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Thread: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

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    Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    I recently had a algae problem that this forum helped me resolve. Thank you. I went to the pool store today to buy my polyquat 60 and the pool person suggested I use "No More Problems". I believe the bottle listed sodium bromide as the ingredient. The pool employee told me that "polyquat 60 was formulated by companies on the west coast for west coast algae. Living in South Florida we have different trees and algae problems." I was reading the bottle but the instructions were vague. The pool store guy told me to "just give it a good squirt once a week".

    Needless to say I bought the Polyquat 60. I couldn't get home fast enough to post my experience and get the opinion of the true and unbiased professionals.

    Thank you
    15k Diamond Brite, Aquarite SWG, 1.5hp StaRite, Hayward Star Clear 17502, AquaCal heat pump, Pentair Great White pool cleaner

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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    "West coast algae" seems a bit of a stretch. I have no idea what's in the product he wanted to sell you but keep in mind that BBB uses no "magic bullets" (except chlorine)
    Dave S. - Forum owner
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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    I found the website and this is odd. "No More Problems". The MSDS does not state the chemical. The brochure also has a note about what reagent test to use for checking the chlorine.

    "Is DPD (Pink Test) the best test for chlorine?
    No! Our extensive field experience has shown that the OTO (yellow test) is a better choice. Let each test stand for 5 minutes before reading and don't worry about combined or free chlorine. No Mor Problems®makes depending on the DPD (pink) test obsolete."
    15k Diamond Brite, Aquarite SWG, 1.5hp StaRite, Hayward Star Clear 17502, AquaCal heat pump, Pentair Great White pool cleaner

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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    The MSDS does not list ingredients, but this site indicates that it is 41.4% sodium bromide. However, pictures of the bottle as shown here make it look like the active ingredient name is longer so if you could find out what it really is, that would be helpful.

    Sodium bromide added to a chlorine pool will use up some chlorine as the bromide is converted to bromine. They say this on their website here when they say "No Mor Problems® affects the test for chlorine initially and causes a lower reading than is actually occurring." This is most effective as an algaecide in high CYA pools because bromine does not combine with CYA so is at "full strength". An initial treatment of 3 fluid ounces per 5000 gallons, assuming a density of the product close to water, would be 88.7 ml * 1 g/ml * 0.414 = 36.7 grams in 18,927 liters or 36.7 * 1000 / 18927 = 1.9 mg/L sodium bromide which is 1.5 ppm bromine (and would consume about 0.8 ppm chlorine). Remember that our shock levels listed here are roughly equivalent to having 0.6 ppm chlorine (at pH 7.5) with no CYA.

    Though it would appear that the bromine is at a much higher level than chlorine, it is also a weaker oxidizer than chlorine so the net effect is that this product is basically no better than maintaining appropriate chlorine levels. If someone has high CYA in their pool, then as you know, they need to maintain higher FC levels to prevent algae growth. As an alternative, at extra cost, this product can be used so then you don't need to maintain a higher FC level. Of course, the same can be said for using PolyQuat algaecide, again at extra cost.

    Richard
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    Quote Originally Posted by whowouldfigga
    I recently had a algae problem that this forum helped me resolve. Thank you. I went to the pool store today to buy my polyquat 60 and the pool person suggested I use "No More Problems". I believe the bottle listed sodium bromide as the ingredient. The pool employee told me that "polyquat 60 was formulated by companies on the west coast for west coast algae. Living in South Florida we have different trees and algae problems." I was reading the bottle but the instructions were vague. The pool store guy told me to "just give it a good squirt once a week".

    Needless to say I bought the Polyquat 60. I couldn't get home fast enough to post my experience and get the opinion of the true and unbiased professionals.

    Thank you
    The Pool store was feeding you a line of BS. No mor problems is made by United Chemical who are located in Piru, California! That seems pretty west coast to me! They make a whole range of products based on sodium bromide. This one is 41% sodium bromide solution, the rest being inert ingrediengts! If you want an East Coast company that makes sodium bromide products try Proteam. They were located in St. Augustine, Florida until they were bought by Haviland. They have a similar product! At any rate, there is no such thing as East coast or West Coast algae!!!! I would use poly 60 or borates before I used sodium bromide. It can be a cure worse than the disease!

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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    Don't make a joke of this. The East Coast algae and West Coast algae are in the middle of a big turf war!


    TFP Founder

    My Pool: 13K gal IG gunite with 7' spa, Pentair Cartridge Filter, Intellichlor IC40 SWG, Polaris 280 Cleaner, TF-100 Test Kit w/ salt test.

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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    Of course, the place where I bought my pool said that in the Tucson area we have the biggest algae problem of all...
    Above ground soft side Omega pool
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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    Sean, you are right, there are turf wars when it comes to algae . There are actually some regional variations in algae and you can find out more about all kinds of different algae here and can search the algae database by region (state) as well. Nevertheless, there are lots of overlaps and chlorine inhibits the growth of all of these algae. Sodium bromide isn't more effective against some vs. others either -- at least not to any great extent [EDIT](bromine may be somewhat more effective against yellow/mustard algae and is used in some specialty algicides)[END-EDIT]. Even though there are many different species of algae, at the end of the day you've got your basic free-floating green (with less-clumping clearer vs. clumping darker "cousins"), your slow growing plaster-loving slime-layered black, and your more resistant shade-loving dust-like yellow/mustard.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    Thanks guys / gals. I will stick with the poly60
    15k Diamond Brite, Aquarite SWG, 1.5hp StaRite, Hayward Star Clear 17502, AquaCal heat pump, Pentair Great White pool cleaner

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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    Wasn't there some blurb somewhere about having Bromine in a pool making it always a bromine pool? Maybe I'm way off, but I thought I had read something about bromine using up chlorine, or chlorine converting 'used' bromine to 'new' bromine again, or something.

    Anyone?
    [center:1kpalu48]Helpful Links: Pool School | CYA/Chlorine Chart | Pool Calculator[/center:1kpalu48]

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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    You can read more about "once a bromine pool; always a bromine pool" here at PoolSolutions. For an outdoor pool with lower levels of bromide, it eventually will dissipate (probably outgas) but in the meantime you've got a bromine pool. Bottom line is that it isn't necessary.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    I made a mess of this pool with this stuff. I was having persistent problems with Algae all spring (before I found this site!) and started using the No Mor Problems. I had called the company with a couple of questions and the guy seemed very knowledgeable and friendly (I get the feeling they really believe in their product, not that it's just a marketing gimmick). After talking with him, I decided to give it a shot. As they described on their web site, no matter what I did, my pool wouldn't test positive for chlorine. But since they had warned me about that, I kept putting the stuff in, however the Yellow algae didn't improve. Well, then I bought "Yellow Treat" from the same company (turns out this stuff is bromide in granular form). That didn't work so I did another application (the bottle had enough for three applications) a week later and a 3rd a week after that. Problem still didn't go away.

    I started reading a little more about sodium bromide (real smart to do the research after I added it to my pool huh?) and became concerned that I had turned my pool into a bromine pool. Couple that with my high CYA and my general concern about what was left in my water after the hurricane turned it black for a while last year and I decided to do about an 80% drain and re-fill on the pool. I did a heavy dose of cal-hypo and copper based algaecide and my problems finally cleared up. That was just about the time I found this site and started using BBB and the pool has indeed been "Trouble-Free" for about six weeks and counting now.

    Bottom line, I have about 3/4 of a gallon of "No Mor Problems" I'll give to anyone for free who wants to drop by my house and pick it up. I won't be putting any more of it in my pool!
    ----------------------
    20,500 gal gunite pool w/ PebbleTec and infloor cleaning system.
    Sta-Rite System 3 cartridge filter.
    Houston, TX

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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    Well glad to see our products are generating discussion!

    Hello all, my name's Scott Hamilton and I'm from United Chemical. I saw your discussion on the No Mor Problems so I thought who better to get the info from than the man himself. My father created the entire product line (Jock Hamilton) and bestowed to me all the secrets of the products before he passed away. So here's the dirt on No Mor Problems.

    No Mor Problems is a sodium bromide based preventative algaecide. It contains approx. 41% sodium bromide, the rest being as you said "inert". However, the inert is what makes the difference (and this is true for ALL chemicals).

    As you know, sodium bromide is a salt that has the same chemical properties as sodium chloride salt- or pool salt- and behaves similiar (both chlorine and bromine are halogens on the periodic table of elements, bromine being more "reactive"). What we have done with our sodium bromide based algaecides is added a "catalyst" (the inert ingredients) to our patented formulas. This facilitates reactions between the chemicals in the water. Otherwise, the sodium bromide would do very little, just as generic salt does little without a chlorine generator. This catalyst insures that an optimum amount of hypobromic acid is produced to kill algae (and has a similiar effect on chlorine).

    Because bromine is so similiar to chlorine in chemical properties- and is a more reactive element, bromine can interfere with chlorine tests. OTO tests seem to be more resistant to this, however it can still cause a change in reading. It will not "convert" the pool to bromine (this myth was started by one of our competitors who we won't name here ). You cannot "convert" a pool to bromine if you are adding more chlorine than bromine to a pool. The majority wins, and a sodium bromide algaecide doesn't contain enough sodium bromide to convert the pool (unless you add ALOT - way more than the directions say).

    We are on the west coast, however, it works just fine on the "east coast algae" . While there may be some differences in algae by region, all algae is a single celled organism with similiar cellular structure. What's good for the west is good for the east, and vice versa.

    As far as wether No Mor Problems is better than Poly60, I'm biased so of course I'll say NMP for the win. However, I'd simply suggest trying it out versus other things on the market to find out what works best for you, and what meets your needs. The proof is in the pudding. Hope this helped answer some of the questions you had about our products. Keep the discussion going!

    - SH
    18"x33" Johnny Weissmuller Titan AGP, 52" deep with walkway and Deck, Monte Carlo Vinyl Liner, Proline 1.5 HP Cartridge Filter

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    Quote Originally Posted by CurtisT
    I made a mess of this pool with this stuff. I was having persistent problems with Algae all spring (before I found this site!) and started using the No Mor Problems. I had called the company with a couple of questions and the guy seemed very knowledgeable and friendly (I get the feeling they really believe in their product, not that it's just a marketing gimmick). After talking with him, I decided to give it a shot. As they described on their web site, no matter what I did, my pool wouldn't test positive for chlorine. But since they had warned me about that, I kept putting the stuff in, however the Yellow algae didn't improve. Well, then I bought "Yellow Treat" from the same company (turns out this stuff is bromide in granular form). That didn't work so I did another application (the bottle had enough for three applications) a week later and a 3rd a week after that. Problem still didn't go away.

    I started reading a little more about sodium bromide (real smart to do the research after I added it to my pool huh?) and became concerned that I had turned my pool into a bromine pool. Couple that with my high CYA and my general concern about what was left in my water after the hurricane turned it black for a while last year and I decided to do about an 80% drain and re-fill on the pool. I did a heavy dose of cal-hypo and copper based algaecide and my problems finally cleared up. That was just about the time I found this site and started using BBB and the pool has indeed been "Trouble-Free" for about six weeks and counting now.

    Bottom line, I have about 3/4 of a gallon of "No Mor Problems" I'll give to anyone for free who wants to drop by my house and pick it up. I won't be putting any more of it in my pool!
    I'm sorry to hear you had a difficulty with our product. When using our products, it's important to make sure you are adding the appropriate amount of oxidizer (chlorine in particular) as the directions state. Otherwise, it won't work. This is because it takes an oxidizer for a reaction to occur - and in the right amount.

    More importantly (and who you talked to should have explained this) NMP is a PREVENTATIVE, not a rescue treatment. If you have a large algae bloom in your pool, you're better off starting with a RESCUE treatment and superchlorinating. In reality, it would have been better to start with Yellow Treat, then follow-up with NMP as the bottleS suggests.

    I'm glad you had success with the copper algaecide (they do work well). We tend to shy away from metal based algaecides since they have a tendency to cause staining.

    Regardless, we stand behind our products. Contact us again and we will replace the product with one of your choosing if you wish. Mention my name to who you speak with.

    -Scott Hamilton, UCC
    18"x33" Johnny Weissmuller Titan AGP, 52" deep with walkway and Deck, Monte Carlo Vinyl Liner, Proline 1.5 HP Cartridge Filter

  15. Back To Top    #15

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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    Hi Scott, thanks for coming on-board and explaining more about your product. That is always helpful.

    I don't think anyone was saying that using your product in a small dose would turn the pool into a bromine pool though even a small dose makes it a "partial bromine" pool. They were saying that continued use of the product could do so since, as you know, a buildup of bromide ions can get to the point that any added chlorine to the pool would simply convert bromide to bromine -- hence a bromine pool. How can you give instructions for a maintenance level of No Mor Problems when you don't know the dilution rate in the pool? With cartridge filters and no backwashing and minimal splash-out, the added sodium bromide would tend to build up with continued addition (except for dissipation -- more on that below). Without a reliable way of measuring bromide or bromine vs. chlorine, you can't really know what you've got in the pool and whether you are overdoing.

    The catalysts are an interesting approach to enhancing oxidizer speed and are the basis of some enzyme products (though not all catalysts are enzymes, of course). You could offer some of that separately to enhance chlorine oxidation -- that could be a useful addition for special circumstances if reasonably priced.

    Do you have any info on the rate of dissipation of the bromine? That is, if you add 1-2 ppm (as Br2) equivalent of bromide to create that amount of bromine when chlorine is added, then how long does it take for that to get removed from the pool? Also, what is the mechanism for such removal? Is it outgassing of bromine gas (or hypobromous acid as a gas)? In this link written by Ben Powell, he mentions how your Dad told him about the breakdown of chlorine in sunlight along with shock levels of chlorine. Can you explain the mechanism to me? I can understand sufficient chlorine levels ensuring all the bromide is bromine and accelerating outgassing because of that, but I don't get what sunlight does and how bromine can be broken down in any way that doesn't result in bromide that would just get reactivated back to bromine.

    On this forum, we generally recommend maintaining an appropriate Free Chlorine (FC) relative to the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level (i.e. a minimum FC/CYA ratio) to prevent algae growth without the need for any supplemental algaecide or phosphate remover. That works really well for virtually everyone. Your product is most useful for those who get into a bad situation using too much stabilized chlorine and have very high CYA levels. In that case, they can use your product as a stopgap algaecide until they get their CYA lowered by dilution (also assuming they are unwilling or unable to maintain a higher FC level for that higher CYA level). However, without knowing how to control the bromide/bromine levels and the rate of removal, I'd rather recommend PolyQuat as the stopgap since we know that it breaks down from chlorine over time so will not build up as much.

    Richard
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Hamilton UCC
    Quote Originally Posted by CurtisT
    I made a mess of this pool with this stuff. I was having persistent problems with Algae all spring (before I found this site!) and started using the No Mor Problems. I had called the company with a couple of questions and the guy seemed very knowledgeable and friendly (I get the feeling they really believe in their product, not that it's just a marketing gimmick). After talking with him, I decided to give it a shot. As they described on their web site, no matter what I did, my pool wouldn't test positive for chlorine. But since they had warned me about that, I kept putting the stuff in, however the Yellow algae didn't improve. Well, then I bought "Yellow Treat" from the same company (turns out this stuff is bromide in granular form). That didn't work so I did another application (the bottle had enough for three applications) a week later and a 3rd a week after that. Problem still didn't go away.

    I started reading a little more about sodium bromide (real smart to do the research after I added it to my pool huh?) and became concerned that I had turned my pool into a bromine pool. Couple that with my high CYA and my general concern about what was left in my water after the hurricane turned it black for a while last year and I decided to do about an 80% drain and re-fill on the pool. I did a heavy dose of cal-hypo and copper based algaecide and my problems finally cleared up. That was just about the time I found this site and started using BBB and the pool has indeed been "Trouble-Free" for about six weeks and counting now.

    Bottom line, I have about 3/4 of a gallon of "No Mor Problems" I'll give to anyone for free who wants to drop by my house and pick it up. I won't be putting any more of it in my pool!
    I'm sorry to hear you had a difficulty with our product. When using our products, it's important to make sure you are adding the appropriate amount of oxidizer (chlorine in particular) as the directions state. Otherwise, it won't work. This is because it takes an oxidizer for a reaction to occur - and in the right amount.

    More importantly (and who you talked to should have explained this) NMP is a PREVENTATIVE, not a rescue treatment. If you have a large algae bloom in your pool, you're better off starting with a RESCUE treatment and superchlorinating. In reality, it would have been better to start with Yellow Treat, then follow-up with NMP as the bottleS suggests.

    I'm glad you had success with the copper algaecide (they do work well). We tend to shy away from metal based algaecides since they have a tendency to cause staining.

    Regardless, we stand behind our products. Contact us again and we will replace the product with one of your choosing if you wish. Mention my name to who you speak with.

    -Scott Hamilton, UCC
    Scott,

    Thanks for taking time to respond... as I allude to, I was always impressed with the people I talked to at your company. I think where I got into trouble was that I really didn't understand the conversion of Sodium Bromide to Bromine and the fact that it stays in the pool. As a result, I wound up not only applying maintenance doses of NMP, but also applied three doses of Yellow Treat (also sodium bromide) each a week apart while trying to solve an algae problem. I think that by the time I was done I probably had converted my pool to a bromine pool (or at least I wasn't sure if I did) which among other things resulted in me changing a large part of my water. I think if I had had a little more understanding, I would have been a little more cautious about how I applied the products. As I stand now, I'm just left somewhat leery of sodium bromide in general even though I know friends who have used Yellow Treat with success.
    ----------------------
    20,500 gal gunite pool w/ PebbleTec and infloor cleaning system.
    Sta-Rite System 3 cartridge filter.
    Houston, TX

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek

    On this forum, we generally recommend maintaining an appropriate Free Chlorine (FC) relative to the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level (i.e. a minimum FC/CYA ratio) to prevent algae growth without the need for any supplemental algaecide or phosphate remover. That works really well for virtually everyone.

    Richard

    Bingo... Using the above method I found my sweet spot for lack of better words and I have had a easy carefree summer of crystal clear water without algaecide or phosphate remover.
    15k Diamond Brite, Aquarite SWG, 1.5hp StaRite, Hayward Star Clear 17502, AquaCal heat pump, Pentair Great White pool cleaner

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    ok so you got your west coast algae and your east coast algae,
    but here in kentucky, according to my local pool store, we have
    your chlorine resistant algae. and they said if i didn't quit keeping
    my chlorine so high (6-8 ppm), i was gonna get the dreaded
    chlorine resistant algae.
    24,000 gallon ig fiberglass pool
    1 hp hayward pump
    hayward sand filter (250 lb)
    madisonville, ky

  19. Back To Top    #19
    polyvue's Avatar
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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    Quote Originally Posted by diverman57
    ok so you got your west coast algae and your east coast algae,
    but here in kentucky, according to my local pool store, we have
    your chlorine resistant algae. and they said if i didn't quit keeping
    my chlorine so high (6-8 ppm), i was gonna get the dreaded
    chlorine resistant algae.
    Chlorine resistant algae that is spread by overuse of... chlorine.

    I've heard of that stuff. It probably originated in one of them foreign countries but when it got here it mutated, so it can grow on anything.

    Only Polysquash 6000 will kill it. (It's a hundred times better, don't you know.)

    14,555 gal in-ground 16'x29' white plaster Pool w/spa (2007); Goldline Aqua Logic AQL-PS-8 control w/Aqua Cell 15 Salt Water Chlorination (SWCG); Hayward TriStar 1HP (1.85 SF) main / 1.5HP (1.60 SF) spa pumps; Hayward Swimclear cart filter C4025, ColorLogic LED lights; Tankless SP-18-4 electric heater; Polaris 280 cleaner.
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  20. Back To Top    #20
    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Polyquat 60 vs "No More Problems" (Sodium Bromide)

    Quote Originally Posted by diverman57
    ok so you got your west coast algae and your east coast algae,
    but here in kentucky, according to my local pool store, we have
    your chlorine resistant algae. and they said if i didn't quit keeping
    my chlorine so high (6-8 ppm), i was gonna get the dreaded
    chlorine resistant algae.
    I've heard it all
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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