Concrete pool up north

[Davegvg]

No put down felt from my end at all.

I believe we are both talking about unglazed flat plastic collectors, glazed collectors have a very high standing temp more so that PVC will allow and I would not use them unless for solar hot tap water or hydronic heating using a storage tank. They are also quite expensive per panel and with a mild temp differential dont really add a lot of value to my application. - Back on the farm in Indiana maybe here in LA no.
Since I have a salt water pool I want as little metal in the system as possible and glazed panels dont fit the program.

What's the estimate of your pools capacity in litres?

Uncle Dave

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks for your system description, sounds like a good setup... Everything I've seen suggests that radiant floor is a great way to heat a house, w/ radiators coming in a close second. One difference I did notice, which seems fairly common with european setups is you run a smaller storage tank than most US setups do. If I did the conversion right, (about 3.2 liters / gallon) you have about 750 gallons of storage, while most US setups I've seen described use 1,000-1,500 gallons. However I think you run your storage a little hotter than we do

I've never been that attracted to the idea of doing solar just for the pool, but even here in New England, I know people can get enough solar heat in the winter to put a big dent in their heating needs for other fuels - I've heard this is true even in Maine, which I thought was almost as far north as Sweden. Then as long as the collectors are up on the roof, it makes sense to dump the extra heat they make into the pool.

I know there are some people that rave about the vaccum tube collectors, but from what I've seen in my research, the glazed flat plate units actually work better in a lot of cases, especially if you can run them at relatively low temperatures. One of the best cases I saw was a test house in Germany where they had put in both types of collector. The vaccum tube did better peak production, but the flat plate had better total output because it worked over a longer period of time. This is a good thing, as the flat plate units are MUCH less expensive. They can even be home built (Though the commercial units are slightly more efficient in most cases) I know that if we go with solar on our roof, we will be using flat plates.

It might be worth running some heat-loss calculations and looking up what you could get from a year-round glazed flat plate setup. Considering that it's heat that you can use to reduce the amount of wood you burn in the winter, and probably supply all your hot tap water in the summer, as well as helping out with the pool, essentially for just the cost of electricity to run your pumps, it might make a good bit of sense if the payback is less than 5-6 years.

Gooserider

 

[PaulR]

If I did the conversion right, (about 3.2 liters / gallon) you have about 750 gallons of storage, while most US setups I've seen described use 1,000-1,500 gallons.

More like 3.8 liters / gallon, so 2400 liters = 630 gallons.
--paulr

 

[chem geek]

See this thread regarding solar panel comparisons. In an environment where the weather is cloudy or windy, but not exceptionally cold (i.e. freezing), the glazed (glass enclosed or Gobi) panels are generally the way to go. The evacuated tube technology is much better for hot water heating, not for heating pools, and it's very expensive. The glazed panels aren't cheap, but their less expensive than evacuated tube.

For greatest efficiency, you'll want a panel that can use pool water directly rather than using water with anti-freeze with a heat exchanger. That means the panels need to drain when the climate gets too far below freezing (they can tolerate some freezing, but not as much as evacuated tube panels).

Richard

 

[Gooserider]

Interesting thread on the solar panels, Chemgeek, and I responded to it there (don't want to hijack Henry's project thread...) I reached a different conclusion, but I think it's mostly because we have slightly different goals in mind in our designs.

Gooserider

 

[Henry Porter]

Shame on you guys!!! Give me the impression that you don't know anything about solar panels and now I'm stucked inbetween all the experts and can't find my way out 8)

Gooserider I think the way you do about solar panels. If I should install a system like that it should be on my house warming system and use the excess to heat the pool in the summer. That thought has crossed my mind in the past. it's a bigger operation though and I can't deal with it at the moment. Last time I looked it up our goverment support such installation with quite a bit of money, so maybe after the poolbuild.....
Regarding the size of my accumulation tank, it's at the upper end of what most people use. I think that depends on that we live in much smaller houses here and I think the standard that we build our houses are better talking in terms of isolation.
I have had the pleassure to work both in US and Australia, and even if the climate there is much warmer in the winter, it's still get's cold from time to time. I experienced it colder there indoors in the winter compared to what I have it at home. just a reflection.

Uncle Dave my estimate in my pool capacity is around 16000 gallons.

 

[Gooserider]

The government subsidy thing is a minor advantage of going with the whole house heating approach over doing just a pool heater as well - At least here in the US, they have some pretty substantial subsidies / tax writeoffs for installing house heating solar, but they won't give you a penny to put in a pool heating system.... So do a house heat setup, and get the pool heat as a freebie.

Gooserider

 

[Henry Porter]

Hi
I have almost!!! got all the frame from the pool, just a tiny bit left.
If things goes as I plan I will fill in the holes on the outside from all the bars so I can start to seal and isolate and fill upp that side again. With start this weekend. After that it's time for the stairs to be built.
It have been a hard and boring labour this last week and a half. Just a few days more and I hope I'm on my way to more interesting job with this project.

Regards
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[waste]

Great pics on a great job well done

I forget where your steps will be, but might have an idea on how to pour them. Standard '2 X 10's' can be used to form the steps and then pouring the crete into the top step will allow you to level and smooth the steps Duraliegh (Dave) has block steps that he shows here. I'll assume that you plan on something similar.

I do want to say "congrats" on getting your pool ~ close to finished and thank you for the pics you've included -- it makes us all feel as if we were there with you as the pool was being built!

I know you've spent a LOT of time and energy on this project and consulted us at each turn -- you will be rewarded this summer for your patience and perserverance in doing this project as diligently as you have! :!:

Thank you : bowdown : for sharing your build with us!!

 

[Henry Porter]

Thanks a lot Ted! Posts such yours really makes it a bit easier.

I have thought to use blocks like Dave has in his project. I've changed my mind when I came across this site where everybody building free form pools with so nice curves. So to light up the features of my pool a little bit, will I mold my stairs in freeform shape. So I'm gonna build a form and mold them. A little bit more job but I think it will be worthwhile to light up the impression of it a little bit. Or am I thinking wrong here? Maybe should I stick with the straight lines? I'm not so sure really when I think about it again.
A good thing by running the project yourself is that you don't really have to decide things like that until you actually shall do the job :-D

I asked a few post ago if i post to many pics. No one said anything so I will post a few today that really doesen't bring much to the average reader I guess.
Todays pics show what the metal bars looks like when they are removed from the construction. Last picture show the metal washer in the concrete where the bar is broken. That washer makes it watertight.
On the outside will I not seal that metal washer before I mold it. On the inside will I probably use some kind of sealent against corrosion before molding. It shoulden't be necessary if the molding is tight, but to be on the safe side I think I will.

Thanks again Ted!
//Mats
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[Gooserider]

Looks really great.

On the steps, I would probably stick with a straight line type of design, but that's just my style sense - IMVHO it isn't good to mix styles - if you have a straight line pool like yours, you should have straight line steps, if it were a free form curvy pool, I'd say to use a curvy step design... If I did use a curved design in a pool like yours I'd make if a very simple one, i.e. a set of simple concentric ellipses.

One thing I was wondering about seeing the big excavation trench around the outside, is if you were planning to put any kind of insulation around the pool walls to reduce the amount of water heat you lose to the ground? (Is this something anyone does?) It would seem to me like a relatively low cost / effort thing to keep a pool warmer with lower energy bills.

Have to admit I haven't really looked at many pool building threads, but is this something that people are doing these days? Given the high costs of energy, I'd think it would make sense in new construction (Probably less so as a retrofit, unless someone came up with easy to install things like maybe a blanket wrap for AG pools)

Gooserider

 

[Butterfly]

Hi Mats,

I asked a few post ago if i post to many pics.

um, nope, you can't give us too many pix!

You may have noticed that you have over 1600 views of your thread.

Obviously, we just can't get enough! :lol:

 

[Pisces]

Butterfly is right...we can't have too many pictures!! I'm getting really excited for you now, Mats...the pool is coming along SO well...I just can't wait to see more....keep the pics coming and GREAT JOB! Pretty soon....you'll be relaxing by your pool....

 

[Henry Porter]

Hi Gooserider!
Maybe you're right about that I should follow the style the pool is built in all the way. I must admitt one thing though, I'm getting pretty tired of myself that I can't hold on to one thing and then stick to that plan. I have changed everything back and forth so many times that I loose track on it. Wood pan or heat pump. Plaster or epoxy. sand or cartridge. intellflo or any other pump. tanning ledge or not. The list can go on forever. I love this boards it gives me so much inspiration
Pisces! You that called me a sharp cookie and all I forgive you if you take back those words. But after a second thought I think Gooserider are right about the steps. What a surprise 8) !!! I will consult the rest of the family to set it once and for all. It wont take long before I will start to actually build them. I hope I can start on them within the next few weeks.

Yes I will isolate the walls from the outside, not so much for the isolation but more to keep one side of the wall dry. Regular celluar plastic won't do beacuse of it cells that are open and can after long time absorb water and then you end up with a wet and cold wall side.
Like everytning else have I gone from one way that I had planned to another, today I'm not really sure which one I should choose.
But like the steps I have to decide pretty soon, beacuse tomorrow I will mend the wholes from the bars on the outside and after that its isolation time.

Today I have set up the ground for the technician room. I'm a little worried about it's size! approx 2X1m and 1,65m head room. Would that be enough? I really hope so, All the elctricial equipment will fit on the poolwall so the floorspace will be for the filter and the pump and swg. If it looks to small please say so, I haven't cast the concrete yet so there are still time to extend it's measures.

The project starts to feel pretty good now. If I brake down everything that is left to do with the pool itself it should be possible to have it ready to end of June I think. Put I have misstaken before so it's best not to say anything.

Have a nice weekend everybody!! Butterfly, I will post so many pictures now when you said what you did so you will beg me to stop eventually

 

[no-mas]

... I will post so many pictures now when you said what you did so you will beg me to stop eventually

I doubt anyone will beg you to stop - I think we're ALL enjoying seeing your work! Keep it up - you'll be swimming before you know it!

 

[Butterfly]

Butterfly, I will post so many pictures now when you said what you did so you will beg me to stop eventually

:lol: :lol:

I doubt anyone will beg you to stop

I believe jmas65 is correct!

 

[Gooserider]

Depending on how you access it, that technical room seems kind of small - approx 2X1m and 1,65m head room - sounds to me like you have enough room for the equipment, but not really enough to service it, and the head room seems low to me. I would want to have about a meter so of free space in front of the equipment to work in, and enough headroom that I could stand up without banging my head. If I were storing equipment or supplies in the room, I'd want to make it even a bit larger perhaps - though you might be able to build some shelves in the space above the equipment.

I'd suggest a minimum of 7' of headroom, about 2 meters, and I'd think more in terms of a 2 x 2 floor space.

Gooserider

 

[Henry Porter]

Thanks Gooserider for giving me the kick in the but I need to do it right.
Sometimes my laziness amazes me!

 

[waste]

Mats, just wanted to remind you to have a drain in the floor of the tech room, at some point water will end up on the floor (from working on the pump or draining the filter). It doesn't have to be anything more than a hole in the floor with 1 - 2' of gravel beneath it.



EDIT -- I forgot to mention that heaters require specific clearances and stack vents for indoor installations (LP heaters usually have to be raised off the floor ~ 18") - consult your heater manual for proper installation and be sure you have enough room to follow the instructions!!

 

[Henry Porter]

Hi Ted and thanks for your concern. These boards must be the friendliest on the net. Never before have I got so many good advice delivered in so friendly manners like in here :-D I have a bad feeling inside over that I don't participate as much that I would like to in other threads. There are different reasons for that. Firtstly beacuse the lack of time I have at the moment. most of my waken time goes to either build or trying to get home all materials I need for the weekends. But mostly beacuse all this is new to me and my knowledge about pools i pretty low, still!!! But Have faith, even I could snap up a thing or two, so I might be able to share something eventually. It wont get easier that I write like an eight year old. So it take a bit longer for my replys to be formed I guess compared to you guys 8)

Anyway Ted! I've bought a drain for the floor in the technician room yesterday. made of cast iron, se pics. I will connect that drain to a container(that I will mold in the floor) together with the drain from the shower and also the drain from what will be our outdoor kitchen. The water will then be pumped to our house kloak system.

I have since my last post molding the wholes from the bars on the outside of the wall. I undertook a careful procedure but I think that have paid of. So far no cracking in the surface. If this will last will I use the same procedure on the inside except for a rustcoating that I will paint on the metal pieces in the whole before molding.

btw Ted I will place my heatpump on the side of the pool not far from the underground room approx 7m. So the pump will stay outdoors.

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