Help balancing pool ... optimistic about BioActive

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Septimosprime

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Aug 20, 2011
21
West Covina, CA
Hey, everyone.

I've had a terrible time this season trying to open our pool. The kids have had two cold days of swimming and the rest has been me trying to fix things per LPS recommendations.

I've been hunched over the laptop for days reading posts on TFP and I am stoked to breakaway from LPS and take back my pool. But, where do I begin? I just ordered The TF100 test kit and can't wait for it to arrive so I can take the pool store out of the equation.

Basically, my pool has been green and cloudy. I've shocked it with Cal-Hypo Power Powder while floating Trichlor pucks not realizing the high CYA levels later detected. Used Green to Clean, which got rid of the green but left the pool very cloudy. I'm not sure if that was from dumping 10lbs of soda ash to raise the pH to a higher level to help the Green to Clean work. After G to C I had to add a bit of muriatic acid to lower the pH to 7.6. Then we noticed the TA was up to 190 so LPS recommended leaving it alone so as not to affect the pH. The following week, still TA 190 so the employee called a pool cleaning buddy and he suggested adding acid to lower the TA even though my pH was good. Can't keep Chlorine levels up to an effective ppm to work so the green has come back and the cloudiness has remained. Then last week it was noticed that the CYA was really high and like everyone else on this forum the LPS test only reads so high until it becomes an "educated guess". That's the first time CYA has been introduced into the pool conversation as a concern, but looking back I noticed it was high on a LPS water analysis from last summer . It was recommended to then partially drain and refill with tap water. We're in a drought so I have great trepidation and guilt doing that. I immediately removed the pucks and plan on using liquid chlorine while trying to lower the CYA and probably regularly after a balance is achieved. LPS then pointed out the Bio-Active packets for 49.99 and I thought it was another $$$ trap. Now finding this thread I'm interested, intrigued, and optimistic. I apologize because I haven't yet read all the replies to see all the test results, but I need to do something to this pool before I make it into a skate park.

Todays LPS water analysis report (5/29/15):
FC 0 Until he added Fresh N Clear to the test which showed huge amounts of Chlorine...now he's trying to sell me the Fresh N Clear
TAC 5
CH 250
CYA 150 (of course it could be higher and won't know until my test kit arrives)
TA 110 (yay!)
pH 7.4
copper 0
iron 0
TDS 600
Pho 0

Water temp is around 76 degrees with a solar cover in place. The weather has been strange.

Now, as I said the pool is green and cloudy. Earlier this week I added an algaecide, which doesn't seem to have had any affect. Also, added Ultra Bright to clump the cloud particles. I've been sweeping everyday and cleaning the cartridge. I did remove the cartridge, opened the backwash, and wasted a bit of water while vacuuming to help remove some of the dirt, green, etc. I have yet to top the pool off with tap water. I really am hoping the Bio Active works because I don't want to waste water, but will it work?

I'm confused with the FC reading because there was no chlorine until he added the Fresh N Clear to the test vial. Should I use Fresh N Clear to free up the chlorine already in the pool. Should I raise the FC by using liquid chlorine. Should I get rid of the green before using the Bio Active? Should I use Bio Active at all? Should I top off with tap water and retest? (pretty much a give I suppose, if, I plan on using the Bio Active rather than going for a partial drain/refill)

I'm optimistically hopeful that all the issues revolve around the high CYA and once that is under control the pool will be a pleasure rather than a pain.

Cheers,
 
Welcome back.

I am sorry that you are optimistic, because if you read all the threads discussing this new product, you will find very mixed results ... mostly leaning toward the negative.

If you want to take control of your pool, you need to invest in one of the Recommended Test Kits, stay out of the pool stores and avoid their potions, and follow the ShockLevelAndMAINTAIN Process.

Although likely your first step needs to be replacing water to lower the CYA.

It seems that you have been wildly try to change the TA, which is the least important parameter to worry about.

Have you discovered Pool School yet? Start with these:
ABCs of Water Chemistry
Recommended Pool Chemicals
How to Chlorinate Your Pool
 
Hang in there Septimosprime! :) The sky will open-up and all pool mysteries will be answered once your TF-100 gets in. After having mine, I can't ever imagine not having it. Going to the "local pool store" was the biggest mistake ever. Even my pool builder gave my bad info. TFP was the only place that fixed my cloudiness right away - and kept it that way. Until the kit gets in, everything is a guess. If you do indeed have to drain to lower CYA, rest-assured it will probably be the last time you have to do it once you have the TF-100 to check on your own. In the meantime, look for bleach on sale, and do NOT buy any pool products from the local pool store. Keep posting if you have any questions now or when your kit arrives. PS ~ They put very nice instructions in that TF-100 kit.
 
Septimosprime said:
Hey, everyone.


I'm confused with the FC reading because there was no chlorine until he added the Fresh N Clear to the test vial. Should I use Fresh N Clear to free up the chlorine already in the pool. Should I raise the FC by using liquid chlorine. Should I get rid of the green before using the Bio Active? Should I use Bio Active at all? Should I top off with tap water and retest? (pretty much a give I suppose, if, I plan on using the Bio Active rather than going for a partial drain/refill)

Cheers,
Click to expand...

This is yet another example of why so many here on TFP consider pool stores to be evil. What this person at the pool store was doing is a scam to get you to buy some VERY expensive, non-chlorine shock! And, it won't help you or your pool water but it will make the pool store very rich.

[EDIT]

I'm putting a heading on the section below because I'm not 100% sure my explanation is technically accurate. Others will have to review it and check me. I still believe adding MPS shock granules does something that interferes with the free chlorine test and makes it appear to generate chlorine, but I am not fully certain what that is.

Please see this post by user @chem geek for the correct technical explanation.

Everything below here should be ignored as it is not correct.

[END-EDIT]

SPECULATIVE CHEMICAL EXPLANATION

Fresh 'N Clear is nothing more than Leslie's formulation of non-chlorine, MPS shock (potassium monopersulfate with a bunch of other minor additives). I'm not sure what chemistry they are using to check your free chlorine and combine chloramine levels but I can guess that they are probably using a DPD colorimetric test. Your water is probably very low on free chlorine but quite high in combine chloramines (the bad oxidation products of chlorine reacting with organics). The trick this snake-oil salesman is pulling on you is that the DPD-only reagent only measures free chlorine (hypochlorous acid, hypochlorite and any chlorine combined with cyanuric acid). SO it probably shows a very weak pink color or maybe even clear which indicates no free chlorine.

Then the jerk puts in a few granules of MPS shock and, VIOLA!, the solution turns bright pink and he exclaims with the singing of a joyous choir of angels behind him that he has liberated your magically imprisoned chlorine!!! Hallelujah, hallelujah, the chlorine is FREE!!

Well, no. What the MPS shock granules did was oxidize the combine chloramines (monochloramine, dichloramine, etc) to release the chlorine from the combined chloramines which is similar to how the potassium iodide reagent (R-0003) in the Taylor test kit releases the chlorine from the CC's so you can measure them independently from the free chlorine. Once that chlorine is released from the CC's, the DPD indicator turns pink again. The problem is that MPS shock will oxidize the chloramines in your pool water but the chlorine released in that reaction turns into chloride (salt) not free chlorine compounds like hypochlorous acid. So the MPS shock will just lower your CC's, maybe kill a little algae but otherwise not drastically affect your water chemistry.

So the point here is that there is no magic involved and the very expensive MPS shock will do little to help your pool. And the slimy salesman should be arrested for fraud....

Wait for your test kit to arrive, read everything you can here on TFP and never go back to that pool store again.

Ugh, I'm sickened by the snake oil salesman and need a shower....
 
Last edited:
Steve-in-VA said:
Joyful you should get into the pool maintenance business...if you're not already. Your knowledge of pool chemistry is pretty impressive
Click to expand...

Thanks for encouragement but, honestly speaking I'm wrong way more often than I am right so my previous explanation could be totally wrong from a chemistry perspective. In fact, I would love nothing more than for others to check the explanation and correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps I should have put a bold-face "SPECULATIVE" heading on it so as to be more accurate.

My rambling response was written late at night and if my explanation of what the pool store did with the Fresh N Clear is wrong, then I am just as bad as they are in terms of being misleading. That's what I believe is at the heart of the TFPC Method - to cut through all the misleading cow manure that is out there and to apply basic chemistry knowledge and commonsense to pool care so that everyone can have clean and safe water to swim in.

The pool store is doing something funky and, in my opinion fraudulent, with that test and the Fresh N Clear whether or not my explanation is correct. It's not right to trick people like that and it makes the case against pool stores stronger.
 
Hi Septimoseprime,

Kudos to you on ordering the TF100 and taking control of your pool.

Regarding your CYA,
depending on exactly your location, there may be an alternative to draining and reflilling and the less than stellar of Bio.... Reverse Osmosis may be a very viable option for you. I'm assuming your location of LA ish, is the Los Angles area?

If so, do some googling on reverse osmosis availability in your area. *I know for sure its available around San Diego*. In the long run, that may be well worth the cost as long as you control the CYA and dont let it happen again.

hope this helps,
 

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And another thing - even if my explanation is totally wrong there is still one thing that is true - there a huge a world of difference between what happens in a test tube and what's going on in your swimming pool. Test tubes and the chemical tests we perform are carefully designed to attempt to measure a single water parameter whilst reducing the number of possible interferences from other side reactions. These tests are determinative of a single water parameter. They can not add other chemicals in a blind manner and then claim that the results are at all accurate or predictive of what will happen in a pool volume that is thousands of times bigger than the sample tube. By adding anything extra to the FC test outside of the specified reagent chemicals provided, they completely invalidate any results seen in the test tube. That is the other maddening part about all this - the pools stores often violate all standard scientific practices and then try to definitely draw a conclusion from what they are doing and use it to sell you stuff you don't need.

Geez, I need to drink less coffee or maybe go jump in the pool, I'm getting way too worked up over this.....:grrrr: + :swim: = :D
 
I just wanted to welcome you to TFP! You have been given great advice and have great test kit on the way. As long as you follow the advice give, you will be swimming before you know it and have complete control over your pool!
 
I use the MPS non-chlorine shock right after I have a dozen 6 year olds in my pool. That's the only time I use it. I think it works wonders on the ah... pee factor :D
 
JoyfulNoise summary of the MPS added to the chlorine test is pretty much right.
Nothing more I can really add.

Buyer beware of what the pool store and pool industry present to you. Their job is to sell pool products and they are good at it. This is nothing more than a dog and pony show that dazzles the unsuspecting pool owner and they end up buying the magic potion.

The reason the unsuspecting pool owner is having problems to begin with, is because they are unaware of the CYA to FC relationship. If you maintain that relationship of CYA/.115, then there will not be any monoclhoramines, dichloramines or trichloramines (combined chlorines) to oxidize in that dazzling test, and the dog and pony show goes up in smoke.
 
Divin Dave said:
JoyfulNoise summary of the MPS added to the chlorine test is pretty much right.
Nothing more I can really add.

Buyer beware of what the pool store and pool industry present to you. Their job is to sell pool products and they are good at it. This is nothing more than a dog and pony show that dazzles the unsuspecting pool owner and they end up buying the magic potion.

The reason the unsuspecting pool owner is having problems to begin with, is because they are unaware of the CYA to FC relationship. If you maintain that relationship of CYA/.115, then there will not be any monoclhoramines, dichloramines or trichloramines (combined chlorines) to oxidize in that dazzling test, and the dog and pony show goes up in smoke.
Click to expand...

Thanks Dave!!

As always, I should just keep quiet, search the TFP threads and repost links to information.... SMH

Check out this post by @JasonLion explaining why MPS should not be used in conjunction with the standard DPD test.
 
Welcome fellow drought-sufferer :wave:

Hate to tell you this, but I could put a drop of plain old clorox in the test tube and get massive FC readings. Aside from the bio-active and obscure parts, there's no reason for you to set foot in the pool store again. And I sure hope the algaecide you poured in wasn't copper based. Unless your favorite Batman villain was the Joker.

Supposedly, there will soon be someone set up to do reverse osmosis in LA county. Maybe he'll see this thread and reply. but I wouldn't wait for it.

Go ahead and try the bio-active. You've shovelled so much money at the pool already, what's another fifty bucks? If it works, it will have paid for itself in unused water. If it doesn't, you've just added to the general store of knowledge here.
 
@Divin Dave: Good thought and I did do some research, but thus far it seems like AZ, San Diego, and OC are the major beneficiaries of the reverse osmosis. I have yet to find a company in the LA/San Bern county areas. I'll keep trying. I did call Suburban Water yesterday to find out about water restrictions to learn my area (San Gabriel Valley) is not under any pool water restricts, yet. I still doesn't ease my nervousness about wasting water but, as the she expressed, it's better than breeding mosquitos.
 

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