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Thread: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

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    CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    Hello All,

    Our new inground pool is due to be finsihed this week (just waiting on plaster), and I have been doing a lot of research to make sure I properly maintain the swimming pool for comfortable year-round swimming.

    I am interested in automating as much of the process as possible. The pool has an ozone sanitizer with a cartridge filitration system and a Goldline/hayward PS8 controller.

    I noticed they sell an add-on system for maintaining ORP and PH. the AQ-CHEM and AQ-CHEM2. Does anyone have any experience with this product or can the recomend a similar system for automating the balancing of my swimming pool water?

    Also, I understand that with the Ozonator I still need a small residual amount of chlorine in the water, is it better to automate this process as well, or will testing the water and adding the neccessary amount of chlorine peridoically be suficient? How frequently should I check my chemical levels?

    Regards,

    Bryan
    18K Gallon In Ground Gunite Pool, Quartz/Plaster Finish, 8' Spa with Spillover, 1 Grotto/Waterfall, Hayward/Goldline PS8 controller, 1.5 HP Two Speed Pump, 1HP Booster Pump for Grotto/Waterfall, Cartridge Filter,400K BTU Nat Gas Heater, Ozonator,3 Multi-Color LED Lights (Spa, Grotto, Pool).

    Ozonator is not functioing, evaluating my options, either fix it or get a new one or drop it completely.

  2. Back To Top    #2

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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    The ozone should be operational whenever the pump is running. It should not be on a timer, as there is no ozone residual in the water.

    I cannot comment on the Hayward system...it's fairly new in the market.
    They operate using CO2 for the pH control.

    AutoPilot has the Total Control system that has been out for 3 years. We use Muriatic Acid for the pH control.

    While ORP controllers have their inherent problems, it's not a problem with all applications. Unfortunately, Jasonlion has such a situation.

    Hayward and AutoPilot both use CAT controller probes for the ORP and pH sensing. They are very reliable.

    The option is to use a commercial ORP/pH controller with any salt system. But, the cost of such a system is quite a bit more.

    I would suggest that unless you have heavy bather loads in your pool or use your spa (as part of a pool spa combo) quite frequently, you really can do without the ORP automation. The Salt system is able to keep up with just the manual control output setting.
    For the pH control, you can use a pH automation controller, or a chemical feed pump to dose acid.

    Hope this helps.
    Sean Assam - Sean@teamhorner.com
    National Accounts and Commercial Products Manager
    AquaCal Heat Pumps www.aquacal.com
    AutoPilot Salt Chlorine Generators www.autopilot.com

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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    I was at a hayward class over the winter and they told us about that controller. It looks very promising. The PS-8 is a very nice automation system. You can also use muratic acid with a peristalitic pump with that system. I would look into the cost of it, then decide. If you have the money I would go for it.
    Matthew
    Involved in the pool and spa industry
    Pittsburgh, PA

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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    I have heard people ultmately end up using their pool/spa signifcantly less frequently then thaey imagine they will prior to getting it, however it is our intention for the pool and spa to both have alsmost daily use both as part of my exercise/workout program and has therapy for my wife's back. Not sure how daily use by 2 to 4 swimmers counts as Bather Load (light, moderate, heavy).

    I suppose with the minimal amount of chlorine required I don't really need the ORP automation part of the equation, are there any good stand-alone systems just for the PH. The Hayword system was designed specifically to work in conjunction with their ORP system.

    Also, as an unrelated question, and Maybe in the wrong place, but I have 50+ people (15 to 20 families) who have RSVP'ed for my pool warming party in a couple of weeks, any suggestions for quickly/rapidly balancing the water before hand, and for either precautionary methods to take in advance of that large bather load, or immediately thereafter.

    All the help is greatly appreciated.

    Thanks

    Bryan
    18K Gallon In Ground Gunite Pool, Quartz/Plaster Finish, 8' Spa with Spillover, 1 Grotto/Waterfall, Hayward/Goldline PS8 controller, 1.5 HP Two Speed Pump, 1HP Booster Pump for Grotto/Waterfall, Cartridge Filter,400K BTU Nat Gas Heater, Ozonator,3 Multi-Color LED Lights (Spa, Grotto, Pool).

    Ozonator is not functioing, evaluating my options, either fix it or get a new one or drop it completely.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    I am not a fan of ozone systems for outdoor swimming pools. You need to use chlorine anyway, and usually it is simpler and less expensive to just use chlorine without the ozone.

    Automation systems, like the Hayward AQ-CHEM or AutoPilot Total Control system can be very handy, but are not usually worth the extra expense. I guess it depends on how much money you have to spend and how much you like fiddling with gadgets. I have a Total Control system, and love the PH automation, but then I have the money to spend and I love gadgets. Automation, when it is working, can allow you to ignore the pool for days at a time, but it also adds complexity and many more ways for things to go wrong. Summing up, automation means more to understand and deal with, but able to go longer between times testing/adjusting the water.

    There are PH only system, but only ones designed for the commercial market. They generally cost as much as the consumer targeted PH and ORP systems. I don't know about the Hayward, but the AutoPilot can be configured to ignore the ORP sensor and still use PH automation.

    I recommend getting a salt water chlorine generator (SWG). A SWG is a nice half step towards automation and is generally well worth it.

    With fresh plaster you need to keep careful control of the PH, generally by testing daily or even twice a day, for the first month. Generally you test chlorine and PH daily and everything else weekly or less. After the first month, with a SWG and some familiarity with your pool that can often be every other day.

    For a big swim party you want to do normal water balancing and also add extra chlorine right before and right after.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    Thanks for the information. Just curious why don't you like ozone systems? One of the reasons I chose ozone was because we had an ozone spa growing up and I loved the "feel" of it much better tha my friends spas that were all chlorine. We did occasionally shock it, and kept a resiual chlorine level in it, but I much prefferred the lower residual chlorine level. Of course from what I've been learning these days about pool water chemistry the different "feel" could have been many factors besides the ozone.

    I opted against a salt system for a variety of reasons, mainly due to concerns over corrsoion/wear and tear on the patio furniture and the flagstone, and then the residual chlorine level being (while still fairly low) considerably higher than the recomended level with the ozonator.

    Has anyon out there used an ozone system in conjunction with a salt water chlorine generator? Is it worth the expense of the SWG and then having to maintain Salt?

    We'll have about two weeks from pool start-up until the party, is this enough time to get everything balanced, or should I push my party back another weekend? (I already moved it once due to rain delays on the decking and pool plaster).

    Thanks again for all the comments/advice.

    Bryan
    18K Gallon In Ground Gunite Pool, Quartz/Plaster Finish, 8' Spa with Spillover, 1 Grotto/Waterfall, Hayward/Goldline PS8 controller, 1.5 HP Two Speed Pump, 1HP Booster Pump for Grotto/Waterfall, Cartridge Filter,400K BTU Nat Gas Heater, Ozonator,3 Multi-Color LED Lights (Spa, Grotto, Pool).

    Ozonator is not functioing, evaluating my options, either fix it or get a new one or drop it completely.

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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    I dont see why you would want to ignore the ORP sensor? That is what I would buy the system for. Just to explain an ORP sensor, they measure the amount of oxidation taking place in the water. At 650 milivolts nothing can live in your water. It will do 2 things for you, save your salt cell from over use and ensure that your chlorine generation is increased as chlorine demand does. There will be no tweaking of output percents. It should also eliminate the need for super chlorination.
    If I was going to go without one I would probobly hold off on the PH ajustment upgrade.
    Matthew
    Involved in the pool and spa industry
    Pittsburgh, PA

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    With proper maintenance, PH sensors work well. It is possible to balance your water so the PH is fairly stable, but that takes work. PH automation reduces the work to simply checking to be sure the acid/CO2 tank isn't empty.

    On the other hand, ORP sensors can respond to things other than the chlorine level, giving inconsistent results. In many pools ORP works just fine but in some pools it doesn't work at all and in others it works most of the time but "goes wild" now and then. The simpler percentage based system used by almost all SWGs is quite automatic and trouble free in an outdoor pool. Having ORP adds very little extra value over an SWG percentage based system outdoors. Indoors is a whole different story, and ORP becomes much more valuable.

    Ozone is valuable in a spa where the organic contamination level per gallon is far higher. Chlorine is less stable at spa temperatures. Spas also turn over the water much more quickly, so any given bit of water goes through the ozone system much more frequently.

    In a pool, it can be days before any given bit of water goes through the ozone system, making the residual chlorine level much more critical. In practice in an outdoor pool the ozone system adds very little value, it simply becomes an added expense at best and a potential source of problems.

    Most people find SWGs to be very simple to operate. The initial expense is offset by reduced spending on chlorine. A SWG noticeably reduces the amount of daily work you need to do. Salt levels normally only need to be adjusted once per season, sometimes twice, and that is very simple to do. PH drift can sometimes be a problem, but that can be minimized with proper water balancing. Combining a SWG and ozone is no better or worse than combining ozone with other forms of chlorine.

    It is quite possible to have a pool party two weeks after opening, assuming opening happens on time. You will need to work on your water balancing during those two weeks, but that is something you should be doing anyway.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    Bryan,

    I just got my 2gr per hour ozone system on line for the past two weeks. Fresh water pool. Outdoor but shaded.
    My water temp is 28*C ( 84 *F something ?? )

    With so much water in a pool compared to spa, you must calculate what oxidation benefits you will be getting from your ozone generator, which is going much less in a pool. Unless your ozone system is a commercial unit in every sense including the pool design, waterflow and etc.... oriented towards ozone, you may not get what you think you will get out of the ozone if your PB is giving you a residential unit model and as add on.

    As for me, I use ozone as supplement, not main oxidation power. I am still keeping 1.5 FC at CYA 25PPM & PH 7.6
    In the $$ sense whether or not its worth the money, its a personal thing. Preference can not be measured by $$.

    As Jason pointed out and I would like to add ozone due to short half life of approx 12 minutes at 30*Celcius STILL work quite well in spa with powerful water turnover. For that to happen in a pool to the same effective level of say 25K gallons its going to be expensive and come with a lot of supporting equipment. I was researching ozone quite deep and Germany latest DIN standard 19643 is a good reference since they been using it much longer than US. I don't have their paper though, but I knew the flowchart. It's complex, but that's the way it is to reap full benefits of ozone. Their expected 730Mv ORP sounds to me like a tough standard. FC is at 0.3 to 0.6 is still maintained. If I am correct the material I read is more for indoor pool.

    For me a personal residential pool is a toy, an adult toy or a family toy. My pool is semi commercial for dive training but very low diver load. So I consider it half a toy because my kids love it and I love to do pool party. Just like my boat, its an adult toy too but 100% a toy. I do not need to justify the amount of money I spent to the extend as if it is an investment. It is already a bad investment to begin with..

    If you love your pool, spend any amount you like and what you can afford under "toy" category and you shall be happy.
    As long as you can keep it sanitized well and sparkling clear...when you take a dip in it and smile and your children are laughing, that's when all the $$ spent is "worth" it.

    Of course don't buy things that do not work, we will look like a fool this way but ozone done right is not one of them.

    Do I like my ozone unit, yes...I got better water clarity, proven.
    Does it help sanitation level, I honestly don't know because I do not do bacteria count on my water before and after ozone installation. Do residential pool owners test their bacteria level monthly ?

    Estimating that my ozone strength is only 0.3ppm at injector tip for every liter of water that pass thru it ( assuming my calculation is acccurate ) and my slow 12 hours pool water turnover, one thing I cam certain I am only assisting the chlorine to a very mild extend in terms of overall oxidation. Ok, 0.3ppm is potent for ozone towards some baddies, but I doubt that 0.3ppm has contact time longer than 7-10 secods. Again I am negative assuming.

    Ozone or no ozone, you will still need the chlorine/bromine regardless it is automated or manual feed. 12 minutes half life of ozone at 30*C is like having no residual at all.

    If your pool ozone system has a 2-3 minute contactor tank and all the other ozone related toys, I want to hear about it.

    Have fun with your pool...
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

    Back Up Pump & Filter on trolley, Pentair 1.5HP + Pentair Cartridge Filter, Slime Bag 1 micron Jumbo Size, downstream of Cartridge

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    Re: CO2 System for controlling PH, GOLDLINE/Hayword PS8

    Quote Originally Posted by MEvan
    I dont see why you would want to ignore the ORP sensor? That is what I would buy the system for. Just to explain an ORP sensor, they measure the amount of oxidation taking place in the water. At 650 milivolts nothing can live in your water. It will do 2 things for you, save your salt cell from over use and ensure that your chlorine generation is increased as chlorine demand does. There will be no tweaking of output percents. It should also eliminate the need for super chlorination.
    If I was going to go without one I would probobly hold off on the PH ajustment upgrade.
    While I am a big fan of ORP control, one must be very careful with blanket statements like this.

    It is very true that at 650 mV most pathogens will be killed quickly but there are three problems. The first is that there has been no testing to determine what ORP level is needed to kill cryptosporidium and giardia and how long it takes. The second problem with 650 as a blanket rule is that the 650 testing was done many years ago by Dr. Ebba Lund. At the time ORP sensors used primarily calomel reference instead of silver/silver chloride. Those sensors tended to read about 50 mV higher than today's silver/silver chloride sensors. So there is a case that the number should actually be 700 and that is supported by the WHO. Third, all ORP sensors are not consistent. Variances of +/- 30 mv are very common even amongst sensors from the same manufacturers and they will give off lower readings as the platinum gets dirty or the reference starts to clog.

    Further discussion of ORP controllers has been moved to this topic. JasonLion
    21' Leslies Beachland Ag Pool, 10,000 gallons, professionally installed (best money I ever spent) Hayward 16" sand filter w/Pentair two speed pump Fafco 4x20 solar heater,Aqua Trol RJ. Borates added. Hard plumbed.

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