rebar for stamped concrete deck ... or not?

[staycation]

My pool builder says, I don't need rebar webbing for the stamped concrete deck.
Should I push him on this issue and insist on rebar?
I am willing to pay extra, if this is a big deal.
Advice please.
thanks.

 

[brian7270]

Welded wire fabric is what you are after. And yes, I would recommend it strongly. The only thing that maybe does not need it depending on the soils in your area is sidewalks. But large areas definitely need it as concrete cannot act in tension and the wwf allows the contract to act in tension and prevent cracking.

Brian

 

[brianspool]

What the other Brian said. And, make sure they bond it to the pool bonding wire. 8)

 

[Riles_J]

I'm sure this what Brian meant, but just to clarify, the welded wire fabric won't really assist the concrete in a tension situation, as concrete will crack in this scenario no matter what. The steel will help keep any such cracks tight and keep them from opening up and deteriorating. As has been said, I would recommend the steel.

Riles

 

[Belldiver]

Yes, press him for rebar. And make sure he bridges it. Rebar and wire mesh do no good if they are in the sand UNDER the concrete. Bridging is small blocks or metal ladders that hold the rebar up into the middle of the slab. Usually some old brick pieces. Your concrete will still crack (likely), but the rebar will keep the cracks from spreading.

 

[brian7270]

I'm sure this what Brian meant, but just to clarify, the welded wire fabric won't really assist the concrete in a tension situation, as concrete will crack in this scenario no matter what. The steel will help keep any such cracks tight and keep them from opening up and deteriorating. As has been said, I would recommend the steel.

Riles

Concrete is a wonderful product in that it takes high compressive strength but will break with very little tension loads applied. We do not purposely put the concrete in a tension situation but its a natural byproduct of being used in construction. Flatwork is typically in compression at the top and in tension at the bottom depending on what's going on with the soils it can reverse with one load becoming more predominant than the other. The steel allows the concrete to handle much higher tension loads per square inch than the concrete would without the steel. In case my geek language does not give it away I am a structural engineer.

And by the way wwf will not keep flatwork from cracking if the soils are poor below (but it will help). The key to a good patio or deck long term is that the soils are properly compacted with no organic materials. In this regard, your contractor is correct.

Brian

 

[brian7270]

Yes, press him for rebar. And make sure he bridges it. Rebar and wire mesh do no good if they are in the sand UNDER the concrete. Bridging is small blocks or metal ladders that hold the rebar up into the middle of the slab. Usually some old brick pieces. Your concrete will still crack (likely), but the rebar will keep the cracks from spreading.

And this is very important by the way. The most common lazy thing I see contractors do is lay the wwf smack on the ground and pour the concrete. This does nothing.

Brian

 

[JasonLion]

Some concrete has fibers already in the mix that eliminate the structural need for wire mesh. But the deck must still be bonded within a couple of feet of the pool, and the simplest way to do that is with wire mesh (or rebar). Sometimes you see the wire mesh only right around the pool and not elsewhere. In those cases they are using the mesh for bonding and are using concrete with fibers in it. When the mesh is only being used for bonding it is not important to bridge it.

Without the fibers you need mesh everywhere and it must be bridged.

 

[PoolOwnerNumber9]

I would definitely recommend rebar and wire mesh tied together and properly raised to be in the concrete, not under it. I would also recommend that you request extra thickness (ask how thick in inches) and an extra high strength concrete (ask about the psi.).

Also, make sure that the rebar and the mesh are bonded to the pool bonding in several places. The bonding is critical for electrical concerns. Make sure that there are also adequate expansion joints that look good with the overall design of the architecture. Make sure that the slope will be adequate. Stamped concrete tends to not drain as well due to the uneven surface. Be sure to address drainage. Where will the water go that is splashed out and from rain?

I would also recommend that you consider going wider than normal to give yourself more room for deck furniture. Make sure that the expansion joints around the perimeter of the coping are filled in with proper caulking to a depth of at least 2 inches. Most builders skimp on the caulking and only put a superficial amount in. As others have noted, be sure to compact the soil.

My recommendations are very conservative, but designed to give you maximum long term decking with very low risk of problems.

 

[staycation]

thanks for recommendations.
Is rebar or wire mesh standard in the industry?
I signed the contract and now the guy turns around and says that I'll hav to pay for the rebar.
I really liked the guy but now I am starting to wonder ....

 

[Riles_J]

Unfortunately it is not "standard" practice and if your contractor did not quote you rebar there will likely be an added cost. There are lots of applications where un-reinforced concrete is adequate. I personally wouldn't consider a pool deck to be one of those. Good luck!

Riles

 

[brian7270]

thanks for recommendations.
Is rebar or wire mesh standard in the industry?
I signed the contract and now the guy turns around and says that I'll hav to pay for the rebar.
I really liked the guy but now I am starting to wonder ....

WWF is fairly standard for flatwork. Rebar is an upgrade in most locations but fairly standard where I am in Texas due to moving soils. It might be time to get some more quotes. I had a heck of a time finding reliable people for my pool renovation. I went through about six companies before I found a guy I trusted.

Brian

 

[PoolOwnerNumber9]

If you are uncomfortable with any business, or don't trust them, you should not work with them. You can get other proposals and decide if it's worth canceling your contract with the original contractor.
I would recommend that you ask that any proposal/contract include the following:
01) Diameter and spacing of the rebar.
02) That wire mesh will be used.
03) The thickness of the concrete.
04) The rated strength of the concrete.
05) The bonding plan for the rebar and mesh.
06) A scale drawing of the proposed concrete, including the expansion joints.
07) The proposed slope of the deck.
08) The drainage plan.
09) Who will be responsible for the caulking around the perimeter of the coping.
10) What the warranty will be.
11) The color of the stamped concrete.
12) Whether the contractor will include any sealing of the concrete.

 

[duraleigh]

Wire and rebar in the same pour is like wearing a belt and suspenders. This is a pool deck, not an interstate bridge.

 

[PoolOwnerNumber9]

It's like anything else; it depends on your budget. Some people buy a very low cost economy car, and are perfectly happy; while others want the design, engineering and dependability of a higher end model. I like to engineer in a better-than-average safety factor for performance, longevity and so forth. In my opinion, most concrete work is under engineered and ends up having preventable problems.

 

[pjpool]

We hired an independant contractor to do our stamped deck...about 1800 sq. ft. worth. He is the type of guy that insists if his name is associated w/ job, it will be done correctly. In our area of the country, we have to deal w/ several freeze & thaw cycles every winter, so proper base preparation is a must. Our contractor brought in about 8 yards of sub base material and compacted it daily over a week. The only way he will bid on a job is the following:

-minimum 4 inch deck (most areas 5 inch plus)
-5000 psi concrete minimum
-fiber reinforcement (added manually to delivery truck)
-wire mesh

If customer tries to cut corners on the above, he will not take the job. He was also competitive with other contractors who did/would not include the items above. For us, so far so good. We have been through a year plus without any problems.

To echo poolowner9, bigger is definety better. We spend as much time on the deck as we do in the pool. If you plan to do any entertaining, this is definetely a consideration. I have met numerous pool owners who wish their pool deck was larger for just that reason.

 

[cobra46]

Staycation,

Did you end up signing with the guy I told you about?

It is common in our area to use wire mesh in pool decks. Don't worry about the bonding issue. By code they have to use rebar on one foot grid three feet out from the waters edge and you won't pass inspection until this is done. Don't hire a concrete guy who doesn't know this already. This grid must be electrically bonded to the pool steel. This requirement is a safety issue that helps ensure that the pool water and pool deck are at the same voltage if something goes wrong.

Any amount of rebar or wire mesh will not prevent cracks it will only help keep the crack from separating too much. Proper compaction is the key to minimizing cracks. Proper control joint placement is the key to getting the concrete to crack where you can't see it.

Are you doing a cantilever deck or are you going to have some kind of coping?

 

[staycation]

Cobra46:
I ended up giving up the home-owner builder route and signed a contract with a local pool builder.
I am going to have flagstone coping.
Thanks for the info, everyone.

 

[cobra46]

Who did you sign with? I play ice hockey with one of the local builders.