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Thread: ORP Sensors

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    ORP Sensors

    Split off of this topic. JasonLion

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    I am not a fan of ozone systems for outdoor swimming pools. You need to use chlorine anyway, and usually it is simpler and less expensive to just use chlorine without the ozone.

    Automation systems, like the Hayward AQ-CHEM or AutoPilot Total Control system can be very handy, but are not usually worth the extra expense. I guess it depends on how much money you have to spend and how much you like fiddling with gadgets. I have a Total Control system, and love the PH automation, but then I have the money to spend and I love gadgets. Automation, when it is working, can allow you to ignore the pool for days at a time, but it also adds complexity and many more ways for things to go wrong. Summing up, automation means more to understand and deal with, but able to go longer between times testing/adjusting the water.

    There are PH only system, but only ones designed for the commercial market. They generally cost as much as the consumer targeted PH and ORP systems. I don't know about the Hayward, but the AutoPilot can be configured to ignore the ORP sensor and still use PH automation.

    I recommend getting a salt water chlorine generator (SWG). A SWG is a nice half step towards automation and is generally well worth it.

    With fresh plaster you need to keep careful control of the PH, generally by testing daily or even twice a day, for the first month. Generally you test chlorine and PH daily and everything else weekly or less. After the first month, with a SWG and some familiarity with your pool that can often be every other day.

    For a big swim party you want to do normal water balancing and also add extra chlorine right before and right after.

    ORP sensors don't randomly "go wild". There is always an underlying problem whether it be stray voltage, excess hydrogen, etc. Sometimes it may be very difficult to identify this problem and in some cases no one seems to be able to come up with a consistent solution (ie salt systems that produce excess hydrogen), but there is always a problem.
    21' Leslies Beachland Ag Pool, 10,000 gallons, professionally installed (best money I ever spent) Hayward 16" sand filter w/Pentair two speed pump Fafco 4x20 solar heater,Aqua Trol RJ. Borates added. Hard plumbed.

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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquaman95
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    ORP sensors don't randomly "go wild". There is always an underlying problem whether it be stray voltage, excess hydrogen, etc.
    Indeed, there is always a reason. But if the pool owner is not equipped to figure out the reason then it might as well have been random from their point of view. In a commercial pool with full time staff it is reasonable to expect the pool operator to know what the possible interferences are and to be able to work around or solve what ever issues come up. But for regular consumers the odds are they have no idea how to identify or solve the problem. From a consumer point of view the ORP sensor simply "stops working" or "goes wild" or what ever you want to call it.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquaman95
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    ORP sensors don't randomly "go wild". There is always an underlying problem whether it be stray voltage, excess hydrogen, etc.
    Indeed, there is always a reason. But if the pool owner is not equipped to figure out the reason then it might as well have been random from their point of view. In a commercial pool with full time staff it is reasonable to expect the pool operator to know what the possible interferences are and to be able to work around or solve what ever issues come up. But for regular consumers the odds are they have no idea how to identify or solve the problem. From a consumer point of view the ORP sensor simply "stops working" or "goes wild" or what ever you want to call it.

    I agree. ORP control and regular consumers are a potential train wreck based on today's technology and consumer education.

    I just abhor claims of "random" failures. Didn't mean to jump on you.
    21' Leslies Beachland Ag Pool, 10,000 gallons, professionally installed (best money I ever spent) Hayward 16" sand filter w/Pentair two speed pump Fafco 4x20 solar heater,Aqua Trol RJ. Borates added. Hard plumbed.

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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    Any Pool School version for ORP any time soon guys ?
    This will be interesting.

    Is there any way a consumer can test an ORP sensor electrically to check its values or parameter is within spec with a say a regular digital multi meter with or without the help of a special solution/chemical ? I read ORP literature & it stated its like millivolts meter, its two different metals in the sensor can sense electrochemical reaction of the oxidizer on its two different metals.....like how wet cell battery is producing electricity. Is the output of the sensor directly the millivolts of the liquid measured, or is there any amplification circuit required ?

    Thanks gentlemen.
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    Quote Originally Posted by SPP
    Any Pool School version for ORP any time soon guys ?
    This will be interesting.

    Is there any way a consumer can test an ORP sensor electrically to check its values or parameter is within spec with a say a regular digital multi meter with or without the help of a special solution/chemical ? I read ORP literature & it stated its like millivolts meter, its two different metals in the sensor can sense electrochemical reaction of the oxidizer on its two different metals.....like how wet cell battery is producing electricity. Is the output of the sensor directly the millivolts of the liquid measured, or is there any amplification circuit required ?

    Thanks gentlemen.
    That's a loaded question for a number of reasons. If you search some of Chem Geek's earlier posts on the subject you will begin to see why.

    That said, the standard buffer to test an ORP probe is buffer 7 saturated with quinhydrone. Should give a value of 90 mV at 25c. Buffer 4 saturated with quinhydrone at the same temperature is +170 mV over the 7 sample. The meter used can be a simple ORP Monitor or a controller. There is an op-amp circuit in ORP meters/controllers that isn't found in a digital multi-meter.

    I don't recommend portable ORP for regular pool testing, but it can be used in fixed applications like controllers.
    21' Leslies Beachland Ag Pool, 10,000 gallons, professionally installed (best money I ever spent) Hayward 16" sand filter w/Pentair two speed pump Fafco 4x20 solar heater,Aqua Trol RJ. Borates added. Hard plumbed.

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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    Thanks Aquaman.
    I shall search again on Richard's post. I did read sometime ago, but not all.
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

    Back Up Pump & Filter on trolley, Pentair 1.5HP + Pentair Cartridge Filter, Slime Bag 1 micron Jumbo Size, downstream of Cartridge

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    Re: ORP Sensors

    There are various known quirks with ORP sensors that can cause problems in specific situations. Non-chlorine shocks can sometimes cause high ORP readings, even when chlorine levels are quite low, leaving a pool unsanitized. CYA levels above 50 can reduce the change in ORP as chlorine increases to such small values that accurate automation is impossible. Readings vary from one ORP sensor to another and no reliable calibration standard exists. Therefore, ORP readings can only be taken as a relative indication and not as an absolute number. Dissolved hydrogen gas from a SWG can lower ORP readings, sometimes masking the ORP increase from chlorine production. ORP sensors measure extremely small voltages, so stray currents in the water can cause problems. ORP is very sensitive to PH, so you need to also have PH automation or FC levels can fluctuate significantly.

    There has also been a running debate: Do ORP readings or FC readings predict proper sanitation levels more reliably? I believe that FC is a better indicator. Chem Geek discusses this further here.

    Sadly sensors that can directly read the FC level are very expensive, thousands of dollars, and thus impractical for most applications. Without a FC sensor, ORP is the next best alternative, despite it's issues.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquaman95

    I agree. ORP control and regular consumers are a potential train wreck based on today's technology and consumer education.
    I agree completely and have been saying the same for some time! I don't even like to recommend peristaltic pump dosing systems for residential consumers because the proper maintenance most likely won't be carried out.

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    Re: ORP Sensors

    Wow, if any government authority say like Germany requires 730mv ( i think most are in-door pool ) or 650mv in some other countries for commercial pool...do they shut down pool if those numbers sink down ?

    It will be quite unfair if they do.... isn't it, given that ORP can drift or read different, brand to brand under certain conditions..
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

    Back Up Pump & Filter on trolley, Pentair 1.5HP + Pentair Cartridge Filter, Slime Bag 1 micron Jumbo Size, downstream of Cartridge

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    Re: ORP Sensors

    Quote Originally Posted by SPP
    Wow, if any government authority say like Germany requires 730mv ( i think most are in-door pool ) or 650mv in some other countries for commercial pool...do they shut down pool if those numbers sink down ?

    It will be quite unfair if they do.... isn't it, given that ORP can drift or read different, brand to brand under certain conditions..
    That is EXACTLY what they do! Same as if the FC reading is too low or the CYA is too high. Pool is closed until parameters are in line. (I've worked at commercial pools so I know the drill!)

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    Re: ORP Sensors

    Looking at Richards info on how ORP sometimes behaves, if they shut down a pool due to lower ORP reading which is caused by "error", they are in bad luck hah ?

    FC reading can be made accurate with the FAS/DPD and with other whatever methods if for some reason there are interference...I mean for the commercial pool owner given he is monitoring the water every day and a few times a day, I bet his FC can be honestly accurate because he can profile well.

    CYA I have no comment, I have not read enough of the Academy database...I meant I have not understood enough..

    Wow, bad luck to commercial pool if their ORP went banana the day the health inspector come over. If I were him I will create stray current.... to increase reading....
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

    Back Up Pump & Filter on trolley, Pentair 1.5HP + Pentair Cartridge Filter, Slime Bag 1 micron Jumbo Size, downstream of Cartridge

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    Re: ORP Sensors

    Quote Originally Posted by SPP
    Looking at Richards info on how ORP sometimes behaves, if they shut down a pool due to lower ORP reading which is caused by "error", they are in bad luck hah ?

    FC reading can be made accurate with the FAS/DPD and with other whatever methods if for some reason there are interference...I mean for the commercial pool owner given he is monitoring the water every day and a few times a day, I bet his FC can be honestly accurate because he can profile well.

    CYA I have no comment, I have not read enough of the Academy database...I meant I have not understood enough..

    Wow, bad luck to commercial pool if their ORP went banana the day the health inspector come over. If I were him I will create stray current.... to increase reading....
    From my experience most CPO's (commerial pool operators) that I have come across don't really test that well and many health dept. inspectors let a lot of things pass that probably shoud NOT. This is why I always carry test strips with me when I go to a commercial pool and stay out of commercial spas, period! I've worked maintaining them and know first hand what can and does happen (such as how fecal accidents are REALLY handled! )

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    Re: ORP Sensors

    Quote Originally Posted by SPP
    Wow, if any government authority say like Germany requires 730mv ( i think most are in-door pool ) or 650mv in some other countries for commercial pool...do they shut down pool if those numbers sink down ?

    It will be quite unfair if they do.... isn't it, given that ORP can drift or read different, brand to brand under certain conditions..
    No, it's actually fair. They don't use handheld meters and they don't accept any problems.

    In other words if the pool has less than XXX mV they don't care why, they recognize it as a problem (dirty probe, bad probe, hydrogen, stray voltage, etc.) and require that it be fixed. That's my point in this thread and why I said "ORP doesn't go wild". There is a problem that is causing it that needs to be fixed.

    They are also more stringent on ORP standardization and check to make sure operators aren't just calibrating up with an ORP offset to bypass the problem. US states that have ORP requirements don't do this.
    21' Leslies Beachland Ag Pool, 10,000 gallons, professionally installed (best money I ever spent) Hayward 16" sand filter w/Pentair two speed pump Fafco 4x20 solar heater,Aqua Trol RJ. Borates added. Hard plumbed.

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    Re: ORP Sensors

    As regards Germany there may be two factors that can help them maintain an ORP of 750 in an outdoor pool. The national standard for pH is 6.5 to 7.3, averaging 7.0.

    See here under: "5. The ideal pH for any pool water is 7.4".

    http://www.ppoa.org/print_12mostcommon.htm

    Their UV index even in Munich one of the most southerly cities is only a high of 7 in June and July.

    See here:

    http://www.weather2travel.com/worldcup- ... ?id=204071

    The average sunshine hours are not that high. All of this, low pH, low UV, and low sunshine hours have an effect in making it easier to acheive an ORP of 750. A typical pool readout might look like this, to achieve this number:

    Measured pH 7.0
    Total Alkalinity (ppm CaCO3) 70
    Free Chlorine (ppm Cl2) 4.2
    Cyanuric Acid (ppm CYA) 25
    Calcium Hardness (ppm CaCO3) 1,300
    Total Dissolved Solids (ppm) 3,116
    Total Sulfate (ppm SO42-) 0
    Total Borate (ppm Boron) 0.0
    Total Ammonia (ppm Nitrogen) 0.0
    U.S. Gallons 10,000
    Temperature (oF) 84

    Total Chloride (ppm NaCl) 3004
    Carbonate Alkalinity (ppm CaCO3) 62.9
    Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) -0.05
    % HOCl (vs. Total Free Chlorine) 2.4%
    OCl- (as ppm Cl2) 0.040
    HOCl (as ppm Cl2) 0.101
    Calcite Saturation Level (CSL) 0.61
    Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) -0.21

    Any German pool operators care to comment. For info I lived in Munich for a 2 1/2 years in my early 20's, and have some relatives that lived on Tegernsee, close by in the Bavarian Alps.

    Here in Hawaii to get an ORP of 700 (725 max after 7pm) with an automatic SWG digital control unit albeit after 4 pm (except on cloudy days), with a pH of 7.5, and a UV index which goes as high as 11 in some months. The figures look like this:

    Measured pH 7.5
    Total Alkalinity (ppm CaCO3) 60
    Free Chlorine (ppm Cl2) 4.2
    Cyanuric Acid (ppm CYA) 25
    Calcium Hardness (ppm CaCO3) 650
    Total Dissolved Solids (ppm) 3,887
    Total Sulfate (ppm SO42-) 0
    Total Borate (ppm Boron) 50.0
    Total Ammonia (ppm Nitrogen) 0.0
    U.S. Gallons 10,000
    Temperature (oF) 84

    Total Chloride (ppm NaCl) 3501
    Carbonate Alkalinity (ppm CaCO3) 45.1
    Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) -0.01
    % HOCl (vs. Total Free Chlorine) 1.8%
    OCl- (as ppm Cl2) 0.097
    HOCl (as ppm Cl2) 0.077
    Calcite Saturation Level (CSL) 0.70
    Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) -0.16

    If I lowered my pH I might get their results but my eyes would sting, raising my FC would cost to much in both run time of the pump and SWG, lowering the FC produces lower ORP readings. This seems the best compromise with a run time of 5 hours. If I up my CYA, further than 25 my ORP drops, if I drop the CYA to 20 the ORP goes up a little but the SWG has to run longer and is on all the time.

    Interestingly from my observations some pools in Germany even with high ORP have algae, this might be due to much lower concentrations of FC than stated above, so ORP maybe more pH related.

    Aloha.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    Re: ORP Sensors

    My understanding is that some of the commercial/public pools in Europe don't use CYA so have very low levels of FC < 0.5 ppm. This readily achieves the ORP that they want, but it also risks the FC getting used up too quickly which can account for algae growth. The 750 mV is overkill, in my opinion, even if it were some sort of absolute standard (which it isn't, really). The disinfection by-product production rate is higher at higher "active" (hypochlorous acid) chlorine levels and also higher (for nitrogen trichloride) at lower pH (a separate and additional effect to the higher active chlorine level at lower pH).
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: ORP Sensors

    ChemGeek,

    Ran the numbers again with zero CyA, and FC at 0.5. These Germans must have some super massive (think Panzers) chlorine generating systems. The HOCl (as ppm Cl2)
    is still in the green zone so presumably safe and if maintained little or no algae, assuming a SWG system or gas injection system, or am I wrong? My wife tells me I am nearly always wrong but what do you think.

    But then again one must always remember the German national anthem, Das Deutschlandlied ("The Song of Germany", also known as Das Lied der Deutschen, "The Song of the Germans"). Whose first stanza goes "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,Über alles in der Welt". Roughly translated as "Germany, Germany above everything, Above everything in the world". So anyone who has a national anthem like this has to be crazy enough to think they have a good chance of doing it; ORP at 750 that is.

    See here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschlandlied

    Before anyone writes anything I'm half-German, my dad fought in the tank corp with Rommel and was captured by the British in North Africa after the battle of El Alamein. He liked the British so much while he was a prisoner-of-war in Scotland, he decided to settle in a England, once the war ended, and married my English mother. That is maybe why he was no good at looking after pools, he caught the British disease of testing the water once a month, instead of the German style of once an hour, or most probably less. As far as pools go I think I have German pool genes, that is why I am so neurotic about the pool.

    So my new pool anthem could be "ORP, Über alles", translated as "ORP, over everything", but I personally prefer "HOCl (as ppm Cl2), Uber alles"; versus using the British version of the song "God save our dirty pool, long live our dirty pool, God save the pool." Some may not be aware of this but the English have two other national anthems and one that might be more appropriate for their pools, or at least my sisters in the UK and that is "Land of Hope and Glory", hope being the operative word. The other national anthem which is rarely used is "Jerusalem". Some members of the British Parliament have proposed taking out the word God from the national anthem, I am not sure who would save their pools if they did that. How the world has changed, maybe it would be the Germans!

    The other cultural consideration is that Europeans do not bathe as often as persons living in the US so having a high ORP of 750 might be beneficial to other swimmers in the pool in that it helps to avoid cross infection. Although strangely, generally speaking, Germans bathe much more often than many other Europeans. When I was young in England bathing twice a week was considered a lot and a luxury, now I cannot ride a London Transport bus in the summer as the smell overwhelms me, so I have changed greatly, never noticing it when I was young. Having lived in the US for 30 years I often bathe twice a day, once in the morning, and once in the evening after swimming.

    But heck with the price of electricty and gas we may have to go to the European model of once or twice a week showers or baths and an ORP at 750 in our pools. It would also be "Green" or "Grey" depending on your point-of-view.

    One thing got me concerned and that was your mention of nitrogen trichloride (trichloramine), based on this I would be vary wary of sending young children to an indoor pool, especially one that does not have good modern ventilation, or is public. See here:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pool_chlorine_hypothesis

    I told one of my daughters about this as it relates to young children. She told me that when she was 7 years old, now 24, and a junior lifeguard she was in charge of measuring the pool chemical levels, on an hourly basis, at the local public pool where she volunteered. A 7 year old for goodness sake, and that is why she stated she would never let her children in a public pool, period.

    I told her maybe an "Über alles" pool may be OK.

    Here are the numbers:

    Measured pH 7.0
    Total Alkalinity (ppm CaCO3) 60
    Free Chlorine (ppm Cl2) 0.5
    Cyanuric Acid (ppm CYA) 0
    Calcium Hardness (ppm CaCO3) 1,500
    Total Dissolved Solids (ppm) 3,100
    Total Sulfate (ppm SO42-) 0
    Total Borate (ppm Boron) 0.0
    Total Ammonia (ppm Nitrogen) 0.0
    U.S. Gallons 10,000
    Temperature (oF) 84

    Total Chloride (ppm NaCl) 3029
    Carbonate Alkalinity (ppm CaCO3) 59.9
    Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) -0.01
    % HOCl (vs. Total Free Chlorine) 71.5%
    OCl- (as ppm Cl2) 0.143
    HOCl (as ppm Cl2) 0.357
    Calcite Saturation Level (CSL) 0.66
    Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) -0.18

    Aloha.
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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    Re: ORP Sensors

    This should go to The Deep End so I am responding here.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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