Shock Therapy Free With Pool.....OUCH!!!

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DMAN11

DMAN11

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May 12, 2008
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Baton Rouge, LA area
Hey guys, I am happy to say that we finally got our pool installed, and yes I will definitely post some pics as soon as I can.

BUT, we are currently (no pun intended) dealing with a "shocking" sensation when touching the concrete deck and water at the same time. OR when sitting with feet in pool and touching the handrail by the steps. We only notice it in "open" wounds or scratches on our fingers. It's not very strong, but it's there.

I have read a number of threads here and it seems that a few others have been through similar issues. I would like to hear from some of them to hear their resolutions or fixes. I read one post by "cubbie" about putting a ground rod by the equip pad?? And I think MikeInTN said he has a ground rod also. Was your problems similar to mine, and if so did the rods eliminate the problems??? Will it help my situation?

It seems that John T is the man when it comes to this topic, so John T, here is what we know and have tried.....please help if you can my friend...

The pool is a polymer wall pool, so the PB says they don't bond it like metal wall pools. There is a metal coping aroun the pool so they run a bare copper wire from the metal coping, to the equip pad. They run the bare copper wire through an "eyelet", "coupling" thing on the booster pump and tighten it down, then run it over to the Hayward pump to a coupling thing and tighten it down. They say that's all they need to bond their pools.....Is this enough???

The concrete deck does not have rebar in it (not my choice). They use small strips between joints called "key-way" (not sure on spelling). It looks like either galvinized strips or aluminum strips, not sure on that.... No wires going from ladder rails to coping, or from handrail to coping...I thought they should have connected them, but they say they "do all their pools this way" and never have any problems.... Of course I'M THE FIRST, right? Just my luck!!!

When I called them, the pb said it was the electrician's problem. He said that the electrician did not separate the ground from the neutral in the sub-panel he put up for the pool. I called the electrician and he came and did this by adding a bar inside the sub-panel to separate the ground and neutrals. Still feel the shock.

The pb came out and disconnected the bond wire from the pumps, still there. He disconnected the grounds in the box, still there. He disconnected the hots, still there. He pulled the breakers out of the sub-panel box,,,,still there. I went to the main breaker on the house, turned off the main power breaker,,,, and IT'S STILL THERE.... We put a multimeter on the cement to the water and got a reading of .25 to .27 volts, even when the main was off.

SOOO, I called the power company, and they are sending out someone today to take a look.... Do you guys have any suggestions on this??? The shock therapy would probably do me some good every now and then, but our visitors might take offense.....hehe

Thanks in advance guys for all the help, and sorry to start a new thread on an old subject, but you know.....

Thanks,,,,DMAN
 
Your problem is the fact that the concrete isn't connected to the bonding system. Damp concrete is a conductor. It also sounds like your railing isn't bonded either. The light housing, ladder and hand rails HAVE to be bonded, and I can't imagine any pool installer or electrician not knowing that. To be right by code, you need a copper grid under the concrete that is connected to the bonding system as well, but you could have gotten by connecting the bond wire to the rebar.

You also have another issue in that there is stray voltage on your property. This is either a power company issue or an issue with a faulty piece of electrical equipment on your property or a neighbor's. Well pumps are common culprits. You could have a problem with your neutral as well, but since an electrician has been in the box, I'd assume he would have checked.

If you live in town, was the installation inspected? If you do live in town, do you know what version of the NEC your town has adopted?

A ground rod might mask the problem, but you'll still have a safety issue of any part of your pool or equipment becomes energized due to a wiring problem.
 
John T,

Thanks for the quick reply, and the info. As for your questions, no we live outside of city limits, and there was no inspectors here. I was here pretty much every day of the build, and no inspections done. I am also not sure of the NEC version, I'll try to check on that.

As for the bonding stuff with the ladder and rail, I kinda thought so to, but you know when you say something to the "professionals" about their work......WOW!! Is there anything I can do now other than ripping out all the concrete and spending so much money again?

The dirt is still fresh, so is there a way to go under the concrete with the copper wire? Say, if I go to the edge on the concrete where a peice of the key-way (cement joint stuff) is and chip away the bottom edge of concrete, then can I tie into the key-way with a copper wire and join it to the main bond wire they used? It's not a copper grid, but will this bond the concrete, or will it have to be more than that? Will something like this work ya think? I know it may sound foolish, but just grasping at straws at this point...

As for the stray voltage/faulty equipment thing, we don't have well pumps around here I don't think. We have running water, so we don't have wells. We do live in a subdivision, with underground power lines though and houses are pretty close together,,,maybe that could be part of the issue with the stray voltage?

Thanks again,,,,

DMAN
 
DMAN11 said:
The dirt is still fresh, so is there a way to go under the concrete with the copper wire? Say, if I go to the edge on the concrete where a peice of the key-way (cement joint stuff) is and chip away the bottom edge of concrete, then can I tie into the key-way with a copper wire and join it to the main bond wire they used? It's not a copper grid, but will this bond the concrete, or will it have to be more than that? Will something like this work ya think? I know it may sound foolish, but just grasping at straws at this point...

As for the stray voltage/faulty equipment thing, we don't have well pumps around here I don't think. We have running water, so we don't have wells. We do live in a subdivision, with underground power lines though and houses are pretty close together,,,maybe that could be part of the issue with the stray voltage?
Click to expand...

If I were in your spot, I'd try the deal with copper wire. Maybe even use copper grounding rods so you can hammer them under there. I'd even think about drilling into the edge of the concrete to try to get some conductors in there as well.

The most common cause of the stray voltage is poor grounding practices by the utility. Some utilities are pretty good at figuring it out and fixing it. Some are clueless.
 
UPDATE.....

The power company came out and checked what they could. They pulled power from my box, and nothing,,,,shock still there. They pulled power from my house (disconnected lines in main power junction box of property),,,, shock still there. They even went as far as shutting down the transformer that ran the 3 houses on our corner and that shut down our "section" of the power,,,, and shock still there. We are on a corner, so it's like we're the "end of the branch" so to speak.

He did say he couldn't go to the next step because that would be shutting down a section of the neighborhood grid and that would be too many customers without proper approval.

SO, with all that being done, I'm thinking it kind of eliminates the power company except for stray voltage,,,,,am I right here?


Is it down now to the PB just not bonding enough? Or something else?
 
{If I were in your spot, I'd try the deal with copper wire. Maybe even use copper grounding rods so you can hammer them under there. I'd even think about drilling into the edge of the concrete to try to get some conductors in there as well.}

John T,,,are you saying to drive ground rods under the edge of the concrete like all around the pool, then tie them into the bonding wire the PB used from the coping to the pumps? OR are you saying putting a ground rod into the ground and tie them into that?

With the copper wire thing, do you mean drill multiple holes into the edges of the concrete and basically loop in and out with copper wire, then tie that into the bond wire the PB used from the coping to the pumps?


I will try to add a pic showing what I think you mean, is this correct? The lightest color copper wire is representing the PB's "bonding" wire. It goes from the metal coping to the 2 pumps. That's it, it never goes to a ground or anything. The pool deck is about 30-40 feet out from the house and 40 ft across as a reference for size.

I did read on a thread here about adding ground rods "into the ground" around the pool deck might help make the stray voltage "go around" the pool and not into it. I asked the power company guy about this and he stated that this will basically create a "ground field" which I wouldn't want in my back yard because there are power line behind our property which may be giving the stray voltage. He said that if lightning would hit those lines, it may jump over to my "ground field"? which may not be too good. Would your idea create the same thing?? Or should that not be a worry here?

John, I really appreciate you taking the time to help on this....If it weren't for people like you and the others here at TFP, I would have this thing dug up and hauled off tomorrow!!hehe

Thanks Again,,,,,,,

DMAN
 

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DMAN11 said:
John T,,,are you saying to drive ground rods under the edge of the concrete like all around the pool, then tie them into the bonding wire the PB used from the coping to the pumps? OR are you saying putting a ground rod into the ground and tie them into that?

With the copper wire thing, do you mean drill multiple holes into the edges of the concrete and basically loop in and out with copper wire, then tie that into the bond wire the PB used from the coping to the pumps?
Click to expand...

Ground rods driven in horizontally right under the concrete is what I was thinking. I think we are on the same track. I can't say it will work, just that it's what I'd try.

I can't advise about the power lines behind your home and the safety of ground rods. Canadian code requires a ground rod on the bonding system, while US code doesn't. The difference is mostly that the ground makes the pool a little safer in lightning storms while it also can create ground currents and differential that might make the pool less safe in the event of an electrical accident. I stay out of the pool if lightning is in the area, so I tend to think electrical accidents are a bigger danger. That would be things like a neighbor raising a backhoe boom and contacting a power line. You can't control it or predict it.

My pool sits at a 45 degree angle to the house as well. Obviously yours was a result of your lot shape. We like it as it makes it easier to see the whole pool from the house.
 
So John,, would you recommend the rods AND drilling holes into the concrete edge? If so, I was thinking on the left side which is the wider side, I can put 3 8ft ground rods under the concrete. On the right side, I could fit two 8ft rods. Then on the long side of the pool where we have only 4ft of concrete, I could cut rods into 2ft long sections to use there and put like 4 along that side (1 every 8ft). I was also thinking about using your idea about the copper wire into the drilled holes on the edge of the concrete. I could drill a hole in between the rods so as to have a rod, a wire, a rod, a wire, and so on every 4ft or so all the way around the pool. Do you think this sound like a worthy plan? I should then run that continuous wire and connect it to the pb's bonding wire going from the coping to the pumps, right? This would maybe then bond the entire pool, and concrete deck?? MAYBE?

The power company guy said he was gonna talk to their engineers, and try to get them out here to do more testing. I'm hoping they can somehow eliminate the stray voltage and we'll be done with it. But if they don't or choose not to and put it on the pb, (if they can do that),,, I guess this may be worth trying.

One thing,,, we did run a ground wire when all power was shut off from the house ground to the pb's bonding wire from the coping to the pumps, and no result. Shock was still there. So, the idea of putting a ground rod by the equip pad and running a ground wire from the pumps to the rod probably won't work will it? Apparently the stray voltage is getting in somewhere else. The pb did tell me that there is a ground for the light that is under the water in the light niche?? Does that make sense? and do you think that can be where the voltage is getting in, or might it be getting in straight through the concrete?

Man, this stuff has me baffled to the max.... It's amazing how something so exciting as getting a pool can suddenly turn into something so trying of the patience and discouraging.

Thanks Again John,,,,,

DMAN

PS-- Any others taking time to view this thread, please feel free to offer suggestions....all help and ideas are welcomed.....hehe

THANKS!!!!
 
The thing to remember is that the stray voltage is caused by current flowing through the earth. Since the pool is large, the voltage at one part is different from the voltage at other parts. That voltage is probably different from the voltage where your house's electrical service ground rod is.

In order to feel a shock, you have to be touching two different voltages. In your case, you are getting the pool water voltage, which is the voltage of the bond wire, and because of the pump housing, the same voltage as your service entrance ground rod at one point, and the voltage that is present in the soil near your pool at the other point. That's why nothing changed when you ran the wire from the service ground to the bond wire. They are already connected through the pump housing. Ground is not a fixed voltage.

The goal of the bonding system is to tie everything that a swimmer could touch while they are in or near the pool together with a piece of wire. The term used in the NEC is "equipotential bonding", which means everything tied together at the same voltage. If the bonding system is right, you could drop your service entrance line into the pool while swimming and be safe because there wouldn't be anything the swimmers could reach that was at a different voltage than the power line. But if the concrete deck is at ground potential, and the wire is at 220V, if you touch them both you get zapped. That's a long way of saying whatever you do, tie everything to the bond wire.

As to the method of installing wires, it sounds like you are thinking along the lines that I am. You being there to see what it looks like puts you in a better situation to evaluate the best way to go than me sitting here guessing over the net. I wish I could tell you that it will fix the problem, but like I said, it's just what I'd try if I were in your place. Maybe you could try it on one side and see if it improves on that side. I'd want to make as much contact between the wire and the concrete as possible to make the best electrical connection.
 
I'd like to know more about the 'power lines behind the house'. Is this a high-voltage transmission line? If you don't know the voltage give us an idea about the structure (one wood pool, two wood poles, metal tower, really big metal tower), number of conductors (the wires from pole to pole that have insulators on them) and the size of the insulators (tuna can, soup can, man's leg) and I can guess. I am wondering if there is some hi-voltage leakage to earth from that line that may be returning to its generation point through the ground of your low voltage system (i.e. 120/240 in this case). Thus more bonding/grounding would not fix it--it might make it slightly worse. The higher tension on that line, the more likely it is to be the culprit. Utilities are frequently forced to run surprisingly high voltages through residential areas, and weird stuff happens. I doubt they would power down a T-line for this just to check, but you might try to talk to someone in their Transmission & Distribution Engineering Dept. directly. In any case, keep on them--it's almost certainly their problem and not yours, given that they powered down your transformer with no effect.
 

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Thanks guys,

Durk,,,,,as for a description, the poles are single wooden pole with 3 cross peices. I think there are a total of 8 cables/wires running on them. As for insulators, on three of the lines they have brown, about the size of a saucer (small plate) stacked with 3 or 4. Then across the bottom cross strut, the have 4 lines with i think 2 smaller tea cup saucer size insulators on them (these are white).

I took a quick shot of one of the pole I could see a little further down the street (4 to 5 houses down) with my phone. Very low quality shot but maybe it will help. On the bottom of the pole in the pic, you can see this is the pole the feeds come down this pole to the ground. There are 4 white pipes with lines coming down into the ground, I'm guessing to power in the neighborhood. Like I said, this is about 4 to 5 houses away from us (350 feet?).

Hope this info helps for what you were looking for.

Thanks again for the info.....

DMAN
 

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Yeah, those top 3 conductors with the large insulators are a sub-transmission 3-phase line, I'll guess 27K from the size of the insulators. Could be as much as 45-50K. Lower ones are distribution lines you would see anywhere. At 350 feet, though, with other houses in between, I would be surprised if that is the source of the problem. I had the idea it was on your back property line, where a 27K circuit would definitely become a prime suspect to contribute to this kind of weirdness. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
 
Durk,

this particular pole is about 350ft away. The lines DO cross behind our property, about 100 to 150 feet back. There are no poles directly behind us, but the lines go through.

This weekend we actually traced the lines to a pole behind a neighbors houseabout 2 lots down. It wasn't like this one with wires coming to the ground or anything, just a "middle" pole I guess you could say. Another one was a little ways from us on the other side of us about the same as the one in the pic above. We did notice that there are "ground" wires coming from all the "hookups" on the pole down to the ground. Could this be a source of the stray voltage? If so, can they put some sort of blocker on them to keep it out, or is this totally gonna be a pool bonding issue?

I also read somewhere that some voltage could be coming from phone or cable line passing around our yard? Is this correct, and should I call the cable company to check their stuff ya think? Our phone and cable lines are running underground as well, and are about 40 to 50 feet away from the pool. Is it a possibility?

Thanks Guys,,,,,,

DMAN
 
DMAN11,

Have you made any progress in your stray voltage (stray current) problem?

Although it is possible that the cable or TV people could be at fault, I would say that it is much more probable that the electric utility is at fault. Keep at them. The advice from the http://www.mikeholt.com forums is very useful.

Since you are in a fairly new subdivision, I would say the utility is probably the problem. If you were in an older neighborhood or in the country, then faulty and/or shoddy wiring by neighbors could be at the root of the problem.

Even though the utility is the root cause of the problem, the fact that your pool was not electrically bonded properly lets the stray current problem manifest itself as the shocking you are experiencing. Properly electrically bonded pools will mask the utilities stray current problem.

How did you contract out the pool and decking? Was the pool builder responsible for both the pool and decking and other sub-contractors? If the pool builder was responsible for the electrician and the decking sub-contractor, you could and should hold the pool builder responsible for installing a properly bonded pool.

If the decking subcontractor and/or the electrician were contracted directly by you, however, that would make pinning the problem on any single entity very difficult. The bonding of the rebar in the concrete decking or the installation of the mandated "equipotential bonding grid" ends up being one of those tasks that end up being done by two different trades, with the common result that it ends up being done by neither trade.

Good luck, and let us know how things work out.

Titanium
 
Titanium,

Thanks for checking. As for progress, none has been made. I am waiting for EVERYBODY to call me back, and it seems that this is nobody's fault, but it IS still my problem.

As for the cable company, they came and checked their equipment, found a voltage that matched that close to the pool, but never heard from them since. They had to turn it over to their maintenance dept. I have called all parties a number of times, and will continue to do so.

The power company came and shut down my house's power, and even the main transformer in our s/d that controls mine and 2 other houses on our corner. Voltage still there.... I did finally get a call from one of their engineers that said he will investigate, just waiting on him to do so... They say they will investigate more, BUT now is not a good time since it is not "peak" season for power usage. Waiting till next summer when everyone is running pool pumps, A/C's and stuff like that will be better.

I had the entire job contracted to the pool builder. The guy worked in concrete before pools, so they do all their own work....digging, pool build, electrical (except subpanel box run from house main), and concrete pouring and finishing. They have been doing this for about 15-16 yrs, and we saw like 13 of their pools ranging from 13yrs old to just filling up with water. But I guess no amount of research can prepare you for everything. I EVEN specifically asked about the bonding when they were putting in the pool, and just got the "we know what we're doing" looks and explanations. They say they will help out if they can, but have already made the comment, "We do ALL our pools the same, so it's not our problem." How do I convince them????

So basically, I only have the 3 parties I think,,,,, power company, pool builder, and cable company (tv, internet, phone package). Well, and of course ME... Hopefully someone will stick with me and we'll figure this thing out. Then we can REALLY enjoy our pool.

Like I said before, it's just really discouraging to pay this much money, wait this long, and now be in a spot not knowing WHAT to do next. I mean what can I do if the power company finds nothing, or says the voltage isn't strong enough to warrant further action? Will I have to hire a lawyer to get the pool builder to bust out the pavement, and bond the structure properly???

This is not turning out to be the experience we hoped for.....

Thanks guys,,,,,DMAN
 
DMAN, I shudder to mention these words....but it may be time to get an attorney involved. A nicely worded letter from an attorney can work wonders in motivating people; you know, words such as "possible electrocution" and "negligence" tend to get attention from legal departments. If your pool builder didn't follow code, it doesn't matter if they built all of their pools the same way, all of their pools were built improperly, and they are liable for all of them.

Just my .02 .

Mike
 
DMAN,

I had the entire job contracted to the pool builder. The guy worked in concrete before pools, so they do all their own work....digging, pool build, electrical (except subpanel box run from house main), and concrete pouring and finishing.
Click to expand...

This is great news. (Well, great news considering your shocking bad news that started this whole thread.) The pool builder has no other contractors that he can point a finger at with regards to his NEC (National Electrical Code) bonding noncompliance.

http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Pooldownload.pdf

The link above contains a well-respected author's interpretation of the 2005 National Electrical Code Article 680 which covers "Swimming Pools, Spas, Hot Tubs, Fountains, and Similar Installations" starting on pdf page 16. The NEC does not, in and of itself, have any legal authority. However, most states and local jurisdictions usually incorporate the NEC into their local codes with minimal modifications. The only issue might be is that state or local authorities often take awhile to adopt the latest NEC (NEC's are revised every three years - 1999, 2002, 2005, 2008). For example, California will not adopt the 2005 NEC until sometime in 2008 or 2009. So the 2005 NEC may or may not have been in effect in your location when your pool was contracted and built. In any case, at least the 2002 NEC should be in effect where you live - and we can get you the text for the 2002 NEC if that ends up being the case for you.

NEC Article 680.26(B) (1) is paraphrased on pdf page 25 and says the following:

Article 680.26 (B) (1) Metallic Parts of Structure.
All metallic parts of the water
structure, including the reinforcing metal of the permanently
installed pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub shell and deck.
The usual steel tie-wires are considered suitable for bonding the
reinforcing steel together. Welding or special clamping is not
required, but the tie-wires must be made tight. Figure 680-22

Where the reinforcing steel of the permanently installed pool,
outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub shell and deck is encapsulated
with a nonconductive compound, or if it’s not available, provisions
must be made for an alternative means to eliminate voltage
gradients that would otherwise be provided by unencapsulated,
bonded reinforcing steel.

Author’s Comment: This means that an equipotential (stray
voltage) grid constructed in accordance with 680.26(C) must be
installed.

And NEC Article 680.26(C) is paraphrased on pdf page 25 and 26 and says the following:

Article 680.26(C) Equipotential Grid.
A solid copper conductor not smaller
than 8 AWG must be used to bond the metallic parts of a permanently
installed pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub as specified
in 680.26(B) to an equipotential (stray voltage) grid. The termination
of the bonding conductor must be made by exothermic
welding, listed pressure connectors, or listed clamps that are suitable
for the purpose.

To properly mask stray voltage, an equipotential (stray voltage)
grid must extend under walking surfaces for 3 ft horizontally
from the water, Figure 680-23. The equipotential (stray voltage)
grid must be formed from one or more of the following:

Figures 680-22 and 680-23 will be most useful in making sense of what the above paragraphs mean.

I would send a letter to your pool builder requesting that he explain to you, in writing, exactly how the pool he built complies with NEC Articles 680.26(B)(1) and 680.26(C). He will not be able to provide this, of course, because the pool builder clearly has not complied with the NEC requirements for bonding.

I am assuming that the correct way to rectifiy the pool builders electrical mistake will be for him to jackhammer out the new concrete deck, install either rebar or the equipotential gride, and repour the concrete deck. I am also assuming that this demo and reinstallation of the concrete deck would be under $7500, which is usually the limit for small claims court in many states.

Assuming that I have gotten all of the facts above correct, this should be a slam-dunk for you in small claims court.

And his excuse that he has always built pools this way will end up being an expensive lesson for him. :hammer:

Regards,

Titanium
 
Titanium said:
Assuming that I have gotten all of the facts above correct, this should be a slam-dunk for you in small claims court.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, any version of the NEC is not binding unless it has been adopted by a local ordinance. It's merely a set of guidelines that define best practices. The fact that DMAN lives outside of any city or town limits pretty well eliminates all requirements to build to code.
I built my home, pool, pool house and two barns within the last 10 years. The only government requirement was that I obtain a permit to install a septic system, and that I report any construction after completion to the county for taxation.
 

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