Borax raises pH with minimal impact on TA. Baking soda raises TA. Acid lowers TA and then aeration brngs the pH back up with out affecting the TA.BC said:
Newbie at a total loss!
- Thread starter SpaMedic21
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My pH on the test strips read "ideal" 7.5-7.8 was the range I believe. Then my alkalinity was way high it was above "ideal" and my calcium was way below "ideal" on the color code of the bottle. I bought the leisure time bromine test strips. Alkalinity 180ppm and Calcium 50ppm is the readings I got.
What can I do to fix this?
We also finally got the tub filled today :-D Hubby said the jets are working, heater appears to be and the ozonator light is on... hope thats good... right? I ended up getting baking soda and borax today... when i get home in the morning i am going to throw the sodium bromide and then the bromide tabs in the floater... what else would be next?
What can I do to fix this?
We also finally got the tub filled today :-D Hubby said the jets are working, heater appears to be and the ozonator light is on... hope thats good... right? I ended up getting baking soda and borax today... when i get home in the morning i am going to throw the sodium bromide and then the bromide tabs in the floater... what else would be next?
Question: is the Leisure Time bromine tablets the same as say the "off brand" tablets. I have been looking on a site and see that Leisure Time is like $11 for 1.5lbs and found tablets on another that are like 8lbs for $29. I think these are used for pools, but does this matter? I am looking to bulk and say.
Also, has anybody recycled their chemical plastic containers? Any special steps to take here?
Also, has anybody recycled their chemical plastic containers? Any special steps to take here?
Sorry Waterbear...........I mis-spoke. However, Knew Borax wasn't going to reduce her TA
Re: Newbie at a total loss! Help!
OK so here are my readings without chemicals
Bromine: 0
Alkalinity: 180
pH: 8.0
CH: 50
I am going to do the bromine reserve and tablets now.... ugh... im so lost
OK so here are my readings without chemicals
Bromine: 0
Alkalinity: 180
pH: 8.0
CH: 50
I am going to do the bromine reserve and tablets now.... ugh... im so lost
BC referred to this link before, but take a look at Lowering Total Alkalinity since your TA is high and is probably why your pH is high and wanting to stay high. A spa generally has lots of aeration so you usually want the TA to be lower. As for how low, that depends on the amount of aeration and the type of sanitizer you are using since some are net acidic. It's really just a trial-and-error approach. If you find that your pH tends to rise above your target over time, then lower the TA; if you find that your pH tends to fall below your target over time, then raise the TA. Since your spa has an ozonator, that usually provides a lot of aeration so you'll need to keep the TA lower than those without an ozonator.
In your 320 gallon spa, to lower the TA by 10 ppm takes 5 teaspoons of Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) or about 4-1/2 teaspoons of dry acid (93.2% Sodium Bisulfate). If you use about double these amounts, that will get your pH close to 7.0 and will drop your TA by around 20 ppm. Aeration will then raise the pH over time and you can then add more acid. Eventually, your TA will drop and the rate of pH rise will slow down. The procedure linked to above simply accelerates the process, but you can just add acid to get your pH lower and over time the TA will drop some every time you do this. You shouldn't need the TA to get any lower than 60 ppm, but if you still find some pH rise over time even with a low TA then you can consider using Borates, but first get your TA lower -- best to work on one thing at a time.
Richard
In your 320 gallon spa, to lower the TA by 10 ppm takes 5 teaspoons of Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) or about 4-1/2 teaspoons of dry acid (93.2% Sodium Bisulfate). If you use about double these amounts, that will get your pH close to 7.0 and will drop your TA by around 20 ppm. Aeration will then raise the pH over time and you can then add more acid. Eventually, your TA will drop and the rate of pH rise will slow down. The procedure linked to above simply accelerates the process, but you can just add acid to get your pH lower and over time the TA will drop some every time you do this. You shouldn't need the TA to get any lower than 60 ppm, but if you still find some pH rise over time even with a low TA then you can consider using Borates, but first get your TA lower -- best to work on one thing at a time.
Richard
It shouldn't have an effect on the Total Alkalinity (TA), but I'm not sure of bromine's affect on pH. If you are using the tabs with bromine and chlorine (BCDMH) or just bromine (DBDMH), then I believe these are somewhat acidic. A sodium bromide bank shocked periodically as the bromine gets used up is probably close to pH neutral in the long run.
OK so today I am FINALLY onto adding the chemicals for adjustment, I am currently adding calcium boost and am about at 100ppm. One more 15minute jet cycle and should be good...
Now should I worry about pH before adding the sodium bromide? or just adjust pH after it is added... also about how much bleach is needed to "shock" or "activate" the bromide tablets???
Now should I worry about pH before adding the sodium bromide? or just adjust pH after it is added... also about how much bleach is needed to "shock" or "activate" the bromide tablets???
OK i am done for tonight with this hot tub.... I did pretty much a whole 14 oz bottle of calcium boost because mine was so low!!! I would do one treatment first then wait roughly two hours with 30 minute jet cycles on and off. So calcium is good now....
I ended up having to do two treatments of Spa Down, which I am still a tad high but figure I would give it til morning kind of deal and just leave it...
I then added my sodium bromine, bromide tablets, and 3/4 cup of bleach... my bromine is still low but again will let it settle til morning to re-check and adjust. WOW!!! I can really smell the nasty fish smell from the bromine... the only time it is really noticeable is when the cover comes off, but after that... its very faint. I am pretty jealous at to the spa stores who have the spas that have a very sweet, clean, delightful smell to them...
Now I am just a little irritated with the clarity of my water... it is a cloudy,yellowish-green color... could this be from being well water and me letting it sit in the tub for about 2 days without anything in it and now I just need to let the chemicals do the work?? :cyclopsani:
I ended up ordering a test kit... finally!! And hopefully having that will help me in better maintaining the spa.... as for now... where and when does the borax come in to play :?:
I ended up having to do two treatments of Spa Down, which I am still a tad high but figure I would give it til morning kind of deal and just leave it...
I then added my sodium bromine, bromide tablets, and 3/4 cup of bleach... my bromine is still low but again will let it settle til morning to re-check and adjust. WOW!!! I can really smell the nasty fish smell from the bromine... the only time it is really noticeable is when the cover comes off, but after that... its very faint. I am pretty jealous at to the spa stores who have the spas that have a very sweet, clean, delightful smell to them...
Now I am just a little irritated with the clarity of my water... it is a cloudy,yellowish-green color... could this be from being well water and me letting it sit in the tub for about 2 days without anything in it and now I just need to let the chemicals do the work?? :cyclopsani:
I ended up ordering a test kit... finally!! And hopefully having that will help me in better maintaining the spa.... as for now... where and when does the borax come in to play :?:
Hi SpaMedic,
I just happen to stumble across this thread. I was just wondering what made you decide to use Bromine to sanitize your tub as opposed to Chlorine.
I just happen to stumble across this thread. I was just wondering what made you decide to use Bromine to sanitize your tub as opposed to Chlorine.
After reading much material, just figured that it would be low maintenance and its effectiveness with hot tubs high temp.... and I am not a high maintenance kinda girl!
I'm not an expert using Bromine. I just know a couple other people that used it. They didn't do a very good job of using it though. I think they thought it was lower maintenance then it really was. Anyway, they both ended up switching to Chlorine. The guys on this board are experts, so they'll help you use Bromine the correct way. I'm sure you won't have the issues my friends had. However, I would like to give you my experience with using Chlorine.
After a bit of a learning curve, I now have my tub running pretty effecient. On a fresh fill, I can get my water perfectly balanced in a day. For the first week or so, I use Dichlor to sanitize the tub. I add it every two to three days, and/or after each use. After that initial week or so, I switch to bleach.
On an ongoing basis, when I'm not using the tub, I check FC and add bleach every few days. However, my Tub will last 5-6 days with FC starting at 6 ppm and ending at 1 ppm if I don't touch it. If I shock to 12 ppm FC, it will last a week and still have 1 ppm FC. If I'm using the tub, I add bleach after each use. If I have a high bather load, I shock with bleach (and sometimes MPS) afterward. I check pH once a week, and rarely need to adjust it with acid. My pH has been stable at 7.8 for over a month. The only thing I add to my tub on a regular basis is bleach, and sometimes MPS.
I find this method to be very low maintenance, especially since I never have water problems. My water is always fresh, clean and ready to use, up until the time to refill. Also, the fact that I add very little chemicals to my water I can go longer between refills. I'm quite happy with this method, and don't believe I would switch to another one, unless it was just as effective, and I could go double the time in between checking the tub. i.e. two weeks.
As I said I'm not an expert on using Bromine, so I can't really compare the two methods. However, this is question for someone that is. I know Bromine is claimed to be a lower maintenance than Chlorine, because you don't have to add anything to the tub after each use etc. The floater keeps adding the Bromine. Then every week or so you shock to reactivate the Bromine. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. My question is this. What's the longest "reasonable" time you can leave a Bromine spa without touching it, (i.e. vacation etc.) and still have safe water? This is something I often wonder about. I welcome input from any Bromine experts.
After a bit of a learning curve, I now have my tub running pretty effecient. On a fresh fill, I can get my water perfectly balanced in a day. For the first week or so, I use Dichlor to sanitize the tub. I add it every two to three days, and/or after each use. After that initial week or so, I switch to bleach.
On an ongoing basis, when I'm not using the tub, I check FC and add bleach every few days. However, my Tub will last 5-6 days with FC starting at 6 ppm and ending at 1 ppm if I don't touch it. If I shock to 12 ppm FC, it will last a week and still have 1 ppm FC. If I'm using the tub, I add bleach after each use. If I have a high bather load, I shock with bleach (and sometimes MPS) afterward. I check pH once a week, and rarely need to adjust it with acid. My pH has been stable at 7.8 for over a month. The only thing I add to my tub on a regular basis is bleach, and sometimes MPS.
I find this method to be very low maintenance, especially since I never have water problems. My water is always fresh, clean and ready to use, up until the time to refill. Also, the fact that I add very little chemicals to my water I can go longer between refills. I'm quite happy with this method, and don't believe I would switch to another one, unless it was just as effective, and I could go double the time in between checking the tub. i.e. two weeks.
As I said I'm not an expert on using Bromine, so I can't really compare the two methods. However, this is question for someone that is. I know Bromine is claimed to be a lower maintenance than Chlorine, because you don't have to add anything to the tub after each use etc. The floater keeps adding the Bromine. Then every week or so you shock to reactivate the Bromine. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. My question is this. What's the longest "reasonable" time you can leave a Bromine spa without touching it, (i.e. vacation etc.) and still have safe water? This is something I often wonder about. I welcome input from any Bromine experts.
Hi Nitro,
I use the same pattern pretty much as you. I don't think it's higher maintenance either. Do have a question, however......whats the thinking behind shocking occassionally with MPS?
Barry
I use the same pattern pretty much as you. I don't think it's higher maintenance either. Do have a question, however......whats the thinking behind shocking occassionally with MPS?
Barry
G
Guest
A good test kit will certainly be much easier than your 'guess strips'. Don't be surprised if you find your water balance is not anywhere close to where you think it is!SpaMedic21 said:I then added my sodium bromine, bromide tablets, and 3/4 cup of bleach... my bromine is still low but again will let it settle til morning to re-check and adjust.
If the bromine is still low add another half cup of bleach. You need your bromine above 10 ppm initially. Also, it's usually best to put the tablets and floater in after the bromine level is testable, but no real harm done.
WOW!!! I can really smell the nasty fish smell from the bromine... the only time it is really noticeable is when the cover comes off, but after that... its very faint. I am pretty jealous at to the spa stores who have the spas that have a very sweet, clean, delightful smell to them...
Sounds like there are organics in your water. The fact that your bromine didn't rise very high after adding the bleach reinforces that. Shock again and get that bromine level up.
Now I am just a little irritated with the clarity of my water... it is a cloudy,yellowish-green color... could this be from being well water and me letting it sit in the tub for about 2 days without anything in it and now I just need to let the chemicals do the work?? :cyclopsani:
Did you add the metal sequesterant first? If not add it now. Cloudy could be from the calcium you added or it could be because you need to shock. Letting the water sit for 2 days will definately let thngs start growing!
I ended up ordering a test kit... finally!! And hopefully having that will help me in better maintaining the spa.... as for now... where and when does the borax come in to play :?:
Borax is used to raise pH, very rarely needed for a spa! (In about a 30 ppm concentration it acts as a pH buffer, which can be useful, but that is an 'advanced topic. Get basic spa manintenace down FIRST and then read the article on adding borates.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4921
In case you missed it, here is an article on how to use bromine.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=102
G
Guest
There are a few reasons that bromine is considered lower maintenance.Nitro said:As I said I'm not an expert on using Bromine, so I can't really compare the two methods. However, this is question for someone that is. I know Bromine is claimed to be a lower maintenance than Chlorine, because you don't have to add anything to the tub after each use etc. The floater keeps adding the Bromine. Then every week or so you shock to reactivate the Bromine. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. My question is this. What's the longest "reasonable" time you can leave a Bromine spa without touching it, (i.e. vacation etc.) and still have safe water? This is something I often wonder about. I welcome input from any Bromine experts.
First, it is active over a larger pH range so pH up to about 8.0 is fine. This means less frequent pH adjustment.
Second, Bromamines are active sanitizers, unlike chloramines, so this means less shocking. Shocking is still recommended weekly because bromamines do have a smell to them that many find objectionalble. It is often decribed as 'fishy'. Bromine itself has a 'chemical' smell.
Third, if you are using a 3 step bromine system (this means you have bromine tablets in a floater in addition to using sodium bromide, oxidizer , AND bromine tablets in a floater) then the bromine levels tend to stay fairly constant (as long as there are tablets in the floater and the spa is not getting an unusually high level of use) so this becomes much less maintenance and the spa can be safely 'ignored' for a week or maybe more. It's still a good idea to test it before use and make adjustments if needed. Note that I would not try and let the testing go more than a day or two until you REALLY get to know your spa and useage patterns!
It sounds like Bromine is easy to use. However, I think the problem one of my friends had was he would neglect the tub, and let it run out of bromine. Although, he told me he was using the tub once a week, along with adding Bromine, shocking etc. However, when I first looked at his tub, it was pretty bad, very cloudy and smelled bad. He said, it was only a week since he checked the Bromine and shocked. He obviously was doing something wrong. Anyway, I told him about the Dichlor/Bleach method, and he decided to try it. We drained and started over, and he hasn't had any problems since. He now uses the tub 1-2 times a week, and adds bleach 3-4 times a week.waterbear said:There are a few reasons that bromine is considered lower maintenance.
First, it is active over a larger pH range so pH up to about 8.0 is fine. This means less frequent pH adjustment.
Second, Bromamines are active sanitizers, unlike chloramines, so this means less shocking. Shocking is still recommended weekly because bromamines do have a smell to them that many find objectionalble. It is often decribed as 'fishy'. Bromine itself has a 'chemical' smell.
Third, if you are using a 3 step bromine system (this means you have bromine tablets in a floater in addition to using sodium bromide, oxidizer , AND bromine tablets in a floater) then the bromine levels tend to stay fairly constant (as long as there are tablets in the floater and the spa is not getting an unusually high level of use) so this becomes much less maintenance and the spa can be safely 'ignored' for a week or maybe more. It's still a good idea to test it before use and make adjustments if needed. Note that I would not try and let the testing go more than a day or two until you REALLY get to know your spa and useage patterns!
The only time I use MPS is during high bather loads. It helps the Chlorine oxidize bather waste, so I don't have to add as much bleach during the long soaks. It also helps to shock with it if you get behind on your Chlorine, and have built up Combined Chlorine (CC) present. However, I haven't needed it on this fill yet.BC said:Hi Nitro,
I use the same pattern pretty much as you. I don't think it's higher maintenance either. Do have a question, however......whats the thinking behind shocking occassionally with MPS?
Barry
G
Guest
MPS is actually more effective as a preventive to chloramine formation when it is dosed on a regular basis than being used on an as need basis to break down chloramines.Nitro said:The only time I use MPS is during high bather loads. It helps the Chlorine oxidize bather waste, so I don't have to add as much bleach during the long soaks. It also helps to shock with it if you get behind on your Chlorine, and have built up Combined Chlorine (CC) present. However, I haven't needed it on this fill yet.BC said:Hi Nitro,
I use the same pattern pretty much as you. I don't think it's higher maintenance either. Do have a question, however......whats the thinking behind shocking occassionally with MPS?
Barry
Does that mean adding it before the soak? That's what I do if I expect to have a high bather load night.waterbear said:MPS is actually more effective as a preventive to chloramine formation when it is dosed on a regular basis than being used on an as need basis to break down chloramines.
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