Filter/Air Issues on the pump and backwash issues.

[reindeerboy]

OK, first I now I have a small lateral tear as I did have to backwash today and sand came into the pool along with some cloudy water. My question is now when I try to put it back to filter, I notice that the pool works fine for a while meaning everything seems good, then all of a sudden I notice air bubbles comming into the return line. I do have a couple small leaks by the skimmer pot, and I just put magic lube on the orings to seal them up.

I did have some air comming into the return lines over the summer, but very small and thought I would take care of it all when I close the pool here in about 3-4 weeks. But now when I turn the pool off, it looses its prime in the return lines.

Of course its the weekend, and nobody is around at my PB so I left a message there for the service guy to return my call.

For the time being, the only other option I can think of on the air is that I may have another leak above ground where the multiport is. Maybe my spider gasket is shot? I suppose that would be the first culprite to start at?

I have never taken one of these aprat, so it cant be too hard as I see I do have a spare gasket lying around that I could try replacing. Can that be possible? I just want to know first before I start taking things apart? I would feel that it may be suking air back through the valve once I turn off the pump. Skimmer basket is full after I shut it off? It doesnt leak in the waste line at all either?

What do you guys think?

 

[reindeerboy]

OK, I now went out and turned the mutiport valve the other direction in the hope that it will stop loosing its prime so fast after the pump is turned off.

The result is that it did help some. There are still a few bubbles like before and that is not bad as before the bubbles were pretty bad. Now they are only small and tiny so maybe that multiport spider gasket is the culprite.

I figured I would let it run all day today and then fire it off in the morning again and take a look at it as maybe it will slowly seal itself up. As long as the pump is not loosing pressure while its running, then its surely not hurting anything. I would then just hold off till next spring and have the PB work with me on it when they change the laterals, sand, & pea gravel all at the same time including working with me in sealing up those seals that are leaking comming out of the skimmer pot.

Any suggestions?

 

[mas985]

I'm a bit confused by your description. You say that air is entering through the return lines which is impossible with the pump on since the entire return side plumbing is under pressure with the pump on so you would see a leak right away.

If you meant to say that you are getting air in the suction side plumbing then I would understand that. A suction side leak is usually caused by the pump basket lid, valves or rarely, a broken pipe. Make sure you have a good seal on the pump basket lid (check seal). If that is ok, then it could be a valve.

 

[reindeerboy]

Sorry Mas. Yes suction sid leak. The valves are getting brittle anyway, so maybe that could be it. I am not loosing any water anywhere and there is a leak comming out of the pipe running from the pump to the multiport valve that I think could be the culprit as well.

What is happening is that when I turn the pump off, I can hear air running back into the return lines going to the pool. So that would mean there is an air leak somewhere and I even turn those valves off and it still does it so that could most defitly be it.

Right now the bubbles are small in nature while the pump is running. PSI stays consistent so that is a good thing. My plan is to hopefully finish out the season, and then winterize that X!X! pool.

Then I know I need new sand and laterals for next spring, so I plan to fix the leaks mentioned above that I know of and replace those valves properly as well with the Pool Dude when he is present next spring to give me a hand in figuring this out. I figure its best to fix the most common items first and work from there.

I probably got my "panties in a bunch" earlier, but man that ticed me off. Now I am working on clearing up the cloudy pool by using some flock out tonight and then to vacuum on waste in the morning.

Here in ND, this may be our last warm weekend

Forecast is suppose to be highs in the low 60s, but I plan to try to continue to run it with less run time then until close to freezup to minimize any chance for the X!X! algae to show its ugly head.



Thanks a bunch mas!

 

[waste]

Chad, why have the PB do this for you You've been around long enough and have a good grasp on your pool - I know you can handle the sand change yourself - and probably everything else

With water coming out of the effluent port of the superpump, the fix is easy! All you need to do is unscrew the adapter from that port, re-teflon it, add a little pipe dope and an o-ring from a 1 1/2" plug to the adapter, screw the adapter back down enough so that the o-ring seals without pinching and you're all set (we use the 'triple threat' often on older units/ teflon tape, pipe dope, and an o-ring - it always works! )

The water leak from the top of the pump is allowing air into the system when the pump is off which is sucking air and killing the prime 8) Unless the pool dude is going to do this for free, you should make the fix yourself!

Hope you can get one more weekend out of the pool!!!
-Ted

 

[reindeerboy]

Thanks Ted. I actually found some spare parts that the previous owner had left and guess what, there was an extra pipe up there that has the same kind of oring. Actually its not an oring but a rubber fitting that slides over the pipe. I think I will try to tackle that one myself ted as I am pretty sure I can figure it out myself. I have pipe thread and a little tape as well and if the oring looks good, I plan to just reseal it with the pipe dope and tape and give it a whirl.

As far as the sand, the laterals also need to be changed, and I talked to the PS and they need to do a couple other things that they messed up on anyway last year with the previous owner, so they are gonna give me a huge break with the labor cost. I figure why not. Then I can pay attention as to them scooping out the old sand, and then watch them replace those laterals in there, pour in the pea gravel, and add the sand.

If you can believe this, they actually recommended using pea gravel in larger sand filters like I have. WOW, that one suprised me.

I do appreciate the vote of confidence Ted. I figure one run at it and then from here on out, will be fairly easy for future sand/lateral changes.

Fairly new to this yet, and I am a bit anal as my wife calls it so I just want to play it safe for the first year. I KNOW I can do it, but I guess a little support from a professional doesnt hurt for the first year anyway.

Thanks again as always. You guys always help a guy in need. Boy I sure was peeved today when that happened. Man I worked hard to keep the pool clean all summer and then that darn lateral had to go on me.

Oh well, I guess thats how it goes, especially on a weekend of course.

Oh yea, I sure hope we get another weekend yet as well. Got hot today and was in the pool for a few hours. Got a heck of a burn so I figure that was enough, ouch!

Thanks again Ted!

 

[reindeerboy]

UPDATE: OK Ted, I went and fixed the one leak comming off the pipe to the pump. Fixed er good. Now I turned off the pump and she still looses prime. So the plan for tomorrow is to try and find any other spots on the suction side of the pump where it is sucking air through either the valves or the lines themselves. I have a feeling, that it has to be one of those correct? Can a torn lateral cause this to happen within the filter? I would doubt it as it has to get air from somewhere and that isnt it so what do you think?

Any suggestions would be helpful? I didnt loose prime as drastically as I did after today when I had to backwash and that blew more Crud in my pool, so you wouldnt think the multiport is leaking air then would you? I dont see any air or really hear anything sucking back down, but its gotta come from one of those places correct?

Thanks again everyone!

 

[reindeerboy]

OK, today I searched all the lines and the valves. I couldnt really tell if the valves had a hairline crack in them or not. I did notice a small leak by the pump right under the pot area? I think it could be a hairline crack in the pot and the seal between it and the pump could be shot. This thing is 15 years old and is really getting to be outdated.

So I decided to probably just have the darn thing replaced next spring and then keep the old one as a spare. I plan to purchase some clear 1.5 inch flex hose to use for that as a spare then and then having a spare would be a good thing as I would hate to have to wait and have my water turn green.

I can purchase a like kind pump for $450 and the pipe and new valves are about $50-75 bucks.

I plan to do all this next spring when I have the sand and laterals replaces so then when I am working on this, the PB can be working on the sand for me and showing me as I go and then review my work on the pump as well.

So to make this short, what else could this air leak be? No water is leaking anywhere then under the pump itself so that would be my first guess. I could put in a new seal, but this thing is so darn old and inefficient that I feel going to a new pump would be the better route to go.

What are your thoughts guys/gals?

 

[waste]

Chad, many questions in a few different posts but I'll try to provide most of the answers. {I do most of my posting out of memory }

I'm GLAD that the effluent leak on the pump is solved! The laterals have NOTHING to do with keeping the pump primed. I would look at the 'spider gasket' in the multiport to see if it's warped or the 'channels' are warped or broken! I can't fully understand what you're saying about a leak near the 'hairline' crack betwixt pot and "?"

$450 for a new pump is about what my company would charge, so I think you can find one less expensive on line

I've often recommended pool owners let the 'pros' do it the first time (liner replacements, sand replacements, closings etc) and to watch what they do so that they know what needs to be done and can do it themselves in the future

Have you tried pouring water on any suspect valves and the influent port of the pump, as per this in Pool School?

I think that you'll be fine for the remainder of the season, however you handle this, but be prepared to take care of it BEFORE you open next spring We are here all winter to help with any questions you have - make the best use of this resource by asking questions so that you always have a 'trouble free pool'

 

[reindeerboy]

Thanks Ted.

Yes. Your suggestions are well received. I did pour water, but dah, I should of been watching for less bubbles in the pump baskek. I was thinking the opposit so will try again here later.

I did just replace the pump lid seal and used some lube to seal it up so I would dought that this would be it. My next thought would be the spider gasket. Can that cause air to leak? Maybe it can by drawing air in through the top of the valve as the gasket may be damaged like you stated, so that will be the second area I may work on tomorrow before I start the pool up again.

It was 90 today and I dought that we will see this nice weather again so we plan to play in the pool tonight as long as we can anyway. Been it it all day and that has been awesome.

OK, now the air draw has reduced some in nature. I only see a time or two every few minuttes where the filter must gather the air and shuve it back through the return lines.

Again I appreciate your help and do you think this is what I should try first as I would dought it would be anything underground as new lines were put in 2 years ago?

Thanks

 

[reindeerboy]

UPDATE: OK, I pulled the multiport valve off and WOW. The gasket was all messed up. Luckily I found a whole used multiport in the attic that the previous owners must of kept for spare parts. I then used the new head as well as the old one had a bubble on the hard plastic on the outside of the valve. Not sure how this happened but I didnt see any cracks on the inside anywere?

I replaced the gasket with a much better one and I used lube on it before putting it all back together. I then turned the pump on. I then bled off the air from the filter top and then shut it off and it held the prime. It still is getting air into it while the pump is on, so that must mean the pump itself is pulling air into the system correct? I got down there with a flashlight and I can see water leaking a bit from the bottom of the pump. Luckily the pump seems to still be working OK, but its 15 years old and probably due for a new one. The pressure still holds steady, so to help with the air its pulling in, I just cracked the top of the filter bleed valve for the time being and that made a huge difference. That will get me by for the next 3 weeks and then its time to close the pool anyway.

What do you guys think? You would think that if it was a pipe air leak or the valves leaking air, that it would drop air back into the pipes when I shut it off? I also ran water over the filter and thats not cracked in any way. I did run a little water by the pump but didnt want to get to close to it so I dont damage it while it was running. That did seem to help some so, I guess I will run with that.

Any other suggestions. Pics below. Top 2 lines are the returns & skimmer and bottom one is main drain. They run alone the house for about 25 feet and then head into the ground from there.

 

[duraleigh]

I got down there with a flashlight and I can see water leaking a bit from the bottom of the pump.

There is normally a drain plug somewhere around the bottom of the pump strainer basket. That should have a couple of wraps of teflon tape around it and should be hand tight. If not, it can suck in air (pump running) and leak water (pump off)

 

[reindeerboy]

Good point Dave. Those actually were replaced this spring with rubber washers on them and are hand tight. I was thinking of that as well and plan to put a bit of tape tonight on them just to be certain as I need to clean the pump pot basket anyway.

Sounds like rain here and wheey its muggy out. So I will try to get r done before the rain moves in. Cold this next week so am going to now jump in the pool now which is at 82.

If you guys can think of anything else then let me know but so far those 2 plugs do not leak water but who knows, maybe they are still sucking in air or have a slow leak? Will take a look at them tonight.

Thanks Dave. Have a good labor day!

 

[reindeerboy]

I also called the local PB and talked to the service guy there. He confirmed that if the pump is leaking water, then air is also getting sucked in there while its running and causing my issues. At least it holds its pressure so that I can finish out this season anyway.

I already was planning on replacing that relec of a pump anyway to try and help on on the electricity costs as the newer ones have to be a bit more efficient then these right? Its a one stage pump and I would probably leave it at that since we only use the pool 5 months a year anyway.

Since its 1.5 HP pump it only takes 110/115 volts but the old one has a hard wire plumbed into it, so I probably will order the new one that way as well as I like the fact that its all weather proof. What are your thoughts on that one?

One good thing was that even the PB said to limp it through this year and close it up and then they could help me do all this work next spring and the guy even said they would show me how to change the sand & laterals and was surpised on the pea gravel comment, but said that it was a good idea and could help me do that as well. They even said that they would match the price on the pump to whatever I found online and would help me install that as well. Wow, that one surprised me. They must want the business.

So some good news at least came out of this anyway.

Weather sucks up here right now. Its my daughters birthday this week and she was hoping to have a pool party this weekend. Maybe the weather will cooperate and keep the pool in the mid 70s range. Now is the time I wish I had a heater on the pool. Something to think about down the road.

Thanks everyone for the help over the holiday weekend. It sure gives me a little more confidence in doing some of these things myself. I am learning more and more each year with all of your help. Dave, Ted, Mas - You guys rock!

Have a fantastic day!

 

[waste]

Chad, I think that everything you posted is great!! Sounds like you've got one of the few good PBs out there 8)

Please keep us informed as to how things go -- and stay with us all winter

 

[reindeerboy]

You got it Ted!

I definitely will.

I do snowmobile a ton out in the mountains in the winter as I just ordered a new sled last spring and it is being built this month with delivery this November. Excited is the word here!

Just to clarify, that the pipe mess in the front of my filter there is a mess correct? I also figure that there must be a hairline crack in those old valves as I close them at night and it does leak a bit back toward the pool so a hairline crack could be the word here letting some air that the filter leaks back into the pot and then back to those lines.

I just figured that since I am replacing the pump, to cut that Crud out of there and put in a nice, clean system without that hose attachment that the previous owner was using to prime the pump everyday. Apparantly I found his previous notes, and he thought it was strange that he had to do this everyday. :grrrr:

He owned this house 3 years prior to us, so it surpised me that he would never take the time to find these pool forums to discuss these things and figure out why.

At least I know I am doing things correctly!

Again thanks to all who helped. I plan to post pics next spring when I get the work completed.

 

[reindeerboy]

Ted,

I just wanted to point out that I think I found my air issue. I think I have a hairline crack in the skimmer pot right in front of the pump. Not only does is leak a bit, it also sucks in air and the pump seal is going as well. I can now hear a bit of grinding in the pump motor meaning the bushings in the motor are heading south.

Sounds like my choice to replace the whole thing is pretty much a given now for next spring. :grrrr:

Just thought you guys would like to know.

Thanks

 

[waste]

Chad, if you want to keep what you can - not have to buy a new pump - it's possible to fix your problems I think #1 should be a new shaft seal assembly (SP-1600 Z2) - I've got step by step instructions posted for that - it will stop the water from getting into the pump internals - it won't fix the small grind, but will stop it from worsening. You can put a 2 part epoxy 'band aid' on the housing crack (any chance the old owners left a pump housing SP -1600 AA ?).

Looking at that pic of the system - a couple thoughts on making it a little 'neater' tryed to percolate into my brain, but I'd need to know a little more about the pad size and the height of the various pipes - maybe this is something we can discuss over the winter (when your not enjoying the new sled 8) )

Hope all's good! Did your daughter get her pool party?

 

[reindeerboy]

Thanks Ted. Yep, I can get you whatever you need in size. The pipes basically lay on the ground and then the return line is the top one that angles around.

This winter, I plan to take the pump right off the housing and disconnect the wiring and pull it in the heated garage to see if I can salvage the motor anyway. We can discuss that process this winter like you said. I would greatly appreciate it. I plan to replace it regardless, but wanted it as a spare backup pump.

As far as the skimmer basket goes, I did put a little epoxy bandade or at least as much as I could get too as it is on the ground in between the motor and the back of the pot. Time for a new one anyway.

My thoughts are to sit down and draw something better up for the plumbing, so I would be really curious on what you recommend to make this much more cleaner and simpler of a design. Nothing fancy as I dont really need a timer on the electricity side of things, and turning the valves manually is fine for us right now. Maybe something to think about further down the road, but for next year, I would be happy to just get it from sucking in the air, and to stop it from leaking water as well. I attached a couple more pics for you to examine when you have time of course.

Nothing pressing as we plan to close this up on the 17th ( took it off from work).

The sled will be awesome and I cant wait to ride it. I attached a pic of where we ride if you are curious about that as well. 2 years ago, a buddy of mine perished in an avy out there. I am certified in CPR, but was not fortunate enought to revive him. That spurred a life change, and so came this house.

The pool party took place. Beautiful today till it rained! :grrrr:

Then the party was over and we had to move it inside. Today it was 70 for a pool temp, and that was COLD! Last swim of the year.

Again, I really want to thank ya Ted for taking the time to help me out.

Enjoy the pics!

 

[launboy]

I read this thread and noticed how you were talking about re-plumbing your equip. pad next spring to make it a little neater/nicer looking. Since I wan't doing anything and like drawing in paint, I came up with a little diagram/picture thing.

Here's the drawing...

The 3-way valve could be moved closer to the pump if you'd like. I just put it there to make the drawing clearer, but this design uses a couple of feet less PVC.

THis might give you a coupe other ideas.

HTH,
Adam