Borate formula using ProTeam Gentle Spa

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Nov 20, 2008
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I cannot find the thread where "Waterbear" I believe introduced this product to his spa.
Have have PH drift and understand this is a buffer. Understand as well it is PH neutral.
Questions that I have:
Do borates affect Calcilum Hardness and about how much? Current hardness is 450 until I re-fill. This level really makes my PH sensitive as related to CS Index (hense the reason to try to slow the PH drift rate a bit - running TA at 65 - which is stable over time. Speaking of TA - will Borates increase this as it leaves the PH alone?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated and valued since I have incorporated so many suggestions read from this forum.
BC
 
Borates have a negligable effect on TA and non on CH. If your pH is rising then it's because of the TA and the aeration in your spa. Please post a full set of test results and we can get a better idea of what's going on.
 
I agree that's what's happening (PH rise)
My #'s
CH = 475 (I can get this down with next fill to ~250) probably source of PH rate rise during aeration?)
TA = 70 (this has remained stable over time)
PH = 7.3 (target value to keep balance CSI) will rise ~ .1 / day (if no soaking) / 7.6-7.8 after soaking
FC = keep it around 2 ppm, Use 6% Bleach to sanitize - goes to 4.5 to 6. Then next day BEFORE soak drops to 2 range give or take .5.
CC = .4 (I add 3 - 4 oz bleach daily to keep the tub filled with active FC...reduce shocking freq as long as CC is low.
CYA = ~30 ppm
Tub volume = 375 gal
Temp = 100 - 102 deg
I also add 1 oz clarifier (enzymes I think) once/week (Had tub ring)
No cloudy issues - just curious about borates especially the benefit of a softer feel even if it doesn't reduce rate of PH rise.
Thanks!
 
First of all, welcome to TFP!

As for the cause of the pH rise, It's the combination of a pH of 7.3 with a TA of 70 plus aeration from spa jets. The pH rises faster when the pH is lower, when the TA is higher, and when there is more aeration.

If you are regularly adding acid to keep the pH low, then I would expect the TA to drop. For example, if the pH rose to 7.7 and you added acid to lower it to 7.3, then the TA should drop by about 4 ppm so doing this a few times should result in a noticeable TA drop. A lower TA should be OK in your situation, though I wouldn't let it drop below 50 ppm in any event.

Your high CH is not the source of your pH rise -- not directly, that is. However, the high CH is having you target a lower pH to help prevent scaling and THAT increases the rate of pH rise. So you are right that doing a drain/refill to get to a lower CH should help you target a higher pH of 7.5 or 7.6. I don't understand how your CH got higher since your last fill -- how did that happen?

Using Borates will slow down the rate of pH rise, but won't change the amount of acid you need to add "per time". So you'll still end up using roughly as much acid per week, but won't have to add it as frequently.

Richard
 
Thanks Richard,
My CH is the problem (narrows my window for CIS). Thanks to this site I realized the well water I used in the past (which had 1800+ CH readings) was killing me. We also have a cistern which I partially filled instead of doing it completely - should have gone all he way)this meant I hadto keep PH and TA on the low side and also limited how much the PH could fluctuate due to the CSI stat from the pool calculater. BTW- tested fill water from both sources - well (which has high sulfer content has CH of 1800. Cistern has 125. I feel using 100% cistern will "widen my window" to accept normal variance + the addition of borates will be the home rume. Just wanted to know how to go about introducing 'Gentle Spa' to the tub so I don't create another problem that has dimenishing returns for the investiment. Also - at what rate & process of introduction based on the product being 'Gentle spa" withh a capcity of 375 gal? (assuming I start a zero)
You guys are wonderful, and thank you for the welcome!
BC
 
Yup, it's six years old but I'm reading up on Bromine and "Gentle Spa" so I figured I'd answer the old question that was left hanging.

Initial treatment of Gentle Spa on 375 gallon spa would be 10 oz of product. The package says 4oz per 150 gal. After initial treatment, 5 oz per week, 2oz per 150 gal.

This poster is talking about adding borates to the spa being a "home run" and it's what I'm looking at doing too. I thought borates once added and you get your 50ppm it was fairly stable. This product was mentioned as something that was PH neutral so you didn't have to mess with acid to balance but is it a borate ?? I don't understand the constant maintenance dose as you wouldn't need to do that if just using the 20 mule team and muriatic.

Be gentle, I'm new :drown:
 
Gentle Spa is not as pH neutral as they claim and people who have used it report that it raises the pH a lot, but not as much as just being borax. Instead of using this product which is more expensive anyway, just get boric acid directly from DudaDiesel, AAA Chemicals (better for pool sized applications since they don't sell smaller quantities), or The Chemistry Store. With boric acid you don't need to do much pH balancing as it is only slightly acidic (moves the pH from 7.5 to 7.2 typically).

Forget the part about maintenance. That's just bunk except for the very small amount of water dilution that occurs from carry-out and refill. Evaporation and refill doesn't change the concentration and the borates don't degrade.
 
I love when someone (like you) can post an answer and it makes perfect sense. I'm still barely getting pool chemistry and unfortunately due to the spas little use I'm leaning toward keeping it bromine as once I start to get a little secure in knowing how to take care of the spa the bromine is a little more tolerant of neglect.
 
This thread was a great help. I have a question on testing borate levels. I can use the calculator to see how much should go in on a fresh fill, but is there a test to monitor it to see at what level it is after a month with mulitple top offs. I use an on-the-go softener for fills and top offs as I have to target 50 CH. Just wondering how to know the Borate level is still 30-40ppm?
 

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