Help! Need new equipment

[mas985]

So the EE 1hp Superflo wouldn't be far behind the 2 pumps above (sorry for the ignorance on the math formula here)?

Superflo would be 56 GPM @ 52' of head. But I wouldn't use the Superflo on a spa.

Wow, so for the pool I can do a 1hp EE SuperFlo, SF-NI-1AE & it would be fine? That would save $120 over the Whisperflo. Does that mean that the Whisperflo WFE-3, is/was overkill & would use a bit more energy?

Yes it would be fine and the WFE-3 is very similar to the Superflo. The Whisperflo produces about 10% more flow rate but also uses about 10% more energy. Not a huge difference and either one would work fine with a 200 sq-ft filter.

O.K., so if I do the 1hp Superflo for the pool pump, would I still need the 200 filter? Or is it that I should get the 200 no matter what? Today one pool sales guys said the 200 was a waste vs the 150 because it's the same exact size housing with a filter that has more pleats, so it gets dirtier faster & costs more money to replace the cartridge. And, given the size pumps I'm looking at I won't benefit from it, only pay more for it. Another said I should just go with the 150 it's big enough to handle a 1.5hp pump & since I'm getting a 1 hp (Superflo) or 3/4hp (whisperflo) it was plenty.

I sized the 200 sq-ft filter for the Superflo using the APSP-15 standards. Pool stores are notorious for under sizing filters. But I think they are wrong about getting dirtier faster. The more surface area that is in the filter, the slower it clogs with dirt. Having more pleats should better prevent the dirt from clogging between the pleats.

 

[pc975]

Superflo would be 56 GPM @ 52' of head. But I wouldn't use the Superflo on a spa.

Was thinking of the WFE-4 for the spa.

Yes it would be fine and the WFE-3 is very similar to the Superflo. The Whisperflo produces about 10% more flow rate but also uses about 10% more energy. Not a huge difference and either one would work fine with a 200 sq-ft filter.

o.k., got it. Thank you.

I sized the 200 sq-ft filter for the Superflo using the APSP-15 standards. Pool stores are notorious for under sizing filters. But I think they are wrong about getting dirtier faster. The more surface area that is in the filter, the slower it clogs with dirt. Having more pleats should better prevent the dirt from clogging between the pleats.

I'm looking at the Hydraulics 101 filter sizing chart & I want to make sure I'm understanding/reading it correctly. If the Superflo produces 56gpm at 52 ft-hd, than it would be at 150 borderline 175 filter size. Is that correct? I would follow the flow.

By any chance are you familiar with the EasyTouch 4? Today a pool person said that I will need some sort of special Dual Chip ordered via Pentair so the Easy Touch can read the temperature of the solar & the spa, otherwise it will only read one temperature - the pool or the spa. I have never read anything about the need for a chip in everything I have read about the Easy Touch & it's programming/installation. Is this true?

 

[mas985]

So I used two different plumbing curves, one for the spa (Curve-A) and one for the pool (Curve-C). In the post above about flow rates, I was using Curve-A because that pump was for the spa. The pool should have lower head loss because you don't have spa jets. With Curve-C, the SuperFlo would produce about 70 GPM @ 40' of head.

I don't know enough about the Easytouch to comment but that information, if true, should be in the manual.

This graph might be useful for how to visualize the plumbing curve with pump curves:

 

[pc975]

mas985,
Sorry for dropping off the radar for a bit, but it took me this long to find an installer that will do the electrical/set up for an EasyTouch in this area (and that involved getting a Pentair Regional rep involved).

MY UPDATE & QUESTIONS.......at this point I had a new Clean & Clear RP 150 filter put in just to get my system up & running & am about to pull the trigger on a new intellipro VS (I like the union set up versus the intelliflo) & an easytouch 4 with IC40. Yes, I'm going away from the two pump system to a single pump system. I like what you said about it being best for the solar & I was also told doing this would allow me to use the solar to heat the spa (which it can't do now & I like the idea of that), and ultimately, I got tired of every pool person telling me to consolidate (o.k., I caved)! I guess I'm also hoping for even a few dollars of savings each month. Fyi, although we talked about the RP200, the RP150 has the same housing as the RP200, the only difference is the filter inside - it's cheaper to change the filter if I need to than it was to pay the difference upfront for calling it an RP200. The Pentair rep said that I should only need the 150, but it's good to know I can upgrade just by changing the filter.

My question now is about check valve/valve placement with a new single pump set up. I have 6 check valves now (1 after spa outlet, 1 before SWG but after heater, 1 after filter before solar, 1 after solar but before heater, 1 vertically between/before the inlet & outlet of the heater, 1 after the solar check valve on pool return line). The pool guy said I will only need one check valve now, which I believe is before the SWG but after the heater. I find this hard to believe? Although Solar has not been installed yet, I know we have to have at least have one for that. As you see from my photos, the equipment is very close together, so do I need another check valve between the filter & the heater or will the solar one cover that? Do I need others?

I know I have a check valve or valve problem now because the spa was already draining back a little (1") each night, but since the new filter install, which raised the plumbing up about 8" because of the RP inlet, my spa drains down completely when the pump goes off (so I turn a valve to stop it). Does this mean I need a check valve somewhere to stop this or will removing the second pump solve this?

I would also like to isolate my electric RayPak 11kw back up spa heater, because I think I might have a metal problem from it (based on opinions from resurfacing companies). The pool equipment guy said I shouldn't because it's better to keep water running through the heater as much as possible or it may rot/degrade inside (it gets used on avg. 4x/mo. & with solar, I hope not at all in the summer & less in the winter). Do you know if this is true? If not, can the heater be isolated & if so, will it need to be turned on with an actuator via the EasyTouch when it calls for spa?

Thank you

 

[mas985]

With solar you need two check valves. One after the filter and before the solar valve. The second is for the solar return to prevent back fill when shut off. Those are a must.

The SWG doesn't really need a check valve because the chlorine levels never get that high (unlike a chlorine feeder) so it wouldn't cause any heater damage anyway. Plus with solar, the lines drain anyway.

The only other place you might need one is for the spa if it is raised to prevent draining when shut off.

Yes, I'm going away from the two pump system to a single pump system. I like what you said about it being best for the solar & I was also told doing this would allow me to use the solar to heat the spa (which it can't do now & I like the idea of that),

You can do that with a two pump system too. And I don't remember saying that a single pump was best for solar. In fact, the opposite is true because of the high flow rate requirement of the jets.


As for isolating the heater, I don't think that is necessary and doesn't offer any benefits.

Are you putting in a filter, solar, heater bypass for the jets?

 

[pc975]

With solar you need two check valves. One after the filter and before the solar valve. The second is for the solar return to prevent back fill when shut off. Those are a must.

I'm guessing that the Pool installer was thinking that the solar people will install the necessary check valves when I install the solar in a few months. I did ask him the question though (waiting for answer). Maybe he thinks that it comes with the solar. He did say that he's leaving a stub out for them though (3 way Jandy valve). I guess I have to make sure there is enough room for the check valves to be added after. Does it matter if I do it now or when the solar is installed?

The SWG doesn't really need a check valve because the chlorine levels never get that high (unlike a chlorine feeder) so it wouldn't cause any heater damage anyway. Plus with solar, the lines drain anyway.

Interesting. The salt cell now is just under 3' from the heater & the check-valve is right before the cell. I also thought the reason for the check valve was because of some sort of gas build up? I see from the Intellichlor installation manual it says allow 3' from heater & install before pool/spa return (which it is) to avoid gas traps in pipes. I guess that solves it. It also says if you exceed 80gpm, you need a bypass set up for the Intellichlor. I'm guessing that with 4 spa jets, I won't exceed 80gpm? And since it will only be that high when the spa is on, that I don't need a bypass set up?

I just checked a current RayPak installation guide & it shows in a diagram that a check valve is put in before the salt cell & says if an automatic chlorinator or chlorine feeder is used an anti-siphoning device should be used (I'm guessing that's the check valve) to prevent chemical backup into the heater when the pump is shut off. It also says not to exceed 60gpm or I need an external bypass. This would explain all of the existing check valves I have (one between the heater & cell & a vertical one between the inlet/outlet pipe). I would think the flow with the spa on is higher than 60gpm. Would the solar drain down solve the chemical issue here too or should I be better safe than sorry?

The only other place you might need one is for the spa if it is raised to prevent draining when shut off.

The spa is raised (12") above the pool water level - which is probably why the spa is draining down now - a check valve or valve is bad, which tells me that the spa will drain down in the new set up if there is no check valve.

You can do that with a two pump system too. And I don't remember saying that a single pump was best for solar. In fact, the opposite is true because of the high flow rate requirement of the jets.

How would that work with a 2 pump system? In the current set up, when I turn on the spa pump, in order for the solar to remain on the pool pump has to stay on. If I do that, than I'm heating the pool & spa, which I thought wouldn't heat up the spa fast enough or much at all because part of the water would be going back to the pool. If I turn the valve that makes all of the water go back to the spa only with the pool pump on, it would still overflow into the pool, although not like a waterfall.

You said, "the VS would require higher RPM when running solar but there are ways to reduce the RPM by strategic placement of the vacuum release valve (ie: a few feet above the equipment pad). Power is related to the cube of RPM so yes, lower rpm has a dramatic affect on power usage. But at some point, it just doesn't matter much. For you, the reason to go with a VS is ability to optimize for solar because a two speed would likely have a lower lifetime cost than a VS." You also said to keep the spa jet pump separate, but I can't afford the VS plus a new spa pump. I guess I thought if I was o.k. with my 1.5hp for the spa jets, that the VS wouldn't have to put out more than that for the spa & I was told by Pentair that the VS RPM at 1.5hp is lower than the RPM of my current Jacuzzi 1.5hp (I thought the same might be true for the VS at 1hp compared to the RPM of my current 1hp Jacuzzi pump) so I thought maybe it would all work & I would save a few dollars too. Am I totally off?

As for isolating the heater, I don't think that is necessary and doesn't offer any benefits.

o.k.

Are you putting in a filter, solar, heater bypass for the jets?

I'm confused here. Do you mean for the electric heater? If so, I don't think I will have a heater bypass (never had one, even when I had solar before) & only wanted one now because of the possible metal in the water issue. The VS will use the RP150, so as far as I know, when it runs the spa, it will go through it too. Solar will be installed in 2-3 months. When I put the spa on now (with my old 1.5hp jacuzzi pump), it goes through the RP150 & it raises the pressure to 20psi (which Pentair says is normal/fine for that filter). The jet pressure felt fine (although without a side by side, with & without the filter, maybe I'm crazy). Do you mean that there should be a bypass for everything? Like an actuator that turns so the water doesn't go to the filter when it is on spa? Why would I need a solar bypass? I thought if the VS was running everything, when you ask for Spa, the solar would stay on as the heat source (because I can program the easytouch for that) & if I want to change it, I can ask it for the heater?

 

[mas985]

How would that work with a 2 pump system? In the current set up, when I turn on the spa pump, in order for the solar to remain on the pool pump has to stay on. If I do that, than I'm heating the pool & spa, which I thought wouldn't heat up the spa fast enough or much at all because part of the water would be going back to the pool. If I turn the valve that makes all of the water go back to the spa only with the pool pump on, it would still overflow into the pool, although not like a waterfall.

If it does what you say, it is not setup properly. The pool/spa valves on the circulation system should isolate to the pool or spa or spillover. So you should be able to set solar so that it draws from the spa and returns to the spa thereby isolating the water to ONLY the spa. If your setup does not do this, you should fix it so it does. This is the way a pool spa should be plumbed with two pumps.

A single pump will work fine but there are limits. For example, you might not be able to run the jets with solar because you don't want to run all the water through the solar panel when running jets. You can bypass some water but you really want to set the solar bypass for when you are using the pool so if you optimize for that, the flow rate will be low (highest efficiency) so the spa jets will not work so well. But just increasing the RPM could be an issue because then you might be sending too much water through the panels. It gets complicated when you have multiple objectives. I am just saying that do not have as much flexibility with a single pump.


Another issue with a single pump, is the flow rate is generally high for spa jets, depending on the jets and the flow rate requirement for each. So that is why I asked about the bypass. Sometimes, it is a good idea to bypass water around the filter and heater when running at such high flow rates. But since you have only 4 jets, I don't think you will need a bypass.