Neglected pool almost fully resurrected

[ShumateWB]

Hi all:

I am a newbie to pools who just moved into an old house with an old neglected pool with all its equipment. The pool is approx 40x20 which the calculators tell me is around 30k gallons. The previous owner told us that the pool pump has not run in 5+ years. We had to fill the pool as part of the inspection and closing process a couple of months ago. The water has been stagnating since then until we moved in. Now that we have done so, I need to get the pool in good shape. I had a pool guy come in and take a look, but his advice did not seem convincing. He told me that I needed to redo the concrete around the skimmer ($3000 quote) before I got the pump going, but from what I can see the concrete in the pool is not leaking. I only see losses consistent with natural evaporation. That is what led me to research on the web and find this forum.

I started reading TFP last weekend and have ordered the TF100XL test kit. The water in the pool was turning green and was filled with mosquito larvae. So I dumped several gallons of liquid chlorine from Walmart into it. I also dumped in 4 lbs of Cal-hypo into it. This turned the pool cloudy blue, with a lot of pine needles and vegetation. I understand that I should hold off on adding any chemicals until I know what my current water contains. I am guessing that it has 0 CYA and a lot of organic matter. So I am turning my attention toward the pumping equipment.

Here is what I have:

• Sta Rite mpra6f-148l single speed pump: I know that the motor turns, but I am not sure if the pump works or not. The strainer/priming cup on the pump had a green slimy mess. What should I do before I try to get the pump going? There is no valve on the pipe feeding the pump from what I can see.
  
• Hayward DE4820 DE filter: I opened it up and it looked pristine. Basically, there were just the grid fins(?) with no DE or any dirt sticking to them. It looked like someone cleaned it up at the end of the season and it was never used after that. I bought a case of DE from Leslie's to use. The connections to/from the filter look like this:
  
  
  
  and this:
  
  
  
  How do I use this valve to backflush and vacuum the pool? I could not find a "vacuum to waste" setting, so I don't know what I can do to clean the pool.
  
• Polaris 360 cleaner: The bag is torn up, so I have ordered a replacement. I don't if the cleaner itself is salvageable. I am not sure how and where it connects and how to test it out. Any pointers will be appreciated.
  
• Skimmer: Has two holes with filthy black stuff in it. I have filled up the pool to beyond that level, but I am concerned about all the yucky mess in the plumbing that has been left over the years. Also, can I use this skimmer hole to vacuum the pool?
  
• AMF Paragon timer with orange and white disk - seems to work, but I am not sure what I should do to test it out fully. Any suggestions?
  
• Solar pool heater - there is actually an ancient natural gas heater next to the pump, but it is disconnected and I believe needs to be junked. There is also a solar heater on the roof. I have no idea what its condition is. To make matters worse, the piping out of the pump shed that "should" go to the heater seems to be cut just outside the shed and I have no idea where the rest of the piping leading to the roof begins if I want to try to resurrect the heater.
  

My plan is to get the pumping equipment going first and then try to use the mesh basket to scoop up the vegetation in the pool. Once I get the test kit in hand and look at the results, then I will try to figure out the SLAM strategy. I will look into the heater, possible pump replacement etc. after my pool is clean. Please advise if I am on the right track.

Thanks!

 

[Isaac-1]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

It sounds like you are on the right track, I can try to answer some of your questions, so here goes:

1, you are in the land of expensive electricity and a single speed pump is the pool equivalent of driving a 20 year old Chevy Suburban, so you should consider replacing it regardless soon. As to using it for now, I would flush it out with a hose, lube the strainer basket seal with silicone or teflon lubricant, same for the drain plugs, make sure the impeller spins freely by hand and apply power and hope for the best.

2, You have a basic push-pull backwash valve. I have never owned one, but the operation is simple, you can filter or you can backwash that is it. I think some of this type have replaceable o-ring seals, for now I would say try it and see if it leaks. You can attach a backwash hose to the that cut off stub of pipe to redirect backwash water. I think used fire hoses on ebay for $30-50 are a MUCH better value than those flimsy thin blue hoses that sell for $20-$30

3, Yes you can vacuum through the skimmer, but may want to add a leaf catching to keep from clogging up the plumbing

 

[duraleigh]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

Welcome to the forum.

1.

My plan is to get the pumping equipment going first and then try to use the mesh basket to scoop up the vegetation in the pool. Once I get the test kit in hand and look at the results, then I will try to figure out the SLAM strategy. I will look into the heater, possible pump replacement etc. after my pool is clean. Please advise if I am on the right track.

That sounds like the perfect start. Please confirm you have a leaf net with which to get out the solid debris (show a pic) just to confirm you have the right piece.

2. Next, a comment on your post. To many of us who try to answer 50 posts or more daily, your post is too complex to analyze and read so those posts like yours are often skipped in favor of the shorter ones that are succinct and the questions split up into easy to read threads...

1. Here is what I have:
Sta Rite mpra6f-148l single speed pump: I know that the motor turns, but I am not sure if the pump works or not. The strainer/priming cup on the pump had a green slimy mess. What should I do before I try to get the pump going? There is no valve on the pipe feeding the pump from what I can see

Make that one post and stop. Get that issue resolved. Then, DON"T START A NEW THREAD! Ask your next question within the thread and then stay there until you get that answer clear in your mind. Continue that until this thread gives a seemingly long account of you "pool story" Frequent responders LOVE to help on these posts because they are easy to read, comprehend and the entire "picture" is laid out nicely in front of them. You will get lot's of clear, concise answers.

 

[ShumateWB]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

1, you are in the land of expensive electricity and a single speed pump is the pool equivalent of driving a 20 year old Chevy Suburban, so you should consider replacing it regardless soon. As to using it for now, I would flush it out with a hose, lube the strainer basket seal with silicone or teflon lubricant, same for the drain plugs, make sure the impeller spins freely by hand and apply power and hope for the best. ...

Tell me about it. Everything is expensive here. I will want to, if the pump works, use the pump for at least a couple of months and then consider upgrading to a VS pump. I am hoping to sell my old home by then and get some money back in the kitty to be able to afford additional expenses.

You can attach a backwash hose to the that cut off stub of pipe to redirect backwash water. I think used fire hoses on ebay for $30-50 are a MUCH better value than those flimsy thin blue hoses that sell for $20-$30

Thanks. I see some deals on firehoses on our local Craigslist. How do I attach a firehose to the stub?

Please confirm you have a leaf net with which to get out the solid debris (show a pic) just to confirm you have the right piece.

This is what I have:

Next, a comment on your post. To many of us who try to answer 50 posts or more daily, your post is too complex to analyze and read so those posts like yours are often skipped...

Make that one post and stop. Get that issue resolved. ...

Good suggestion. I had listed out an Equipment "Scope of Work" and wanted it to be as complete as possible as though I intended to hire someone to do it.

I will see if the pump works today and let you know how it goes.

Thanks!

 

[jmbradwell]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

Slip the hose onto the stub and a hose clamp or two should do fine. If the hose comes with the brass coupler on it you will want to cut it off.

 

[ShumateWB]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

Slip the hose onto the stub and a hose clamp or two should do fine. If the hose comes with the brass coupler on it you will want to cut it off.

OK, I will do that.

I started the pump yesterday after scooping out as much of the muck from it as possible. Upon starting, it actually sucked out all the water from the skimmer due to the relatively low water level and lost the priming. That is good news, right? I will fill the pool some more and try again today. Next will be to check on the filter functioning. It looked like the filter pressure gauge was not budging in the brief few minutes of testing that I had done. So I might have to replace that. Is it okay to start out with backwashing without adding any DE?

 

[jmbradwell]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

You need to put DE in after every backwash. Without it, your not filtering anything.

 

[ShumateWB]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

You need to put DE in after every backwash. Without it, your not filtering anything.

Yes, I understand that. It is just that right now the filter has no DE at all and is clean as a whistle. When I tested the pump for a few mins, it probably pumped in quite a bit of cruddy, filthy water leftover in the piping/equipment for years into the filter. If I were to open just the backwash valve, all that yucky stuff would just flow out instead of going through the uncharged filter, right? Right now, as I am waiting for the tests to arrive, I am just testing out the equipment.

 

[jmbradwell]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

Sorry, misunderstood your original question. Re-read your post. You can start it either way ( backwash or filter ). Your water will still be going through the filter. On filter, your flow would be Pump -> Filter Inlet -> Filter -> Filter Outlet -> Return to Pool and on backwash your flow would be Pump -> Filter Outlet -> Filter -> Waste.

I hope I'm understanding your question now. If not, hopefully someone more knowledgeable will come along with a better answer.

 

[Isaac-1]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

Sorry for the delay (I am on vacation), on the topic of the fire hose, you can either cut off the end as suggested, or you can add about $10-$15 worth of fittings to allow you to screw it on. Fire hoses use their own proprietary style fittings, and there are a few in use in the US, most are NH or NST (same thing, National Standard Thread), but there are others that are still in use in some locations that kept their old standard adopted by some major cities long ago, most commonly NPSH, but there is also FDNY, .....

 

[ShumateWB]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

Update on 7/13:

I still don't have the test kit yet, so I am working on the equipment. In the meantime, the water is turning a light green. Hopefully, I will have a lighter blue pool by next weekend.

My pump works mostly. I do see a trickle of water leaking from the pump, but I am going to let it be for now. As long as it does not turn into a larger leak, I am okay with it. This is because I will eventually have to replace it with a new variable speed pump to bring down electricity costs in the long run. I don't want to spend money on existing equipment that will get replaced.

The filter seems to work as does the pressure gauge. I started the pump and saw that the return was quite forceful, so I think it is okay for now. But over the couple of days that I ran it, the water flow at the return reduced drastically and the pressure rose. So I got myself a fire hose and started to backwash the filter, but I think the pool level was still too low and the skimmer started sucking air. Just backwashing alone seems to reduce the pool level significantly. Evaporation and backwashing has reduced the level by about 2.5" in about a week. Is this normal?

I have started looking at my Polaris. One of the connections in the hose, basically the last section that connects to the wall, is broken. There is a quick connector on the return on the pool wall. Then there is the hose that connects to it with what looks like a "T". The other end of this hose is broken. For the life of me, I cannot figure out how to connect and disconnect the hose sections. I would love to get the wall connector thingy on to the end of the good hose instead of the broken one. Is it just a matter of forcing the ends together?

 

[ShumateWB]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

7/14 Morning:

I left the pump running overnight for the first time with some bad results.

1. There were air bubbles in the return line and the water force was quite wimpy. Based on searching the forum archives, it looks like I have a suction side airleak. I will check the pump lid lube etc. this evening.

2. More disturbingly, the water level fell down about an inch overnight. Where could this leak be? I know the pump is leaking, but it is a trickle and does not seem to come close to losing that much water.

Could the pump intake line have sprung a leak overnight causing both the water loss and the air leak?

 

[ShumateWB]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

Got the test kit this afternoon and ran the tests. I am not sure if I am doing it right. The OTO test gave no results and the pH test did not change color at all. I don't think I did the FAS-DPD test right either. I added two scoops of R-0870 after which it seemed clear, but started to turn pink after a minute. The pink color did not go away even after 26 drops of R-0871. I do have a green pool with oodles of algae carcasses, but I have not added any fresh chlorine in ten days. I am not sure if my CC is being measured correctly, especially since the OTO test is showing zero. In any case, here are the results:
pH - 8.2+
TC- 0 ??
CC - 0 or 13+ ???
TA - 160
CH - 150
CYA - 0

I am not sure if I am doing the Chlorine and pH tests right. Can anyone advise?

PoolMath indicates 3 jugs of 10% bleach to reach Slam level and 489 oz of CaCl2 to bring up the CH. Can I instead add Cal-Hypo to kill two birds with one stone?
I will also need to add muriatic acid to bring the pH down. I need to add approx 7.5lbs of CYA to bring it up to 30ppm.

Regarding the equipment, I refilled it up to the previous mark and did not run the pump and the level basically stayed put. This morning's air bubbles in the return was due to the low water level causing the skimmer to suck air. This probably means that there is no plumbing leak on the suction side. Either the leak at the pump is more severe than I thought or there is a plumbing leak on the return side. To fix the pump leak, I have ordered a DynaGlas pump rebuild kit. Hopefully I can turn that around quickly since I cannot reasonably Slam without a properly working pump.

 

[ShumateWB]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

Latest update:

I got the pump rebuild kit and did the pump repair over a couple of days. I had to put in a new plastic conduit since the old one was basically broken. The pool pump repair is a good news/bad news scenario. Isn't it always?

I turned the pump on and found that the pump leak was fixed by my repair. However, the bad news is that the return line is still pumping bubbles of air. I found that one of the cut off plumbing lines (to the solar heater) is responsible for the leak. I put a container full of water where the cut off line was and found that the water was being sucked in. I think a check valve on the line has failed. I will put a PVC cap on it tomorrow and retest. I hope that is the last of the leaks - keeping fingers crossed.

I added some muriatic acid to lower the pH, some CYA and a few bags of Cal hypo to keep the algae in check. I am using Cal hypo since I need to raise CH anyway. The pool color is a pale, cloudy blue as of now. I have not begun the SLAM yet, since my pump equipment is still not working fully.

 

[ShumateWB]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

Here is the check valve that has failed. Is it repairable?

 

[Butterfly]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

Someone will be along to help with the check valve.

My comments in red inside quote:

I am not sure if I am doing the Chlorine and pH tests right. Can anyone advise?

We have extended test kit directions here: http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/24188-Extended-Test-Kit-Directions
...and, we have a TF100 test kit youtube video, too! See link in my sig.

PoolMath indicates 3 jugs of 10% bleach to reach Slam level and 489 oz of CaCl2 to bring up the CH. Can I instead add Cal-Hypo to kill two birds with one stone?

Generally we recommend adjusting one chem at a time, but if you have it on hand & need CH, you can use it.

How old is the pool plaster? You need a combo brush, if you do not have one.
Brush info:

Nylon is for vinyl, fiberglass, tile, and plaster that is less than one year. (Plaster includes any exposed aggregate and marcite finish, btw!) Combo brushes are for older plaster. All stainless are for algae (very stubborn green algae and also the ONLY brush for black algae.)

You CAN unscrew the Wall Whale from the nylon brush it comes with and screw it on a combo brush if your plaster is over a year old. Newer plaster is really too soft for anyting other than a nylon brush.

Let us know if you need help with the test kit.

Welcome to TFP

 

[ShumateWB]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

How old is the pool plaster? You need a combo brush, if you do not have one.

Welcome to TFP

Thanks! I take it that the brush I showed in post #4 of this thread is a nylon only brush and needs to be replaced by a combo brush, right?

The plaster is probably decades old. The worse part is that it is flaking off. I can find bits of blue stuff in the pump basket. That is why I am trying to increase CH using Cal-hypo. I will probably need to have the pool replastered before next year's season unless you guys tell me that I need to do it sooner than that.

A bit of good news update is that the water and air leaks seem to have been fixed. The end cap I put on the solar line has fixed the air leak and the pump rebuild with new o-rings and shaft seals has fixed the water leak. I left the pump running overnight and I did not see the level go down. BTW, the filter is getting clogged within an hour, so I think running it overnight was completely unnecessary, but at least it confirms that there is no leak. I will start the SLAM this evening.

 

[ShumateWB]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

Just began the SLAM tonight at 7:00pm. The pre-Slam readings were:
pH 7.4
TC 3ppm
FC 2
CC 1
CYA ~15 (not been a week since I added 4lbs. Will add a couple more lbs soon.)

I added 4lbs of 56% Cal Hypo which brought the readings to:
FC 19 (wanted a target of around 12)
CC 1
I know, I probably added way too much. Makes me wonder if my initial reading was wrong or if my pool size is smaller.

By 10:00pm, I had backwashed twice already and saw the pressure creep up to the top of the range again. I turned the pump off since I did not want to backwash in the darkness. I did a brief test to find that not much of the FC was lost:
FC 18
CC 1

Here is how the water looked on 7/15:




Here is the water yesterday (7/20) after adding 4lbs of Cal-hypo, 4lbs of CYA and 2 gallons of 15% muriatic acid in the intervening days.




Here is the water at the beginning of the SLAM today (7/21).

 

[Abigail K]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

Here is the water yesterday (7/20) after adding 4lbs of Cal-hypo, 4lbs of CYA and 2 gallons of 15% muriatic acid in the intervening days.

pH reads artificially high when FC>10, if your acid addition was based on the pH reading during SLAM, your pH may be too low.

 

[achianese]

Re: New owner of neglected pool

Makes me wonder if my initial reading was wrong or if my pool size is smaller.

I overestimated my pool volume quite a bit when I did my first calculation. I have a 4' shallow end and an 8' deep end, so I multiplied the area of the surface by an "average" depth of 6'. This gave me about 30,000 gallons. Later I did a more accurate calculation (using calculus!) and I got 19,000 gallons. In hindsight, I should have realized that the area of the deepest part of my pool is much less than the shallower parts.

Once you have the chemistry under control (almost there, it seems!) you can adjust your pool volume by seeing how much FC actually rises vs. how much you calculated it should rise. If it goes up by 1.5X what you thought, your pool volume may be 1.5X too large This assumes the FC in your chlorine source is accurate.