duraleigh said:
Not to mention that if the hole were big enough to suck in whole, live worms, you'd be losing water rapidly.
Pool problems and worms...
- Thread starter Carpool
- Start date
Not to mention that if the hole were big enough to suck in whole, live worms, you'd be losing water rapidly.
Husband just got home, started up the pump, and again, the pump basket is half empty and the pump won't prime. So much for the redone plumbing this afternoon. I'm going to try the bucket test tomorrow, and also reread this thread to see suggestions I probably have missed. :|
Maybe reading this thread will help you to understand how leaks can be chased down.
http://www.troublefreepool.com/pump-loses-prime-every-night-t7895.html
IMHO installing a check valve without knowing where air was(IS) entering was a waste of someone's time, and your money. I thought that my brother did crappy plumbing, but your pump discharge piping makes his look good! If you have to tell you pool person how to trouble-shoot, time for a new pool person!
http://www.troublefreepool.com/pump-loses-prime-every-night-t7895.html
IMHO installing a check valve without knowing where air was(IS) entering was a waste of someone's time, and your money. I thought that my brother did crappy plumbing, but your pump discharge piping makes his look good! If you have to tell you pool person how to trouble-shoot, time for a new pool person!
launboy
0
When you say the pump basket is half empty just how empty is it? Is the water just below the inlet, is it lower, closer to the impeller hole, or is it below that even? It the water is lower than just the bottom of the inlet the air may be getting in somewhere other than the pipe. You may have a leak around the impeller or one of the drain plugs.
HTH,
Adam
HTH,
Adam
To be fair, the pump discharge was done by a plumber friend of my husband's - not our pool repair person. Here is the new plumbing that the repair guy put in yesterday:
I just set up a 5 gallon bucket in the pool to check for water loss, and I'll have an answer from that in about 24 hours. While I've never noticed any water loss in the main pool, there has always been an issue with the raised spa losing water. If the pool is off for 12 hours or so, the spa water level drops - usually at least an inch or two overnight. We've always been told that this is normal because the raised spa is above the pool, and I guess water can leak back into the main pool (it's been a while, so I don't recall the exact reasons, but no one ever seems concerned about it).
As far as the pump basket - I just checked the water level in there, and it's probably an inch or so from the bottom of the basket. It's much lower than the pvc pipe opening that enters it (is that the inlet?), and is at the level of the opening that runs into the pump body. I hope this makes sense. My husband is the one who replaced the worn out impeller about 3 weeks ago, but this problem existed before that. If I have my husband recheck the pump, what should I have him look for, specifically?
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read these posts and offer advice and help. I am beyond frustrated with this pool issue - especially since we are $1000 poorer, and seemingly no closer to a solution. I am studying older threads to try and get ideas for my next step (thanks to those who posted links).
I just set up a 5 gallon bucket in the pool to check for water loss, and I'll have an answer from that in about 24 hours. While I've never noticed any water loss in the main pool, there has always been an issue with the raised spa losing water. If the pool is off for 12 hours or so, the spa water level drops - usually at least an inch or two overnight. We've always been told that this is normal because the raised spa is above the pool, and I guess water can leak back into the main pool (it's been a while, so I don't recall the exact reasons, but no one ever seems concerned about it).
As far as the pump basket - I just checked the water level in there, and it's probably an inch or so from the bottom of the basket. It's much lower than the pvc pipe opening that enters it (is that the inlet?), and is at the level of the opening that runs into the pump body. I hope this makes sense. My husband is the one who replaced the worn out impeller about 3 weeks ago, but this problem existed before that. If I have my husband recheck the pump, what should I have him look for, specifically?
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read these posts and offer advice and help. I am beyond frustrated with this pool issue - especially since we are $1000 poorer, and seemingly no closer to a solution. I am studying older threads to try and get ideas for my next step (thanks to those who posted links).
Sorry, I thought I read somewhere where the guy found worms and dirty water. My bad.
Unless you have a practical joker around, I cant understand how worms are getting in the pump basket every start up. Are they somehow getting in the filter housing? Have you cleaned it out recently?
When they were putting in my gunite pool, I saw worms in the soil after the Bobcat dug the hole.
I have never seen a worm in my pool or in any of the equipment.
Worms generally dont climb either. I dont think they would take the time or energy to shimmy up a pipe hoping to get into a valve opening. Worms dig around in dirt.
Like one of the other posters said, the pool plumbing is a closed loop system. If a O-ring or other seal is bad it lets in air and the water level drops and you lose prime. That opening would IMHO still be too small for a handfull of worms to crawl into.
Have you checked for a hole in the side of your skimmers or a gap between the skimmer and coping that could let worms into the system? Do you have a fill line or auto filler that may be the opening they need?
We should call the gang from Scooby Doo to solve this mystery. Maybe the worms are trying to get you to leave so they can dig up the gold buried under the pool. Its probably the pool guy with a worm mask on anyway.
Unless you have a practical joker around, I cant understand how worms are getting in the pump basket every start up. Are they somehow getting in the filter housing? Have you cleaned it out recently?
When they were putting in my gunite pool, I saw worms in the soil after the Bobcat dug the hole.
I have never seen a worm in my pool or in any of the equipment.
Worms generally dont climb either. I dont think they would take the time or energy to shimmy up a pipe hoping to get into a valve opening. Worms dig around in dirt.
Like one of the other posters said, the pool plumbing is a closed loop system. If a O-ring or other seal is bad it lets in air and the water level drops and you lose prime. That opening would IMHO still be too small for a handfull of worms to crawl into.
Have you checked for a hole in the side of your skimmers or a gap between the skimmer and coping that could let worms into the system? Do you have a fill line or auto filler that may be the opening they need?
We should call the gang from Scooby Doo to solve this mystery. Maybe the worms are trying to get you to leave so they can dig up the gold buried under the pool. Its probably the pool guy with a worm mask on anyway.
Greg, it doesn't make sense to me, either. They are quite large, and it would have to be a sizable hole for them to get into. Making a mental note to check the skimmer area, as I recall we have a loose spot of slate coping there. I agree that the worms aren't just appearing out of thin air. And, there are no visible worms in or around the pool.
As someone else mentioned, though - given the size of these worms, you would think I'd be losing LOTS of water from a leak like that?? :?:
As someone else mentioned, though - given the size of these worms, you would think I'd be losing LOTS of water from a leak like that?? :?:
IMHO, Isolation needs to be on your agenda, not for you, but for your water enjoyment equipment! Keep posting here, commiserate with us; we've all been in these frustrating situations. I personally don't have experience with a pool/spa combo(or valve actuators,) but I think that isolating the two should be the first item on the troubleshooting list.
It looks to me like your pump has three suction inlets: 1.) main drain 2.) skimmer 3.) spa(motor actuated) with a check valve before the pump strainer basket.
The pump discharges into the bottom of a multi-port valve that has a clear-view section on the waste line, a DE? filter and returns through a heater to the pool or spa via a motor actuated valve, and maybe there is/are more valves for selecting return jets or cleaner(I don't see a booster pump.)
I don't know what that thing with a ring around it(and a clear top) is, but bet it's for the spa. A picture with a wider view would help!
If you are not using the spa, I would drain it, and verify that the inlet and outlet valves hold, ie.. there should be no water going into the spa, and there should be no air bubbles in the pump basket with the spa suction line closed.
Verify that there are no bubbles in the pump when suction is from skimmer or main drain only. Watch out for the skimmer sucking in air if the water level is low. No bubbles(and dirt/worms) mean that your pool suction piping is sound. Bubbles mean that either piping is corrupted, or valve has an air in leak.
NEVER turn the pump ON without a suction, multi-port and discharge valve OPEN!
I have been told to NEVER change the multi-port valve with the pump running.
Some other ideas?
Turn off pump, and immediately close suction valve(handle pointing away from T, parallel to green arrow,) close multi-port valve and close return valve(s if you have them). This isolates the suction piping from the pump, and the pump from the equipment after the multi-port. Everything should be quiet, no water moving(it has no where to go,) strainer basket full. Now, try to pin-point where air is entering, allowing water to flow. Every valve and connection(you have quite a few!) is suspect.
Open the suction valve and listen/watch for air entering at all connections up to multi-port. Pump strainer, seal and union leaks would show up now.
If the filter side of the multi-port has an air in leak, you should hear it when you open the return valve(s.)
If you find leaks, fix them and re-peat, until no water moves when the suction or return is opened. If you can't find any leaks, but water flows when a valve is open, the multi-port maybe leaking through (the strainer pot should not be affected by anything if the multi-port is closed and the return is opened) or allowing air in.
If you can't find any leaks, leave the multi-port and either the suction or discharge valves closed and let it sit, everything should remain full. After a couple of hours (or overnight) check it out. When the pump is turned on, everything should already be full; if you hear the filter or heater filling then you know where to look on the discharge side. An drained strainer pot points to suction side leaks.
With the strainer pot full, the suction and multi-port valves closed, you should be able to open the strained pot with-out it draining down, if it does, then the suction valve is leaking.
Heater drains might be open/leaking, or the heat exchanger could have a leak.
Filter drains, and air vents can leak.
Chlorinators and connections can leak.
Any piping penetrations(temp. sensors, flow sensors, etc...) can leak.
Sometimes suspected leaks can be verified by pouring water over them and watching for changes.
POP is your friend, and we're on your side!
Good Luck!! and best wishes!
It looks to me like your pump has three suction inlets: 1.) main drain 2.) skimmer 3.) spa(motor actuated) with a check valve before the pump strainer basket.
The pump discharges into the bottom of a multi-port valve that has a clear-view section on the waste line, a DE? filter and returns through a heater to the pool or spa via a motor actuated valve, and maybe there is/are more valves for selecting return jets or cleaner(I don't see a booster pump.)
I don't know what that thing with a ring around it(and a clear top) is, but bet it's for the spa. A picture with a wider view would help!
If you are not using the spa, I would drain it, and verify that the inlet and outlet valves hold, ie.. there should be no water going into the spa, and there should be no air bubbles in the pump basket with the spa suction line closed.
Verify that there are no bubbles in the pump when suction is from skimmer or main drain only. Watch out for the skimmer sucking in air if the water level is low. No bubbles(and dirt/worms) mean that your pool suction piping is sound. Bubbles mean that either piping is corrupted, or valve has an air in leak.
NEVER turn the pump ON without a suction, multi-port and discharge valve OPEN!
I have been told to NEVER change the multi-port valve with the pump running.
Some other ideas?
Turn off pump, and immediately close suction valve(handle pointing away from T, parallel to green arrow,) close multi-port valve and close return valve(s if you have them). This isolates the suction piping from the pump, and the pump from the equipment after the multi-port. Everything should be quiet, no water moving(it has no where to go,) strainer basket full. Now, try to pin-point where air is entering, allowing water to flow. Every valve and connection(you have quite a few!) is suspect.
Open the suction valve and listen/watch for air entering at all connections up to multi-port. Pump strainer, seal and union leaks would show up now.
If the filter side of the multi-port has an air in leak, you should hear it when you open the return valve(s.)
If you find leaks, fix them and re-peat, until no water moves when the suction or return is opened. If you can't find any leaks, but water flows when a valve is open, the multi-port maybe leaking through (the strainer pot should not be affected by anything if the multi-port is closed and the return is opened) or allowing air in.
If you can't find any leaks, leave the multi-port and either the suction or discharge valves closed and let it sit, everything should remain full. After a couple of hours (or overnight) check it out. When the pump is turned on, everything should already be full; if you hear the filter or heater filling then you know where to look on the discharge side. An drained strainer pot points to suction side leaks.
With the strainer pot full, the suction and multi-port valves closed, you should be able to open the strained pot with-out it draining down, if it does, then the suction valve is leaking.
Heater drains might be open/leaking, or the heat exchanger could have a leak.
Filter drains, and air vents can leak.
Chlorinators and connections can leak.
Any piping penetrations(temp. sensors, flow sensors, etc...) can leak.
Sometimes suspected leaks can be verified by pouring water over them and watching for changes.
POP is your friend, and we're on your side!
Good Luck!! and best wishes!
New2Me, thank you for the fantastic post. That is great information, and i will be sharing it with my husband tonight. The round thing with the ring around it and clear top - I think you are referring to the Nature 2 mineral disinfectant thing (it's grey) that used to hold cartridges. We don't use it anymore. We also have a booster pump for the spa (it's up high and not really visible in the photo).
What is POP??
Again, thanks! You just saved me an hour of reading old posts and taking notes. 
What is POP??
Again, thanks! You just saved me an hour of reading old posts and taking notes.
launboy
0
Carpool said:
I don't know what to check specifically, I was hoping that your answer would be a clue for one of the smarter people. :lol: Do you notice any drips under the pump/strainer when it's on? How about when it's off? I'd check the pumps drain plugs, there should be two, one on strainer basket and one on impeller, the seal between the strainer pot and the impeller housing(if there is one) the seal where the metal clamp is around the impeller housing and the pump shaft seal(where motor shaft exits pump housing in back).
Also, normally the raised spa should stay full. Depending on how your valves are set up/set when the pump turns off the spa may drain, but it would drain down to pool level, or a little above(I think) fairly quickly. Losing an inch or two overnight sounds more like a valve not closing fully or seating properly. If the automatic valves control the spa you may need to readjust the stops to make sure they close fully.
HTH,
Adam
Just another thought. You found worms but no dirt. The two should go together IMHO. The dirt would flow through the pump basket leaving the worms in the basket with clean water coming back from the pool having gone through the filter. Have you opened up the filters to see if they are filled with dirt? If they are very dirty, clean them and see how fast they fill up with new dirt. That might isolate the problem to an underground pipe.
I just checked the bucket test I set up yesterday, and I noticed a very slight difference between the two water levels - possibly a 1/16 on an inch or so. However, due to the way the pool is, the water level in the bucket was a good 6 - 8 inches from the top ( I matched the water levels inside and out), and I'm not sure if this would affect evaporation rates and cause a slight skew. I'm going to redo it properly this afternoon, and see if there is any difference.
Just to add fodder to the thought process, generally speaking, earthworms do not seek wet soil. At least not saturated soil. They come to the surface when there is a hard rain to keep from drowning, essentially. (Birds love this and will camp out on the ground right after a rain for easy pickings).
Coupled with my assumption that no "wad of worms" could reasonably plop through a pinhole intact, it seems to me that there is more probably nearly a complete break in a pipe underground. I suspect that lots of water saturates the dirt when everything is running, and that once the water stops, the worms are rising looking for dry(er) ground. They may be congregating at the open end of the broken pipe, unknowingly baiting the next startup.
This may not be the case, and I'm far from an expert, but it seems likely in my little brain.
I think I would look to pressure-testing the suction pipes.
Coupled with my assumption that no "wad of worms" could reasonably plop through a pinhole intact, it seems to me that there is more probably nearly a complete break in a pipe underground. I suspect that lots of water saturates the dirt when everything is running, and that once the water stops, the worms are rising looking for dry(er) ground. They may be congregating at the open end of the broken pipe, unknowingly baiting the next startup.
This may not be the case, and I'm far from an expert, but it seems likely in my little brain.
I think I would look to pressure-testing the suction pipes.
This thread seems to have lost it's focus.
If the pump won't prime (and I think that's the issue), it's because air is getting into the system. Air from underground just simply doesn't make sense until you have eliminated that there is no air getting into the system above ground.
I'm not sure how the bucket test entered the picture. A leak in the pool and/or plumbing (which is the point of the bucket test) will normally have no affect on whether or not the pump will prime.
If you can get the pump to prime, run it for just a minute and then shut it off. Get a five foot or so piece of approx. 1" PVC pipe and use it as a stethescope holding it directly onto every joint in the above ground piping. You can frequently hear the air hissing into the pipe if you are quiet and listen carefully. Don't be surprised if you find more than one leak.
Again, if you can prime the pump, shut it off and watch for bubbles to appear in the strainer basket. They should be coming from the pipes that lead to the skimmers.
I would find the air leak in the system.....almost surely above ground on the suction side (unless you can find water leaking when the pump is running on the pressure side) and that will solve the pumps ability to prime.
I would then address the issue of the worms.....if they still exist. I believe that is a completely seperate problem.
If the pump won't prime (and I think that's the issue), it's because air is getting into the system. Air from underground just simply doesn't make sense until you have eliminated that there is no air getting into the system above ground.
I'm not sure how the bucket test entered the picture. A leak in the pool and/or plumbing (which is the point of the bucket test) will normally have no affect on whether or not the pump will prime.
If you can get the pump to prime, run it for just a minute and then shut it off. Get a five foot or so piece of approx. 1" PVC pipe and use it as a stethescope holding it directly onto every joint in the above ground piping. You can frequently hear the air hissing into the pipe if you are quiet and listen carefully. Don't be surprised if you find more than one leak.
Again, if you can prime the pump, shut it off and watch for bubbles to appear in the strainer basket. They should be coming from the pipes that lead to the skimmers.
I would find the air leak in the system.....almost surely above ground on the suction side (unless you can find water leaking when the pump is running on the pressure side) and that will solve the pumps ability to prime.
I would then address the issue of the worms.....if they still exist. I believe that is a completely seperate problem.
I guess my line of reasoning about running the bucket test was to rule out the possibility of an underground leak - mainly because our pool repair guy is stressing the "worm factor" and underground pipe break so strongly to us. He was here today and is leaving the problem in our hands, as he is out of ideas. It really does have nothing to do with the suction side air leak, but was the easiest thing I could think of doing before we tackled the bigger stuff this weekend!!
POP had me searching this forum for a while when I first saw it used,
Pool Owner Patience!
I think Dave is right on, focus on the suction side leak(s) and prime failure, then move on to next problem(s.) As Ohm said, worms drown in wet soil and will look for dryer ground, for me, they always like to look in my pool(they aren't very smart.) Every spring opening I have a ring of dead worms around the pool, where they crawled out of the ground, across 3 feet of dry concrete deck(under the winter cover) and fell in the pool in search of dry ground. Doing the bucket test didn't cost you anything, and may help to eliminate doubts about underground structural integrity. I can't recall you saying, but when did this prime problem start? From when the pool was new, or just since this pool person has been on the job?
Again, Good Luck!
Pool Owner Patience!
I think Dave is right on, focus on the suction side leak(s) and prime failure, then move on to next problem(s.) As Ohm said, worms drown in wet soil and will look for dryer ground, for me, they always like to look in my pool(they aren't very smart.) Every spring opening I have a ring of dead worms around the pool, where they crawled out of the ground, across 3 feet of dry concrete deck(under the winter cover) and fell in the pool in search of dry ground. Doing the bucket test didn't cost you anything, and may help to eliminate doubts about underground structural integrity. I can't recall you saying, but when did this prime problem start? From when the pool was new, or just since this pool person has been on the job?
Again, Good Luck!
Went back and re-read your post. Somebody did something two months ago, and won't fess up.
New2Me said:
No, it was me!
My husband caught a bad case of pneumonia in October, and landed in the hospital for 10 days. I am the one who handles most of the pool upkeep, and needless to say, the pool was the very last thing on my list of priorities at that point.
We happen to have many beautiful oak trees in our backyard, and every fall, all those leaves end up in my pool. When my husband was ill, I started ignoring the leaves and everything else. Oh, and the Aquabot broke as well. Once things settled dwon again, we realized that we had a pump prime problem, due to leaves clogging up the plumbing. Our previous pool repair guy replaced some of the suction side plumbing, as we were having big problems with the check valve in front of the pump. After that, things just never worked properly, and around Thanksgiving, the pump failed. My husband installed a new impeller, and the pump worked again, but now we could not get it primed at all.
My husband tells me that once he replaced the impeller, the priming issue got worse - so I think our very next step is for him to take apart that pump and make sure everything is as it should be. Retracing our steps, if you will. Next, we are going to implement steps that some of you have mentiond, such as checking the lines separately for priming issues, and the idea that Dave had in one of the recent posts.
Looking back over the past year or two, and knowing what I do now - it seems like we've been developing a suction side issue for some time. For a very long time, when the pump has started up, we'd get increasing amounts of air in the lines that would be expelled out of the pool returns into the water. Then as time went on, it would take 5 - 30 seconds for the pool to prime. From reading past posts, this seems to indicate a leak somewhere, and is not normal behavior for a system.
As for the worms, who the heck knows?? :|
This has to be one of the most interesting pool problems I've seen in years! Worm clue: they are not from the ground. They came in as tent catepillars, or some stage of same, in the leaves and debris that got "sucked into" your system. Open up that big ol' filter and see what's in there!
I'm starting to lean towards both the pump repair and/or the filter.
I'm starting to lean towards both the pump repair and/or the filter.
budster said:This has to be one of the most interesting pool problems I've seen in years! Worm clue: they are not from the ground. They came in as tent catepillars, or some stage of same, in the leaves and debris that got "sucked into" your system. Open up that big ol' filter and see what's in there!
I'm starting to lean towards both the pump repair and/or the filter.
Well, I do know that our repair guy opened up and cleaned out the DE filter about a month ago, but that still leaves interesting possibilities that I had not considered!
