new Endless Pool start-up

[3dogowner]

Hi
Just found the TFP forums, Pool School and the PoolMath page - Fantastically useful site; exactly what the internet should be. History: have owned an Altamar hot tub (Baquacil just converted to Chlorine after flush and dump) for 10+ years, so some familiarity with stuff - but loving this website!

I just started up my brand new Original Endless Pool 8'x 14' x 3'9"" five days ago (10/9/2014). Options include lights only, rear bench and steps (no jets as have separate Altamar spa) and automatic cover, which is definitely opaque. Pool is outdoors, above ground on concrete pad with triple insulation in walls. Although open to the sky, there is no sunshine to worry about from Sept through May here in Seattle. The average temp in December is 40F, rarely light freeze in my neighborhood. 4.2 kV heater is set at 88F. Circulating pump on 24x7.

Seattle city tap water with TA of 30, CH of 30, pH of ~7.5 and no measurable FC by the Taylor K 1005 sent out with the new pool.

Currently pool water FC is at 1, TC at 1, thus CC at 0. I've purchased the extra reagents to do FAS-DPD, to arrive in 2 days from Amazon.

I'm aiming for a CYA level of 30 ppm over the next week or so, still not measurable from the initial 1# bag of Multi Clear Shock Clear Result sent by EP, which is only 45 % by weight dichlor.....I purchased dry CYA via Amazon and am adding the presumed missing amount in 2-3 batches (sock tied to exterior of skimmer) over the next 2 weeks so that I don't overshoot (don't want to dump water out). Without bright sunshine over my shoulder (it is mid-October in Seattle), can I really do a CYA assay correctly? anyone? The MCS Clear Result likely added ~????ppm, but not measurable via Taylor's CYA assay. And does anyone know how to convert 7.2 oz weight (16 oz * 45%) into oz volume for dichlor? As a cook, I know that ounce for ounce, flour weight does NOT equal volume. Am I missing something in PoolMath?

TA is at 100 ppm (hit the mark perfectly first time with PoolMath, thank you!). Baking soda in big bag from Costco.

pH has wandered slowly up from 7.2-7.5 now to 7.5-7.8, closer to 7.8 color than 7.5 (yes, cheapo kit).

Although I see that vinyl pools don't need calcium, I set up mine with a calcium hardness level of 130-140 ppm, maybe to preserve the heater? Endless recommends 180 ppm, so my 130-140 ppm is a compromise. Also purchased more from Amazon. 25#s, cheap, cheap, cheap. Way too much. Likely won't need it for a year when I might change out the water. Maybe. Anybody need some in the Seattle area?

PM predicts I will need 6 cups of 8.5% bleach (cheap at Costco) to shock to 12 ppm if CYA at 30 and 2-3 ounces (that magical "1/4" cup) for a 0.6-0.8 ppm bump after daily use by 2 adults learning to swim like kids again. So total bleach usage, maybe a gallon every 2 weeks. Maybe. If I shock weekly. Which I likely won't need to do... If the four legged ones get in (I'll water rinse those hairy bums first and dremelled toenails a must!), I'll add an additional 1/4 cup bleach at closing time. From all the posts, I'll add a nylon stocking over that filter cartridge first....

Can anyone think of anything else I should be doing, adding, buying as a fun toy - have the kickboard, the between the leg squeezee thingy, the goggles, and the propane heater for the deck.

Need opinions on if a vacuum is worth it for a pool with such a small footprint and on waterproof music players (in the ear kind, not on the deck kind).

 

[soundgardeners]

Hi 3dogowner, I won't be able to help you the chemical stuff, as we just got our swim spa (Arctic Wolverine) last week. I got the test kit this week, and have been trying to find out the happy mediums and how to get them that way! I forgot to put the nylons around the cartridge - need to do that soon enough.

We're also learning about the accessories, since this is not the typical swimming pool. When we had gone to the Endless Pools showroom in PA, they had really pushed scuba mask and snorkel - which makes a lot of sense. We got some TYR resistance boards - instead of weights, they're like small kickboards with a handle in the middle, to do arm exercises.

Because of the particular location of our swim spa (under a river birch, intentionally I must add) we got a Pentair Spa Wand. It's a manual suction pump vacuum that has been pretty helpful. It sucks the water and dirt from the bottom of the spa out and the dirt gets stuck in the filter while the water goes back out. About $60, it seems pretty helpful. There are battery powered vacuums too, I just think for a very small pool (our footprints are about the same), why not just get the extra arm exercise!

Because these kinds of pools get used year round, I've been paying attention to accessories that people with hot tubs and spas have. Next purchase - a towel warmer, which I think will be fantastic when the weather gets a little chillier!

Have fun with your pool!

 

[chem geek]

Welcome to TFP!

Yes, you can still do the CYA test without sunlight since strong indirect light is what is needed and you get that on a cloudy day (unless it's dark stormy cloudy). One pound of 45% Dichlor in 3150 gallons would be 9.5 ppm FC and 8.6 ppm CYA. That small amount of CYA won't show up in the test where in the Taylor K-2006 you purchased it only measures down to 30 ppm (if you had purchased the TFTestkits TF-100 instead you would have been able to measure down to 20 ppm and had a more logical amount of other reagents). The pure CYA that you added takes time to dissolve. It dissolves fastest if exposed to water flow and even then takes many hours. If you just added the CYA into the skimmer to get caught in the filter, it may take up to a week for the CYA to fully dissolve so don't clean the filter before then.

PoolMath gives you both the weight and the volume. In the case of Dichlor, they are essentially the same because the density of Dichlor dihydrate is roughly the same as that of water. For water density at 1 g/ml then 1 ounce weight would be 1.04 fluid ounces so just call them roughly the same.

As for TA, if you find that the pH tends to rise over time, I'd target a lower TA such as 80 ppm. Why did you choose 100 ppm? In the "Suggested Goal Levels" of PoolMath you should set the "Use suggested goal levels from:" to be "TroubleFreePool.com". I think you had it set to "Traditional Pool" so saw the 80 to 120 ppm range and thought you were good, but a higher TA will tend to have the pH rise more quickly over time due to carbon dioxide outgassing and it looks like you are already seeing that.

Preventing the pH from getting low will help prevent metal corrosion in the heater. The CH will not do much for that and if you get it too high along with other parameters such that the saturation index is higher, then at the heater which is 30ºF hotter in temperature scaling can occur and that can be far worse in damaging the heater from overheating as heat does not conduct well through scale.

Just as with a pool, you should not need to shock and instead would just maintain a chlorine level. The main difference is that with the small water volume the pool acts more like a spa where the bather load becomes more significant. In addition to whatever chlorine demand you have from loss from sunlight and temperature, say 2 ppm FC per day which is 9 fluid ounces of 8.25% bleach daily, every person-hour in the pool if it's cooler than a spa (80-88 range) will require roughly 1-1/2 fluid ounces of 8.25% bleach. So your 2 ppm FC per day will likely dominate, but if you have multiple people in the pool for a while you may notice a higher chlorine demand.

 

[3dogowner]

Thank you chem geek,

I've already supplemented the test that Endless Pool sends out (Taylor K-1005) with their new pools. Can the CYA test to 20ppm be done with stuff in the K-1005 test? I have extra CYA reagent already. Does the TF-100 use different proportions (7+7ml) or different size black dot cylinder?
I had figured the 8.6ppm on that starter bag as well - thanks for confirming it for me and the info that I can assume 1:1 ratio.
I will splash out some water in the next few weeks and drop the TA and calcium by replacing with my tap water which is Seattle is TA=30 and CH=30.
I've just jumped out of the pool - earlier this am FC 3, CC 0, now after 30 min swim and then 30 min play time with 3 dogs, FC is 1.5 and CC 0-0.5; I will add 2 oz per living being and see where that 8 oz takes the numbers.

BTW, a single nylon "footie" fits easily over the small 25 sq ft cartridge used in the Endless Pool - now let's see where that hair ends up.

 

[chem geek]

The TF-100 and the tube that can measure 20 ppm CYA use 15+15 ml so a larger amount of volume though still 1:1 in proportion. The Taylor K-1005 does not have a FAS-DPD test so you can't measure FC and CC accurately with that test, especially not higher FC levels. You should probably just get the TF-100 so you have everything, but you could just buy the FAS/DPD Chlorine & CC's test and the CYA (Cyanuric Acid) Test since you already have the proper pH, TA, and CH tests.