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Thread: Liquidator question

  1. Back To Top    #1

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    Liquidator question

    Do you actually use less bleach with the liquidator or is the usage the same? I just pour bleach in front of my jets each night.
    20 x40 IG vinyl pool

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    revstriker's Avatar
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    Re: Liquidator question

    In theory, by maintaining a consitant FC level, you would use less as you'd be able to maintain a lower FC. But I don't know how this really translates to real life.
    10K White Plaster Pool Built in 2007. Hayward Pump and DE Filter, Hayward Navigator, Liquidator (Removed due to issues), Solar Blanket, BBB user.

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    Re: Liquidator question

    I have been debating about getting one all summer. I just didn't know if it was worth fighting the battle of the white stuff.
    20 x40 IG vinyl pool

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    Re: Liquidator question

    Quote Originally Posted by jinnbaker1
    I have been debating about getting one all summer. I just didn't know if it was worth fighting the battle of the white stuff.
    I'm pretty close now to having all my lines, valves and such all 3/8 inch instead of the 1/4 inch ID that comes with the unit. This should greatly improve the White stuff situation as the passageways are not so tiny. I was kind of regretting mine for a few days, but now I love it. I've not had to add any chlorine directly to my pool in over a week. If I get lazy, drunk, tired, out of town..etc at least I know my pool has some chlorine in it

    I just can't stand those hockey pucks in my pool while I'm away.

    Edit: To answer the original question, so far I'm using less bleach. Also I'm not going from close to zero FC to 8 or 9 each night. The constant flow during the day appears to really be working well. I can come home 3 hours after my pump has shut off to still find an acceptable level of FC.
    ~25k G 20x40 Free form plaster
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    Re: Liquidator question

    I use less. It keeps the FC at a stable level rather than fluctuating. I have no WS so far but I keep my pH low (~7.2 to 7.5)
    15,500 gal, inground gunite pool with 7 ft spa, 2 speed pump 2hp/.33hp, 3/4 hp booster pump, Intermatic P1353 timer, AutoPilot SC-48, Sand filter with ZeoBest, Heater, that I never use . . .

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    Re: Liquidator question

    Quote Originally Posted by cruzmisl
    I use less. It keeps the FC at a stable level rather than fluctuating. I have no WS so far but I keep my pH low (~7.2 to 7.5)
    What did you change? You used to have WS as you mentioned in this post.
    Other than pH, what are your numbers? Borates?
    This is my ticket for Heaven (when all's working..) :
    22k Gal gunite IGP, 38 SF Anthony DE filter, 1 HP Hayward Super Pump
    380k BTU Raypak Natural Gas Heater (Model RP405A) and solar cover
    8 gal Liquidator w/ 12% bleach, Dolphin Diagnostic Advantage robotic cleaner. 3800 ppm salt, 50 ppm borates.

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    Re: Liquidator question

    I noticed some snow flakes in the black funnel the other day. Is this the WS which some talk about? My PH has climbed above my normal level of 7.2 to around 7.6. Only real differance besides the PH is that my CH climbed from 350 -400 due to fill water. With the lack of rain down here, the fill water contains more junk during this time then other times of the year when rains are more common. I used an old fish tank net to scoop it out. It feels and tastes like salt.
    20k Gunite/Prism Blue-Pebblesheen, Pentair Tagelus TA-100D Sand Filter, Heliocol Solar Water Heater, 2 bubblers and 2 waterfalls installed 2007, 3hp IntelliFlo VS Pump 011018 installed 2013, Aquabot Turbo T4 RC and Stenner 45MHP10 w/The Liquidator container installed 2012.
    Antigua Spa by Artesian Spas: 325 gl, 52 jets, 6 hp 2 sp & 6 hp 1 sp, Circulation System 24 Hour Whisper Pure, Ozonator, LED digital lighting, The Artesian Pillowfall installed 2007.
    Retired: 2hp Pentair Whisperflow, Legend Platinum w/booster pump, PH Adjuster

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    Re: Liquidator question

    I hooked my LQ up last night and used the lines and most hardware that came with it except for the saddle clamps. (I went and got 1/4" threaded barb fittings, one for the heater manifold drain, the other for the strainer basket drain, and 2 more for the flowmeter as they leaked air with the black fittings that came with it in each end).

    To also answer your question: I set the LQ at the recommended 3 on the flow meter and checked the FC level when I started it up, it was at 6.5ppm FC before it ran all night. I then checked the FC this morning, and it was up to 13. So it looks like I will just have to dial it down till it just trickles out. Which in turn seems like I will use less chlorine. (Before the LQ I was adding 1 qt of chlorine to the water each night as I only lost 1.5ppm in a 24 hr period.)

    Before adding Borates I was adding 96oz of 6% bleach everyday. So I have Borates and that seemed to also make it so that my chlorine usage dropped because of them. Before Borates added 96oz of chlorine everynight, after adding Borates went down to adding only 1qt of chlorine everynight, the bather load and sun on the pool were pretty much the same everyday before and after my little test with the Borates.

    I added the Borates just because others that posted their numbers, and the problems with the white stuff, in my eyes seemed to have only the Borates in common but that is just my little experiment that I am doing.

    Im sure that if the LQ ia used according to the chemistry (changing it to accomodate the LQ so you dont get the WS) in your pool that you wont have any problems. I think alot of it has to do too with the flow that you end up getting, mine has a good flow as you can see from the LQ adding 6.5 ppm more to my pool overnight. Others had to modify theirs to get and acceptable level. You just have to hook it up and see what works best for you, every pool is different is my take on the LQ and it works differently for everyone.

    FWIW this in my little experiment with adding the Borates and the LQ, so take what is said above with a grain of salt. I will keep a close eye on mine and post later what I came up with the LQ/Borates experiment.

    Hope this hepls
    Brian
    24' round Vinyl liner Doughboy 48" deep 52" sidewall
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    Doughboy Silica II filter with Zeosand
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    Sundance Optima '97 450 gal. spa w/Delzone ozonator
    Beats driving to the lake, and I'm only a block away from the lake!!

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    Re: Liquidator question

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabot
    I noticed some snow flakes in the black funnel the other day. Is this the WS which some talk about?
    Almost everyone, I presume, has these white stuff floating on the top, but this isn't THE WS. You have WS if your outflow line is no longer transparent because it's full of WS and your flow meter is filled up with milky water instead of clear water.
    Do you need a pic?
    This is my ticket for Heaven (when all's working..) :
    22k Gal gunite IGP, 38 SF Anthony DE filter, 1 HP Hayward Super Pump
    380k BTU Raypak Natural Gas Heater (Model RP405A) and solar cover
    8 gal Liquidator w/ 12% bleach, Dolphin Diagnostic Advantage robotic cleaner. 3800 ppm salt, 50 ppm borates.

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    Re: Liquidator question

    Yes please. Please take pictures of the inside of your tank too.

    I have been assuming your "WS" has been in the tank of the LQ and it affects the preformance of your LQ by accumulation of "WS" on the plastic outlet valve and the flow indicator down stream of the LQ.

    The "WS" in your tubing is not the "WS" that we have been talking about in the tank. Some believe it's scale and I still believe it's salt. The "WS" in the tubing comes from using the stock vinyl tubing which the chlorine will break down. You will need to replace it with tubing which will handle the chlorine. You can clean out the tubing to a degree with some diluted Muriatic acid or replace it as you see fit with the exact same tubing which you can find at Home Depot. The vinyl tubing is really cheap in price and quality. Just to be sure we are talking about the same "WS" stuff, pictures would aid in the discussion.
    20k Gunite/Prism Blue-Pebblesheen, Pentair Tagelus TA-100D Sand Filter, Heliocol Solar Water Heater, 2 bubblers and 2 waterfalls installed 2007, 3hp IntelliFlo VS Pump 011018 installed 2013, Aquabot Turbo T4 RC and Stenner 45MHP10 w/The Liquidator container installed 2012.
    Antigua Spa by Artesian Spas: 325 gl, 52 jets, 6 hp 2 sp & 6 hp 1 sp, Circulation System 24 Hour Whisper Pure, Ozonator, LED digital lighting, The Artesian Pillowfall installed 2007.
    Retired: 2hp Pentair Whisperflow, Legend Platinum w/booster pump, PH Adjuster

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    Re: Liquidator question

    To clarify, the WS that interfers with my LQ operation forms as a crystalline substance on the float valves......specifically right around the moving valve mechanism itself. This WS interfers with operation of the outflow valve by accumulating in areas with very little clearance causing the valve to stick.....normally in the open position.

    This WS is VERY easily removed (15 seconds in muriatic) and the operation of the valve returns to normal once the WS has been removed.

    Logic would seem to indicate it's calcium precipitating from the pool water. It doesn't seem to me it would be salt because the salt is in much higher concentration in the bleach and would become a lot more diluted as the pool water passes over it. On the other hand, conditions inside the LQ would seem to be perfect for calcium scaling and, in fact, would be almost unavoidable.

    Would muriatic so quickly remove the WS if it was salt? I don't know.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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    Re: Liquidator question

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabot
    Yes please. Please take pictures of the inside of your tank too.

    I have been assuming your "WS" has been in the tank of the LQ and it affects the preformance of your LQ by accumulation of "WS" on the plastic outlet valve and the flow indicator down stream of the LQ.

    The "WS" in your tubing is not the "WS" that we have been talking about in the tank. Some believe it's scale and I still believe it's salt. The "WS" in the tubing comes from using the stock vinyl tubing which the chlorine will break down. You will need to replace it with tubing which will handle the chlorine. You can clean out the tubing to a degree with some diluted Muriatic acid or replace it as you see fit with the exact same tubing which you can find at Home Depot. The vinyl tubing is really cheap in price and quality. Just to be sure we are talking about the same "WS" stuff, pictures would aid in the discussion.
    It seems, Sabot, that you missed my previous posts on the topic or you had forgotten what I posted, so let me summarize my experience so far, along with pics.

    1. I installed my LQ about six weeks ago with the original vinyl tubing. Within a few days the outlet side of the tubing started to have white deposits. The flow meter was still clear.
    2. After about a week I changed the outlet tubing to Tygon Ultra Chemical Resistant 2075 which is supposed to be bleach resistant.
    3. After a couple of weeks of use the tubing became full with WS and so was the
    flow meter. (see pics). Also, there are white deposits on the hinges of the "out" flow valve, as duraleigh posted.
    4.Despite all this WS, I have had no flow problems or any LQ performance issues so far. The only issues I had were non-WS related and they were taken care of (Hayward saddle fitting and including the check valve in the "In" line.)
    5. WS "floaters" (see pic of black filter) come at early stage but they are not an issue.

    As to your situation - did you check if your well water contain magnesium?

    Flow meter and tygon tubing filled with WS



    Out float valve



    WS on top of funnel water

    This is my ticket for Heaven (when all's working..) :
    22k Gal gunite IGP, 38 SF Anthony DE filter, 1 HP Hayward Super Pump
    380k BTU Raypak Natural Gas Heater (Model RP405A) and solar cover
    8 gal Liquidator w/ 12% bleach, Dolphin Diagnostic Advantage robotic cleaner. 3800 ppm salt, 50 ppm borates.

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    Re: Liquidator question

    Thanks for the pictures!

    Wow! That is some serious creame that you have flowing there!

    What is interesting to me is that your water in your LQ tank is normal. Deposit seems to start at the outlet and work its way up the valve assembly. I am not seeing any deposits forming on the feed tube.

    When the water from your tank moves into the outtake, the deposit forms. Do you have any deposit on your intake? (Can you snap a picture of the inlet?) Have you disconnected the hose before the pump and see if the water is cream in color when it comes out the hose? (This can be done when the pump is off and before the drain down)

    Why are there deposits on the valve assembly and not on various parts of the feed tube? Does it take circulation to form the deposit on the valve assemble? Why would the deposit not form on the area in the tank that is stagnate such as the tubing or the side walls of the tank? Or even on the float for the valve assembly?

    But when it enters your tubing it turns into cream. I never saw anything like this before on mine, even before changing to Tygon tubing. I would love to hear from the experts on what is happening in the tubing that will cause the fluid to change so drastically. With the vinyl tubing, did the water clarity the same going through the flow indicator?

    If you disconnect the tubing at the outlet at the LQ tank, does the water flow out of the LQ tank clear or the cream color? If it’s clear, then there is a reaction going on in your tubing. I would recommend replacing it to another type of tubing (R3400 Tygon or similar chem. Tubing)

    Could you please take a few more pictures of your equipment pad, tubings and zoom out view of the inside of your LQ?
    20k Gunite/Prism Blue-Pebblesheen, Pentair Tagelus TA-100D Sand Filter, Heliocol Solar Water Heater, 2 bubblers and 2 waterfalls installed 2007, 3hp IntelliFlo VS Pump 011018 installed 2013, Aquabot Turbo T4 RC and Stenner 45MHP10 w/The Liquidator container installed 2012.
    Antigua Spa by Artesian Spas: 325 gl, 52 jets, 6 hp 2 sp & 6 hp 1 sp, Circulation System 24 Hour Whisper Pure, Ozonator, LED digital lighting, The Artesian Pillowfall installed 2007.
    Retired: 2hp Pentair Whisperflow, Legend Platinum w/booster pump, PH Adjuster

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    Re: Liquidator question

    **** My response starts in your "quote" and continues under.

    Your questions in blue my answers in bold red


    Quote Originally Posted by Sabot
    Thanks for the pictures!

    Wow! That is some serious creame that you have flowing there!

    What is interesting to me is that your water in your LQ tank is normal. Deposit seems to start at the outlet and work its way up the valve assembly.
    I am not seeing any deposits forming on the feed tube.

    You're right. Deposits are ONLY on the "out" line, starting from the "out" float valve and down stream all the way to the pump.

    When the water from your tank moves into the outtake, the deposit forms. Do you have any deposit on your intake? (Can you snap a picture of the inlet?)

    None whatsoever, as mentioned.

    Have you disconnected the hose before the pump and see if the water is cream in color when it comes out the hose? (This can be done when the pump is off and before the drain down)

    I didn't need to. There's some limited transparency left in the "out" line. When I squeeze the Tygon tubing I see that the water running through it is a thick suspension of WS. The WS is definitely not limited to the tubing wall.

    Why are there deposits on the valve assembly and not on various parts of the feed tube? Does it take circulation to form the deposit on the valve assemble? Why would the deposit not form on the area in the tank that is stagnate such as the tubing or the side walls of the tank? Or even on the float for the valve assembly?

    I'll answer to that in the discussion part below

    With the vinyl tubing, did the water clarity the same going through the flow indicator?

    I had the vinyl tubing for just a week or so. The WS didn't form on the flow meter yet. After I switched to Tygon, it took some time, more than a week, for the WS to accumulate and fill up the FM.

    If you disconnect the tubing at the outlet at the LQ tank, does the water flow out of the LQ tank clear or the cream color? If it’s clear, then there is a reaction going on in your tubing.

    It would be clear. See discussion below.

    I would recommend replacing it to another type of tubing (R3400 Tygon or similar chem. Tubing)

    Could you please take a few more pictures of your equipment pad, tubings and zoom out view of the inside of your LQ?
    It seems that you missed reading some important WS threads, apparently because
    you've never had it
    So here's what's known now, as I understand it.
    The WS is a deposit of calcium carbonate coming from a supersaturated solution of CC.
    Not all the factors controlling the mechanism are known. Some of them are thermodynamic in nature and some of them are kinetic. What's the difference?
    Thermodynamics can tell you what may happen and what may not happen, but it can't tell you if indeed it's gonna happen NOW under the current conditions.
    For example, if you mix hydrogen and oxygen in a container, according to thermo they should react to form water with a big bang. But they don't. This is where kinetics comes to play. In order for them to react they need a spark or a catalytic surface.
    The thermo part of CC deposits can be deduced from the SI analysis. Chem geek in this post (and others in that thread) gave an excellent review and calculations.
    The bottom line is: The higher the pH, the higher the TA and the higher the CH,
    the more likely we are to get CC deposition.
    Since the upper level in the LQ is enriched not only by FC but also by hydroxyl ions (pH higher than 8 ) lowering this pH by borates may help.

    Now comes the kinetic part. Supersaturated solutions form when the solute has reached its maximum solubility limit but it hasn't deposited yet because of kinetic reasons. It needs "seeding". As an example, sometimes you can cause this seeding by scratching with a glass rod the wall of a glass container filled with the solution.
    I did something similar with solution taken from the top of the LQ. Some precipitation occurred, although it was very little.

    We see WS only on the flow line because for some reasons related to the combination of solid/liquid interface and flow, the conditions favor seeding. Moreover, this is a slow process. Little WS is formed all the time, but it accumulates in the line.
    I hope it helped. Now we need YOU to tell us what is different in your system!
    This is my ticket for Heaven (when all's working..) :
    22k Gal gunite IGP, 38 SF Anthony DE filter, 1 HP Hayward Super Pump
    380k BTU Raypak Natural Gas Heater (Model RP405A) and solar cover
    8 gal Liquidator w/ 12% bleach, Dolphin Diagnostic Advantage robotic cleaner. 3800 ppm salt, 50 ppm borates.

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    Re: Liquidator question

    I have read most, you guys are getting a little too complex for me. My eyes glaze over when Chemgeek get's talking.

    I have a lot of CA in my pool. Last reading was around 400. I keep my PH low 7.2 is my goal but with using the pH Adjuster I am able to keep a near constant pH level. My FC peaks around 5ppm for a day after filling up the LQ and drops until the next refill. I keep my TA on the low side. I have posted many pictures of my system, so you can review those.

    Sorry I can't help more.
    20k Gunite/Prism Blue-Pebblesheen, Pentair Tagelus TA-100D Sand Filter, Heliocol Solar Water Heater, 2 bubblers and 2 waterfalls installed 2007, 3hp IntelliFlo VS Pump 011018 installed 2013, Aquabot Turbo T4 RC and Stenner 45MHP10 w/The Liquidator container installed 2012.
    Antigua Spa by Artesian Spas: 325 gl, 52 jets, 6 hp 2 sp & 6 hp 1 sp, Circulation System 24 Hour Whisper Pure, Ozonator, LED digital lighting, The Artesian Pillowfall installed 2007.
    Retired: 2hp Pentair Whisperflow, Legend Platinum w/booster pump, PH Adjuster

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    Re: Liquidator question

    I have been running my LQ since early June and have no WS similar to the pictures above. I do have some crystals on the bottom of the tank which I assume is the salt the manual talks about cleaning out when it is a few inches thick. Wish I had more to add as to why I don't have WS, but I dont...

    I have noticed that I get some dirt in the lines from time to time which sometimes clogs the purple float / valve, but a little shot from the compressor cleans it right out.
    Pool Details:
    - inground vinyl liner, approx 35,000 gal; Hayward DE-6000; Pentair VS3050
    - 600sq ft Heliocol; Blue Diamond; 8 Gal Liquidator
    - TF-100

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    Re: Liquidator question

    Quote Originally Posted by pooltime
    I have been running my LQ since early June and have no WS similar to the pictures above. I do have some crystals on the bottom of the tank which I assume is the salt the manual talks about cleaning out when it is a few inches thick. Wish I had more to add as to why I don't have WS, but I dont...

    I have noticed that I get some dirt in the lines from time to time which sometimes clogs the purple float / valve, but a little shot from the compressor cleans it right out.
    Please post all your numbers, including borates, if applicable, and % bleach.
    Also , tap water or well water? This may help.
    This is my ticket for Heaven (when all's working..) :
    22k Gal gunite IGP, 38 SF Anthony DE filter, 1 HP Hayward Super Pump
    380k BTU Raypak Natural Gas Heater (Model RP405A) and solar cover
    8 gal Liquidator w/ 12% bleach, Dolphin Diagnostic Advantage robotic cleaner. 3800 ppm salt, 50 ppm borates.

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    Re: Liquidator question

    Hope this helps...

    Well water

    FC 8.5
    CC 0
    TC 8.5
    pH 7.5
    TA 100
    CYA 70
    Pool Details:
    - inground vinyl liner, approx 35,000 gal; Hayward DE-6000; Pentair VS3050
    - 600sq ft Heliocol; Blue Diamond; 8 Gal Liquidator
    - TF-100

  19. Back To Top    #19
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    Re: Liquidator question

    Quote Originally Posted by pooltime
    Hope this helps...

    Well water

    FC 8.5
    CC 0
    TC 8.5
    pH 7.5
    TA 100
    CYA 70
    Well water! Both you and Sabot have well water and no WS!
    I wonder if this is relevant. Maybe yes.
    What's your Calcium Hardness?
    This is my ticket for Heaven (when all's working..) :
    22k Gal gunite IGP, 38 SF Anthony DE filter, 1 HP Hayward Super Pump
    380k BTU Raypak Natural Gas Heater (Model RP405A) and solar cover
    8 gal Liquidator w/ 12% bleach, Dolphin Diagnostic Advantage robotic cleaner. 3800 ppm salt, 50 ppm borates.

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    Re: Liquidator question

    Not sure what the CH is, I haven't tested that in a while as I have a Vinyl pool.
    Pool Details:
    - inground vinyl liner, approx 35,000 gal; Hayward DE-6000; Pentair VS3050
    - 600sq ft Heliocol; Blue Diamond; 8 Gal Liquidator
    - TF-100

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