Water Converted - Now Green (Overnight)

[MrFr33z3]

My apologies for the "monster post" in advance, and for creating a useless post about this elsewhere. I'm attempting to do this the right way in order to gain some help in my current situation. I have a Taylor K-2005 kit on order as of yesterday morning, so I'm afraid I can't give readings that may further assist in this. I'll go to the pool shop and post back what I find and what they instruct me to do...

I recently converted to chlorine from Baquacil, primarily for cost reasons, but there are other reasons that ultimately pushed me toward the conversion. I've had sparkling clear water for months on Baquacil, but it was costing me about $80-100 a month, and from my calculations, it was more than likely going to stay that way. This was not acceptable for me.

I began the conversion by partially letting my water "go" in order to lose the remaining Baquacil sanitizer/algistat, while keeping the oxidizer levels in the green. Once the stuff was completely gone, I began adding chlorine... The water was still crystal clear at this point, and we continued to use the pool. I have an appropriate level of CYA in there now, but was initially unable to keep any liquid chlorine in the pool - even overnight. I had added the equivalent, per the pool store's recommendation, of 7 gallons of liquid chlorine total in a 4 day span between last Tuesday and Friday. The chlorine levels still registered as nil the following mornings.

Friday evening, I decided to listen to a different pool place that instructed me to throw two 1lb. bags of Cal-Hypo in there (I have a case of 24 of them that I picked up for half the price), and the water turned a brownish-green within minutes. Still, no chlorine registered when tested the following morning! And, the pool is now a consistent greenish tint... a far cry from the crystal clear water my family and I have fallen in love with. Yesterday evening, I threw in another "bucket" of CYA and another two 1lb. bags of Cal-Hypo and this morning I finally am able to read that there's a "good level" of chlorine in there using test strips. The only method I have to test at the house at the moment. The water, however, is still green. I can't seem to be able to get it clear by shocking it. Each time I had the pool tested, last week, the pH and alki levels were okay, and the CYA levels, though dropping each time tested, were still "acceptable". It's like something else was using up the chlorine I'd throw in there overnight. Due to the amount of chlorine I've thrown in there now, my pH levels appear to be rather low using the test strips, but I'll know for certain after returning from the pool store.

One thing that might be worth mentioning is that I also have a "Floatron" ionization device floating in there that's been in there for a few weeks now. The copper/silver ions are supposed to control bacteria and algae, I believe. Every time I test the water with the provided kit, the copper levels read *very* low. About 0.5 ppm, but it's really hard to tell using their kit. I've taken it out of the water as of yesterday morning in order to remove it from the equation altogether.

At this point, my wife and I are upset we went this route, since the water was already crystal clear, and I'm spending more than I thought on this process in order to kick things off. I still feel like I'm headed in the right direction though, and there's really no going back now. FYI - We're in the Central Florida area, and have been getting the typical mini-tropical storms every day/every other day. My pool is also in direct sunlight all day and has been consistently around 88 degrees or so.

My questions are:

- How do I get the water clear now?
- Is this stuff green algae?
- Will the Taylor kit even be able to shed any light on what this stuff is?
- I'm sure I haven't come close to hitting the mark, but what am I doing wrong here?

Here are photos of the process, and before/after shots - notice the difference in the hue...

Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide.

 

[MrFr33z3]

Just returned from the pool store. My readings are:

FC: 0.0 ppm
pH: 7.5
TA: 150 ppm
Calcium Hardness: 260 ppm
Stabilizer: 70 ppm
Total Dissolved Solids: 1,000 ppm

Looks like my chlorine is gone *again*. They recommended that I add another "jug" (I believe they mean the 2.5 Gal. lenders) and clean the filter really well (I did this yesterday). I believe it is around $7.00 per 2.5 Gal there. Is that high? I've already added about 7 gallons of the stuff! They also recommended adding 2.2 quarts of Muriatic Acid.

Since I've been adding CYA and trying to get those levels normalized, I haven't done the Baquacil filter cleaner dip yet. I was told it would be okay to use that, even though I've already converted to chlorine, is this true? I plan on doing it this evening. It's a tall filter, so I'd have to dip one end for 6 hours at a time in a large 5 gallon bucket.

The gal there mentioned that most of the time you want to replace the filter if you do *any* kind of conversion. I'm beginning to agree, but we'll see how the acid dip goes, I suppose.

Any comments on any of this?

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Have you read any of the articles in Pool School, specifically on conversion? Did you replace your filter cartridge after your conversion? A dip is not going to do it, IMHO. Replacement is a sure thing. A new cartridge, properly cared for, will last you several years, so tho it's an initial expense it is worth it in the long run.

With a CYA of 70, you need enough chlorine to hold a free chlorine level of 5 at the minimum, at all times, a better target being 7 or 8 ppm. It's going to take ALOT of chlorine to reach the point of being able to hold it. I suspect you have algae and it's consuming the chlorine as soon as you put it in, because you aren't putting in enough to kill it, and it grows back faster than you are killing it, because you are coming up short on the amount of chlorine. According to the Pool Calculator you need to add 3 gallons plus 2 cups of 12.5% chlorine to raise your FC to shock level. You need to keep it at shock level, by adding liquid chlorine frequently, until the FC of 27 HOLDS OVERNIGHT. Once your FC of 27 holds overnight, or drops to 26, that's okay too, you have killed the algae and you can let the FC drop to your normal range of 5-8 PPM NEVER LOWER.

Is $7 a good buy for 2.5 gallon jugs? That depends on the chlorine percentage. I just bought 12.5% for $2.59 a gallon, on sale, at my local pool store. Usually its $2.99 a gallon. So if yours is 12.5% sodium hypochlorite, that would be about $3 a gallon, so that's about average.

The floatron is not helping your pool. FYI, Read this article....
alternative-sanitizers-and-chemical-free-pools-the-truth-t3025.html?hilit=alternative%20sanitizers

And the copper can end up causing you more problems than it is helping, trust me, I've been there.

If you haven't replaced the filter medium since your conversion, wait until your FC shock level holds overnight, then change the filter.

You need a good test kit, not strips. Get the TF100 or the Taylor K-2006. There is an article in Pool School that compares them. You need a chlorine test, specifically the FAS-DPD test than can measure FC up to 50 and also test for CCs, which you didn't provide.

Hope this helps. Once you get it all straighted out BBB is very simple an inexpensive. I think you are just missing some key points.

 

[JasonLion]

There are a couple of different things going on here. First, you are not done with the conversion yet. That is why you can't hold a FC level. Second, the copper in the water from the ionizer is probably what is causing the green water. Copper can be very problematic sometimes. Third, it is unfortunate that you added so much CYA. The ideal CYA level is between 30 and 50, and having CYA already in the water will slow down the remainder of the conversion.

To finish the conversion you are going to need lots more chlorine. The exact amount is different for every pool, you might need just a little more but you could easily need several times as much as you have used so far. You need to keep adding chlorine till you are not losing any FC overnight. There is a good article on baquacil conversions here in Pool School. Because you already have CYA in the water, you should be raising the FC level up to mustard algae shock level, instead of to 15, to finish the conversion. With CYA at 70, that means a FC level of about 40.

Copper in the water can cause unsightly stains. It will also sometimes turn the water a clear transparent green, which is what I see in your pictures. To avoid that in the long run, you want to get the copper level down as much as possible. You should be fairly safe when the copper level is down to 0.3, but lower is better. In the short run you can lower the PH down to around 7.2 and add a sequestrant.

Because your CYA level is now too high, I suggest replacing about 1/3 of your water with new water. That will also lower the copper level, hopefully enough to avoid further problems.

Your calcium level is starting to get up there, you really don't want CH above 300. Because of that you can't use too much more cal-hypo. A little more is probably alright, though you are already into the range where you can expect to see some calcium clouding after any cal-hypo addition.

I would go ahead and add 1 1/2 quarts of muriatic acid, better to use a little less than they suggest to be on the safe side. That will bring the PH down to about 7.1, which might help the green color and will help prevent any problems with the copper.

 

[MrFr33z3]

Thanks, guys!

I had a feeling the conversion wasn't completely over yet. Copper? Sheesh... Another suspicion I had. Here's where I'm at now...

After reading FPM's reply, I hopped in and vacuumed and scrubbed the entire pool, moved the steps and vacuumed up all the debris of varying color that was under there as well. I then took out the filter cartridge, cleaned it as well as I could, drained the filter areas to flush out the sand and other garbage, and added a puck to the chlorine feeder. I will be replacing the cartridge as soon as I've rid the pool of the green, and have a stable FC level, assuming the CYA drops to appropriate levels. Again, the Floatron device has been benched - for good.

I took another trip down to Pinch-a-Penny and got their last 2.5 gallon jug. In addition to this 2.5 gallon jug, I picked up another four 1 gallon jugs. However, upon looking at the contents, it appears as though they offer the 10.5% variety in any size. As of about 15 minutes ago, it's all in the pool. I'm going to wait about an hour and take some of the water to be tested, since my crappy Wal-Mart 3-in-1 test kit only goes up to 5.0 FC. :? (Hey, as I said, I have a Taylor K-2005 in the mail... I got a good deal on it.)

I also have a bunch of the Cal-Hypo left, but will only be adding that when I have to. I was told never to premix it, due to safety concerns, so I typically broadcast it across the pool very slowly and poor a bit very slowly into the skimmer when I've added it. It appears to dissolve rather quickly. My calcium hardness levels were always really low... I was actually adding some at one point, since I was at 0, and no matter what, they always dropped really fast. I'm hoping this will come down again soon. The heavy rains we get here almost daily really dilute things pretty quickly over a 2-3 day span under normal summer conditions.

So, that's 6.5 gallons dumped in around the perimeter in a rather short time span today. Do you guys suggest adding more for the initial dose? When I take a trip down to the store again, I'll be bringing back my 2.5 jug lender and have them fill it again. I'd rather not purchase any more of the disposable bottles, if possible. I'm hoping I can add this 2.5 gallons later this evening, or do half then, and half in the morning. Then I'll get it refilled again and tested tomorrow morning.

Thoughts?

Thanks again to both of you for taking the time to respond. I'll do my best tonight to come up to speed a bit further with the pool calculator and other related posts that are already up on the forum. I need to find my groove before I go broke, or buy stock in chlorine products soon!

 

[JasonLion]

That is plenty of chlorine for the initial dose. It might even be enough to keep you till tomorrow.

Your simple chlorine test (drops turn the water various shades of yellow) can be used to get some sense of the progress. If the chlorine level falls below 5 then you can go ahead and add more chlorine. Put in the entire 2.5 gallons if the test reads below 5.

The Taylor K-2005 contains the DPD chlorine test. That test also only reads up to 5, though it can do a bit higher with dilution. For the final stage of a baquacil conversion it is really nice to have a FAS-DPD chlorine test, which reads up to 50.

 

[MrFr33z3]

Great, thanks again!

I'll test it out around midnight and see how things are going. I also ended up adding 1/2 jug of the commercial Chlorox (6.15%) that I had laying around, since the pool store was closed, and I just wanted to be certain that there was enough to kill whatever is in there and give me a good "kickstart", as I've already added a *ton* of chlorine since the beginning of last week, and it always ends up disappearing overnight!

My better half is on her way to Publix and will be picking up some generic bleach in case I need it tonight or tomorrow morning. Last night after shocking the water, the test strips that read up to 10ppm immediately turned purple after emerging the strip, so I guess I had at least that amount in there - hard to tell.

Bummer about the K-2005. I should have read the fine print (the whole titration bit)! I thought you could at least read up to 15ppm with a Taylor K-2005 though. If that isn't the case, I'll simply sell it to someone with less pool "issues" and get a K-2006. Oh - and the gal at Pinch-a-Penny confessed yesterday afternoon that they use a K-2005 to test their customer's water, so I don't believe they'd be able to tell me what my "real" FC ppm levels are anyway.

Most recent shots:

 

[The Mermaid Queen]

assuming the CYA drops to appropriate levels.

CYA will not fall on its own. You will have to do a partial drain/refill to lower it.

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

There's an article in Pool School that compares the K-2006 to the TF-100, and IMHO you get more bang for your buck with the TF test kit, it's less expensive and you get more reagent. I have one, and I highly recommend it.

Just to clarify, I agree one hundred and ten percent with Jason's recommendation. The only reason I didn't advise a partial draining because I ran my pool last summer with a CYA of 70. It means more bleach, but it's doable. Over time, thru water replacement from splashout, etc., it will come down slowly. Rainy season in FL is coming right? My pool had too high CYA for several years before I understood what was happening. It took me three partial drains/refills to get it to 70. Since my May opening, it's gone down to 30, because I did another partial drain in May and got it to 40. Now because of splash out and all the rain we've had, and I had to drain out some water, it's dropped again. I can't believe it but I think I'll be adding CYA.... didn't think the day would ever come that I would be buying it at the store!

So the sooner your CYA is lowered the easier it will be for you, I just wanted to point that out. Glad you got rid of the floatron!

 

[Bossm4n]

Stick with it. You will be so happy when you complete the conversion and get the levels where they are supposed to be. Also, make sure that the Commercial Clorox you mentioned is not the Outdoor version. The Outdoor Clorox contains chemicals other than bleach, primarily a surfactant that you don't want in your pool. Good luck.

 

[MrFr33z3]

CYA will not fall on its own. You will have to do a partial drain/refill to lower it.

Yeah, I'm afraid this might be true here. However, we actually are in our rainy season now, and due to the mini-monsoons we see most afternoons, CYA, calcuim, etc. all seem to drop quicker than they usually do under "normal" circumstances. Add to this, that when it doesn't rain, the Florida sun beats down on the pool for the entire day. We are in a new development where there are no trees, and the pool is far enough away from any structure that there is literally no shade during the day - ever. Partial drainage will certainly be done though, should the levels not drop to a manageable level within a reasonable amount of time.

IMHO you get more bang for your buck with the TF test kit, it's less expensive and you get more reagent. I have one, and I highly recommend it.

I'll take your word for it and take that plunge... Any chance of clarification on whether or not the K-2005 can actually detect up to 15ppm though? Where's the best place to get a TF kit - is there only one choice? Thank you for sharing your CYA history, btw. I don't feel so nervous about giving my existing water a chance. (*Update: Just bought the TF kit online.)

Stick with it. You will be so happy when you complete the conversion and get the levels where they are supposed to be.

I appreciate the encouragement. It's easy to get frustrated when it takes that extra bit of time to get things ironed out. I'm getting frazzled rather easily about all this now, but I feel like I'm making the right decision here, and that's the most important thing.

Also, make sure that the Commercial Clorox you mentioned is not the Outdoor version.

Yup - I always check the contents. Sodium Hypochlorite was the only active ingredient. I think it was called "Germicidal Clorox", which explains the 6.15%, no? Is there some other kind of hidden chemical in this stuff that I'm not aware of? Either way, I won't be putting any more in there.

My wife picked up some generic 6.00% bleach jugs from Publix, so I'm going to use that to keep the levels up tonight/tomorrow and see what happens. The water looks worse than it ever has. I now have some Borax in my possession as well. I wasn't able to pick up any Muriatic Acid, due to the fact that the pool store was closed, and when I went to Wal-Mart a couple hours ago - nobody even knew what I was talking about... "We don't sell acid here." - sheesh! So, I'll probably have to pick some up at the pool store tomorrow morning and I'll add the 1 1/2 quarts that Jason suggests.

Thank you all for your help! Stay tuned...

 

[The Mermaid Queen]

Where's the best place to get a TF kit - is there only one choice?

The TF100 is only available in one place... see the link in my signature! Dave is a regular here, so besides the great kit and speedy shipping, you also get free 'tech support'!

 

[heikejohn]

Our Lowes has Muriatic Acid in the paint department. About $5.00 - $6.00 per gallon.
The Home Depot did not have any & Wal-Mart had no idea what I was talking about. They do have the large bags of baking soda in the pool section. (But I never need that)

 

[Guest]

A few notes.
If you read the directions on the lid of your K-2005 at the bottom of the chlorine test section it gives you instructions on doing a 1:1 and and a 1:4 dilution. With the 1:4 dilution you can test up to 25 ppm but you lose a lot of precision. It will do for now. Instead of junking the whole K-2005 keep it and just order the FAS-DPD test from TF testkits. The other tests are basically identical or very close.
Rainy season in FL, I know it well. It's a good time to lower CYA. Whenever the pool is overfilled from rain DRAIN OUT THE WATER. It's free dilution water. I tell all my customers the same!

 

[MrFr33z3]

Okay, it's the following morning... The water is still a clear green, but there is still quite a bit of FC in there still, which is good. Prior to putting this much in, I couldn't keep the level above 0 the following morning.

I ended up putting the two jugs of 6.00% in there around 1am (I have trouble sleeping sometimes) to keep the levels high. I took some water with me this morning to the pool store when I picked up an additional 5 gallons of liquid chlorine. The manager of the place tested the water himself, and did a "Whoa! That's a lot of chlorine in there". Apparently, their standard test only reads up to 4ppm, as he showed me, so the color was off the chart. He fudged it and entered a 9ppm for the reading. How accurate. I asked him if he had something that could read up to 25-50ppm and he said nothing will do that for me.

Anyway, here are the "readings" from this morning:

FC: 9 ppm (dunno about that one)
pH: 8.0
TA: 180 ppm
CH: 250 ppm
CYA: 100
Solids: 1,200

When they told me the CYA was at 100, I was pretty shocked. They said that is normal. On the high side of normal, but normal nonetheless. I've lost faith in their ability to help a this point. They're the main reason there is so much CYA in there in the first place. I won't listen to their "advice" any longer. Another salesperson stepped in to help, and I asked her if she'd test for iron/copper. There is a "small amount" of copper in there, she said... whatever that means. So, I picked up a bottle of metal control to put in once the chlorine levels drop.

The TF100 is only available in one place... see the link in my signature!

I ended up buying it yesterday, and received a message from DHL that it is on the way this morning.

Our Lowes has Muriatic Acid in the paint department. About $5.00 - $6.00 per gallon.

The pool store had a gallon of MA for $3.99, so I grabbed one. I've since put about half of it (2 quarts) into the pool - around the perimeter.

So, my TF-100 kit is on the way, my water is green, and my numbers are too stinkin' high. I'm dealing with some unique variables here, such as the conversion, and the effects of the Floatron device. This is the primary reason I'm having difficulty deciphering what the green is, but I'm leaning toward the fact that it might just be the copper.

My plan is to keep the FC levels up throughout the day, let it drop to "normal" - however long that takes, and add the metal control while keeping my pH and TA levels in order. Does this look like a sound approach at this point? I'd like to see what a few days of rain will do for the CH and CYA levels, since they typically drop on their own in my pool for some reason. However, since the pool store has been my primary source of test data, I'm questioning everything I've done up this point - aside from what you folks have been advising, that is.

 

[MrFr33z3]

Instead of junking the whole K-2005 keep it and just order the FAS-DPD test from TF testkits.

Ah, okay - I don't have the K-2005 kit yet, so I'm still shooting in the dark either way - Especially since the local pool store hasn't been any real help, aside from selling me more product. I'll just use the TF-100 when I get it. In the meantime, I may be looking for a more capable store, should one exist in my area. Lesson learned.

When it pours down here, the pool overfills and spills out of the skimmer. I usually remove the lid so it can flow out easier. Silly question, but does the CYA sit at the top of the water? If so, draining from the top is a good thing, yes? (I'm really grasping here, huh?)

 

[Guest]

Silly question, but does the CYA sit at the top of the water? If so, draining from the top is a good thing, yes? (I'm really grasping here, huh?)

Nope, but that old wives tale does circulate around. Depending on who tells it the CYA either stays in the top 12 inches and they say to drain from the skimmer or the CYA stays at the bottom and they say to drain from the main drain!
Can't happen both ways and if you look at the science behind it you realize that CYA exists as a species DISSOLVED in the water and like anything else dissolved will dissociate throughout the water evenly.

As to your conversion, it was never completed! You also had high peroxide levels when you started and peroxide kills chlorine so that is probably why you could not hold chlorine at first. Once the peroxide was used up is when you probably turned green, that was oxidized biguanide.

 

[MrFr33z3]

Can't happen both ways...

Okay then. If I end up draining it part-way, I'll just throw the vacuum hose in there hooked up to the skimmer and hook a garden hose up to the base of the pump filter and let it pump the water out. Dunno if there's any other way to go about it.

Once the peroxide was used up is when you probably turned green, that was oxidized biguanide.

Hmmm... So the biguanide is turning my water green? Would you guys say that my water is safe to swim in once the FC levels drop to normal levels?

Here are my FC/pH results from 5 minutes ago using my $5 Wal-Mart test, for giggles...

 

[JasonLion]

Keep in mind that the PH test doesn't work correctly when the FC level is that high. It will tend to read around 8.2 no matter what it actually is when the FC level is very high. So hold off on any further PH adjustments until your FC level comes down below 15.

It should be fine for swimming as long as the FC level is between 8 and 30. Some people will swim with even higher FC level. If the green is in fact copper, there is some risk of turning blond hair green.

 

[MrFr33z3]

Update - I ended up draining and replacing about 1/5 of my water (all I had time for), and so far, it's looking good. It is noticeably clearer than before, and the chlorine levels appear to be "holding" now. I have a 4-stage water filtration system for the whole house, and I use that same water to fill the pool with - so... There's no extra crud in there that I know of. Whatever was in there, like the leftover peroxide from the Baqua, is hopefully burned off by the intense shock I gave the pool last night. I've never had the chlorine actually stay in the pool overnight, and the readings are still off the chart without adding anything since 1am this morning. Very cool. I can tell by the "slightly lighter shade of orange" in my measly test kit, that the chlorine levels are very slowly coming down. Obviously hard to tell though. FYI - During this process, I've been letting the pump run overnight on the 2 HP setting. Tonight I'm backing that down to the 1/2 HP setting... 2 HP just seems like overkill, though I may be wrong.

Would anyone recommend throwing more chlorine in there at this point to be "safe"? I know there's no way to know for certain at this point, based on my inability to offer up any solid numbers at the moment, so I understand not receiving an answer on that one.

Admittedly, I feel like a complete pooltard for not having purchased a proper test kit before attempting to do the conversion. I found this forum *after* deciding to do the conversion, and was being guided by those... uh... "less knowledgeable" from the start. I'm glad I landed here.

Anyway - Fingers still crossed in hopes of less green in the water in the next couple of days. This process is teaching me a lesson in patience - not necessarily a bad thing in the long run, huh? I'll post shots of the progress.

As always - Thank you all, once again, for taking the time to help! My family and I truly appreciate it. They're all used to being in there every day.