some photos showing completion of application of Ultra Guard and current results as of Jan.2010
The ultra guard coating seems to be a very durable coating, but I'm not holding my breath about the color lasting. I did follow the instructions of preping the pool and mixing the resin with the hardner and making sure I worked fast because of the 20 minute time limit once mixed. According to Ken the owner this has only happened three or four times since he has been selling the UltraGuard product.
You might want to think hard and long before making the leap to Ultra Guard 6000. Hope this helps folks.
I decided to upload some photos showing completion of application of Ultra Guard and current results as of Jan.2010
Attachments
Welcome to the forum viclewis!viclewis said:
Sure do appreciate hearing about your experience with Ultraguard.
I just finished stripping an indoor fiberglass pool and detached spa. I am using Olympic's (Kelly Coatings) Gunzite primer and will be finish coating with Zenon. No doubt that the prep work is a HUGE time factor. The primer is a bit on the stinky side, but for me, not overly despite being indoors.. The Zenon is purported to be less so.
This pool had several hundred blisters in the F/G, varying in size from 3/4" to just over 6". The gel coat had failed and was not properly repaired for many years. It also had numerous coats of epoxy paint to boot. It took almost 2 weeks to grind it off so that I could remove the blisters and patch those that were deep. There were over 100 spots that needed filling. The homeowner was fortunate in that I didn't have to laminate new layers of F/G, a job a didn't relish the idea of doing. It was close though.
Today I will be doing the finish coat. Without UV hitting the pool, after discussions with the manufacturer, we expect a 10 year life expectancy before it will need a much simpler recoating of epoxy based paint. A little sanding, no, primer, less time needed, less cost to the customer.
We shall see what we shall see.
Scott
This pool had several hundred blisters in the F/G, varying in size from 3/4" to just over 6". The gel coat had failed and was not properly repaired for many years. It also had numerous coats of epoxy paint to boot. It took almost 2 weeks to grind it off so that I could remove the blisters and patch those that were deep. There were over 100 spots that needed filling. The homeowner was fortunate in that I didn't have to laminate new layers of F/G, a job a didn't relish the idea of doing. It was close though.
Today I will be doing the finish coat. Without UV hitting the pool, after discussions with the manufacturer, we expect a 10 year life expectancy before it will need a much simpler recoating of epoxy based paint. A little sanding, no, primer, less time needed, less cost to the customer.
We shall see what we shall see.
Scott
Edited to remove personal attacks. JasonLionviclewis said:May,2009 I applied ultraguard 6000 coating sky blue in color. It looked beautiful when finished. Within 2-3 weeks it changed color to off white in the shallow end. The deep end kept the color for two months then changed to yellowish tan. I have been in contact with Ken the owner of the UltraGuard website. Back and forth several phone calls and emails. He wanted me to contact the chemist to complain about the color change. When I contacted the chemist by email his responce was for me to contact ultra Guard not him. So I need to make a phone call to ken again. What a run around I'm getting. Ken accent sounds like he is from New York. He is a little rough around the edges but tries to be helpful.
The ultra guard coating seems to be a very durable coating, but I'm not holding my breath about the color lasting. I did follow the instructions of preping the pool and mixing the resin with the hardner and making sure I worked fast because of the 20 minute time limit once mixed. According to Ken the owner this has only happened three or four times since he has been selling the UltraGuard product.
You might want to think hard and long before making the leap to Ultra Guard 6000. Hope this helps folks.
I decided to upload some photos showing completion of application of Ultra Guard and current results as of Jan.2010
The problems described in this Forum are to be expected. The bad news is "it will get worse, and it will not get better". This product has been manufactured, over the years, by two different organizations, both of which are in Florida. They put his label on the pail and then drop-ship to his customer. The actual manufacturers names and addresses are located at http://www.uglassit.com/insider_info_page-13.htm.
Edited to remove personal attacks. JasonLion
For folks not in the Philadelphia area, who did the painting themselves, contact the Better Business Bureau of Eastern PA, and the PA Bureau of Consumer Affairs. Quite often, they can put considerable pressure on the company owner and, perhaps, get some partial refunds. -Good luck.
Reglassing frequently results in delamination, even when prep is outstanding.
New gel coats, not applied at the factory during manufacturing don't last any longer than epoxy paint in my experience.
UGlassIt claims lower chem usage and algae can't stick. Hogwash.
Just my experience.
Scott
New gel coats, not applied at the factory during manufacturing don't last any longer than epoxy paint in my experience.
UGlassIt claims lower chem usage and algae can't stick. Hogwash.
Just my experience.
Scott
PoolGuyNJ said:
PoolGuyNJ
I didn't realize we were discussing the values, or shortcomings, of fiberglass. Had I, then there would have been links to "before and after photos", and "testimonals" from do-it-yourself pool owners. My post was an attempt to help these folks before it's too late, and he goes out of business, again.
But your reply give me the opportunity to mention one other point regarding UltraGuard. The title "Ultraguard Hi-Build Epoxy Coating" is an oxymoron because it is impossible to roll-on a "hi-build" coating. "Hi-build" coatings can only be accomplished with a "hi-build" tip on spray equipment, operated by a highly qualified and experienced individual. Mr. Bankoff claims a 40mil thick coating by rolling-on 2 coats of his epoxy. That is the most absurd statement of his entire web site.
Bill
While I and certainly others appreciate what you are saying and have been saying about Ultra-Guard 6000, I have had the pleasure of having had to strip gunite pools of a fiberglass layer due to the constant delaminating. Whether this was due to the use of improper resins or what, doesn't matter to me or the customers. It still needed painting.
I don't think the pools I have had to do this to were your clients nor have I knowingly serviced any pools your company has done this to. They all came from the same place in East Brunswick. Given that your company covers my area, I expect that you know who I am referring to.
I have no wish for a flame war. I am merely stating my own experiences as a service professional. There are some things that I will put in an PM as this certainly bears additional conversation but don't need to be in a public setting. I hope that you will be amenable to responding.
Scott
I don't think the pools I have had to do this to were your clients nor have I knowingly serviced any pools your company has done this to. They all came from the same place in East Brunswick. Given that your company covers my area, I expect that you know who I am referring to.
I have no wish for a flame war. I am merely stating my own experiences as a service professional. There are some things that I will put in an PM as this certainly bears additional conversation but don't need to be in a public setting. I hope that you will be amenable to responding.
Scott
Mr. Seth Minster pool failed because it was not prepped properly. He did not call for instructions and did not get a control number. I still shipped a new order to him and paid the freight. Testing results are available from my chemist and why his application failed if you call us. Edited to remove personal attacks. JasonLion
Mr. Victor Lewis has only himself to blame for his failure. He filled his pool too soon, iron in his well water and calcium. We have less than 2% failure but he did not call for instructions to fill the pool. Test results are available if you call us. We are trying to resolve and satisfy his problems. No manufacture distributor or contractor with his mistakes would ever speak to him again. Click here and find out why Fibre Shelkote kote from Uglassit will fail within 2 to 3 years, and why he cannot offer any warranties.
UltraGuard is the only product we allow without fiberglass to be shipped to the home owner, IT IS NOT A PAINT! For the past 6 years he has shipped over 3000 home owners with less than 2% failures. We know if Ken offered 2 color top coats instead of 1 his failures would be less than 1%, and the pool would never be coated again in our lifetime.
Mr. Victor Lewis has only himself to blame for his failure. He filled his pool too soon, iron in his well water and calcium. We have less than 2% failure but he did not call for instructions to fill the pool. Test results are available if you call us. We are trying to resolve and satisfy his problems. No manufacture distributor or contractor with his mistakes would ever speak to him again. Click here and find out why Fibre Shelkote kote from Uglassit will fail within 2 to 3 years, and why he cannot offer any warranties.
UltraGuard is the only product we allow without fiberglass to be shipped to the home owner, IT IS NOT A PAINT! For the past 6 years he has shipped over 3000 home owners with less than 2% failures. We know if Ken offered 2 color top coats instead of 1 his failures would be less than 1%, and the pool would never be coated again in our lifetime.
Per wikipedia.org: Paint is any liquid, liquifiable, or mastic composition which after application to a substrate in a thin layer is converted to an opaque solid film.
If it looks like a duck and iit quacks like a duck, chances are pretty good, its a duck.
Instructions to fill a pool?
Call for instructions? You mean you're packaging's labels or web site aren't complete? Why is that? Does it's requirements demonstrate some level of difficulty that might detract from sales?
What caused the mistakes? A lack of readily available information?
Edited to remove personal attacks. JasonLion
Scott
If it looks like a duck and iit quacks like a duck, chances are pretty good, its a duck.
Instructions to fill a pool?
Call for instructions? You mean you're packaging's labels or web site aren't complete? Why is that? Does it's requirements demonstrate some level of difficulty that might detract from sales?
What caused the mistakes? A lack of readily available information?
Edited to remove personal attacks. JasonLion
Scott
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