Need help bringing an old pool back to life

[slythic]

Hi all,

I'm new to this forum and am hoping your wisdom will assist me in my journey to rehab my pool!

Quick background: Live in South Florida and purchased a 1950's house nearly three years ago. The house has a 15x25 14K gallon IG concrete block pool with delaminating plaster finish which has been empty since purchase.The pool is not screened in and there are few trees nearby just a few palms. The existing 1.5HP single speed pump and sand filter are from 1998. The pump works (use it to drain the pool during rainy season) and the sand filter is in bad shape. I would like to replace the equipment for something new. As you can see from the photos, the pool is in desperate need of refinishing as well!

My goal is to have a very low maintenance system. My second goal is a low electrical bill. I'm willing to spend a bit more upfront if necessary for this convenience.

The pool is currently plumbed with 1 1/2" galvanized pipe. This includes the two returns, the skimmer and the main drain. Later this year or early next year I plan to re-pipe the entire pool using 2" PVC pipe. Is 2" PVC overkill for this pool size? Many have suggested adding a third return but not sure it's necessary.

The pool is 14,000+ gallons (15 x 25, avg depth of 5') and I've calculated about 30-40' average head (1 main drain and 1 skimmer) to where the new pump pad will be located. I want to invest in getting a new variable speed pump (lower energy consumption), filter and a salt generator (less time spent going to store to buy chlorine containers).

Pump: I was thinking of getting the Hayward SP2300VSP Max-Flo VS pump which should be sufficient for my needs. This pump is rated 1.5HP so it would be useful even if I decide to add 1-4 deck jest but I'm still not convinced on those yet. I would also add an Intermatic PS3000 surge protector as I hear lighting strikes can be a killer for VS units, especially in my area. I called Hayward and they said that was a myth but better safe than sorry.

Filter: I know a lot of people don't like cartridge filters but I'm looking into it as I hear it's low maintenance if you oversize the filter. I was thinking of a 200sqft single cartridge or 320sqft quad cartridge. Is it possible to oversize a filter too much (could it actually filter less if it's too big)? I was looking at the Pentair Clean and Clear filters as the manual itself recommends adding DE to enhance filtration. Seems like the best of both worlds! With the VS pump I plan to run the pump and filter at low speeds for 8-16 hours a day, probably 365 days a year. Ideally I would like to clean the filter every few months... I've heard going as long as 6-12 months is possible. That sounds great because cleaning filters weekly seems like a terrible chore!

Salt Water Chlorine Generator: I would also like to incorporate a salt system mainly for the low maintenance upkeep (no weekly chlorine runs) but also because I've noticed salt pools "feel" better. I could be imagining this but it seems that way to me. Also, some of my family and friends suffer from allergies and I hear the salt system is better for them (not sure why or how though). I also want to oversize this (probably salt water generator rated for a 40K gallon pool).

Whitegoods: Thinking of going all Hayward. Skimmer is plumbed independently from main drain. Any model recommendations on skimmer, main drain(s) and returns? Pool will have 1 skimmer, 1 or 2 main drains and 2 or 3 returns.

Deck Jets: Any recommendations?


Some questions and concerns (some of which are hidden above):

1. Is 2" PVC plumbing for the entire pool system overkill? Seems like the right thing to do but want to make sure.
2. Is a Hayward SP2300VSP Max-Flo VS recommended? Any other pump recommendations?
3. Are cartridge filters the lowest maintenance option? Any other filter recommendations?
4. Is it possible to oversize a filter too much?
5. Any experience with a salt chlorine generator? Thinking of AutoPilot or Hayward Goldline.
6. Are they worth the expense and trouble of installing? Any deck jet recommendations?


That's a lot of info for a first post! Phew...

 

[slythic]

Replumbing and swimout bench construction advice needed

Merged by moderator. Please keep your related questions together as it helps us see the whole story. Thanks, jblizzle

Hi,

Looking for advice on trying resurrect this circa 1957 pool.

The pool is completely plumbed with galvanized 1 1/2" pipe. While the plumbing seems functional, the pipes near the pump are very corroded/rusted, I figure a lot of the plumbing may be the same way. I wanted to replace them all (main drain, skimmer and two returns - no vacuum line present) with 2" PVC schedule 40. I'm pretty handy so I wanted to save the quoted $3000-5000 by doing this myself and rather put that money towards getting the pro's to do the resurfacing (most likely diamondbrite) and tile finish.

The idea is to have one line for the skimmer, one line for the main drain (should I "T" in the deep end for two main drains?), and one line for the vacuum line. On the return I plan to run one line and split at some point for the returns. How/where should I split the returns? Also, pool only has two returns. I've been told three are usually installed but since my pool isn't very big (15x25 14K gallons) I think two returns would be okay to keep.

Any suggestions/tips for trenching down and eliminate/replace the main drain line?

I plan to have the plumbing pressure tested to make sure I didn't make any mistakes before closing everything back up.

I also plan to install a swimout bench the width of the pool on the deep end (about 6.5' deep). Any tips on how to best do this? Thinking lots of rebar attached to existing pool structure and 5000 psi reinforced concrete is the best way. Does plaster need to be removed before building the bench? Thinking the top of the bench should be about 18" below waterline.

Would love to hear your thoughts!

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Replumbing and swimout bench construction advice needed

Welcome to TFP!!!

Looks like a great project.

Your Suction plan sounds pretty good. And yes you should T into 2 floor drains (or one of the long rectangular ones) to meet code. Or abandoning the floor drain drain would certainly be less work. Add another return jet low in the deep end for circulation.

On the Return side, usually you want a loop all the way around the pool with T to each return jet to keep them balanced. With only 2 returns, I would consider just running them each separately back to the equipment pad with a valve to balance them.

Would not hurt to use 2" pipe for everything. Although with separate runs for everything to the pad, 1.5" pipe should be fine.

 

[slythic]

Thanks jblizzle!

Eliminating the main drain would certainly make things easier! However I've heard that the main drain is needed for proper circulation and for "cleaning" the bottom of the pool. An option would be to leave the main drain as is (it does work and there are no leaks to my knowledge) and continue to use it as is. Should it fail in the future I could just seal it up but this seems like a lazy solution. Any thoughts?

As for the return loop, that makes sense! I would rather plumb the jets individually though as that would avoid me tearing up the deck (even though that will eventually be covered by a new stone/paver flooring. There is one return on the North wall (where you can see the pump) and another on the South wall. I was originally told to add the third return jet by the steps on the East facing wall (wall closest to the house - where the posts are) as the flow of water would lead towards the skimmer. You're the first to suggest adding the third jet in the deep end which makes sense also. If adding a third jet, having 3 2" lines returning to the pool seems like overkill doesn't it? Would it be wise to "T" the return line for the south wall at the half way point of each return jet? It would technically be equal distance and should keep them balanced? If I'm confusing you just let me know and I'll draw this out!

 

[jblizzle]

Now that I see your other post I will add a few more comments:

Are you considering an automation system? If so, that the Max-flo VS is not a good choice as it does not interface with the automation systems. If not, that would be a fine pump, although if your electrical rates are not very high, then a 2-speed pump might be a more economical choice.

All filters have +/-, see: http://www.troublefreepool.com/content/160-pool-filter-comparison
For a 14k pool, if you got a cartridge over 200 sqft you should be fine ... but you can not go too big.

I have have 2 Hayward SWGs at my 2 houses. It is a nice mid-range SWG that is very popular and thus easy to get help with. We suggest sizing for 1.5-3 times the size of your pool, so look for a 25k cell at a minimum. Realize that SWGs tend to drive the pH up. So adding an acid automation system would help lower the maintenance ... although you still need to be testing often.

Speaking of testing, order up one of the Recommended Test Kits before your fill. The TF-100 is the best value.

- - - Updated - - -

Many Many pools work just fine without a floor drain ... keeping it / changing it / sealing it are all valid solutions. Although keeping it as is may not pass code.

I agree 3 2" lines would be over kill which is why for the returns, if kept separate would only need 1.5" pipes at the most. The deep return would provide the circulation if you got rid of the floor drain. If you can keep the pipe runs the same length, then just using a T should keep them balanced ... although not really a problem if they are not the same flow either.

 

[slythic]

Never really thought of an automation system. Do you mean an automation system that can disperse chemicals on its own or one that can be controlled/managed remotely from an iphone/ipad? Would have to research the topic. Though I love automation, seems like it might be more things to break (though it would be great while on vacations). Assuming automation, what pump would you recommend? My electrical rates are as follows (direct from bill):

Fuel:
(First 1000 kWh at $0.029470)
(Over 1000 kWh at $0.039470)

Non-fuel:
(First 1000 kWh at $0.060770)
(Over 1000 kWh at $0.071590)

There's also this link from FPL: http://www.fpl.com/rates/pdf/Residential.pdf

Not sure if that's above or below average but it seems pretty low. The reason I opted for the VS pump instead of the 2-speed pump was the price difference. For less than $100 it seems the VS pump is a better deal. Also I believe the VS pump can run cheaper a month as I can run it at speeds lower than 1500 RPMs for longer periods of time (thinking maybe 1000RPM or so for 16 hours a day).

Any idea how often a 200sqft cartridge filter would have to be cleaned in my situation? I don't mind spending more upfront to reduce my "chores" but if the 200sqft filter could last about 3 months I think I would be satisfied with that. I also like the smaller footprint of the 200sqft filter as opposed to the larger 320sqft quad-filter.

OK, now to my main drain dilemma! I've been researching the main drain options and found quite a few posts on here regarding this. I even read the APSP Case Study "The Option of Pools without 'Main Drains'", which was very informative.

I just want to make the best decision now that I have the opportunity. The main drain and plumbing seems to be in good condition, that's what I use to drain the pool before it starts to get nasty. I'm positive there are no leaks as water level doesn't drop at all. It does look a bit nasty near the pump though. So I think I have 3 options with my main drain.

1. Have the main drain pressure tested. If it passes, convert it to a two drain system (both with anti-vortex, entrapement-free covers - 3'+ apart). If it doesn't pass, seal it up.
2. Seal it up and eliminate any worries of entrapment or future leaks.
3. Convert it to a deep water return (this would act as my third return).

Any thoughts?

 

[sargent]

Here is a pretty small footprint 250 sq ft filter. Maybe it would be a good compromise between a 200 and a 320.

 

[jblizzle]

You really do not have anything that would point to the need for an automation system. The only pause I have about the smaller VS pump is whether you would ever add a solar heating system. For solar you want to run on higher RPMs, and solar controllers will not be able to switch the speeds on the small VS, but would on a 2-speed pump.

Your power is pretty cheap so it may take you a few years for the VS to save more power over the 2-speed given the higher initial cost.

I think any of the 3 options you stated for the floor are reasonable. Personally, I think I would prefer #1, but maybe only because the pools I have had all had them. It does help remove some debris and can be useful to drain the pool some.

 

[slythic]

Here is a pretty small footprint 250 sq ft filter. Maybe it would be a good compromise between a 200 and a 320.

Thanks sargent! I hadn't seen Jandy but I've heard mixed reviews about them in general. My understanding is that Jandy is excellent when it comes to electronics and automation but not so much on pumps, filters, etc. Also, I like that Pentair itself wants you to use some DE with their filters.

 

[slythic]

Your power is pretty cheap so it may take you a few years for the VS to save more power over the 2-speed given the higher initial cost.

What pump would you recommend jblizzle? A plus is if it's compatible with an automation system but definitely not necessary.

 

[jblizzle]

Any 2-speed pump is compatible with automation systems ... it is those smaller VS pumps that do not integrate well.

So, I would look at 1HP 2-speed pump ... like the Pentair Superflo that I have or a Hayward SuperPump. Although this assumes that you have 230V power available for the motor.

 

[Divin Dave]

I have a pentair 420 cartridge filter on my 15K gallon pool. It filters awesome and you dont need any DE in it. The water is absolutely crystal clear.

With a larger filter and lower RPM, the wear and tear on the cartridges themselves will be less and so that should result in longer lifespan of the filter cartrdges as well as stretching out the cleaning cycle. Love my giant filter!

Sounds like a really nice project you have going. That pool is gonna rock when you get it finished!

Thanks sargent! I hadn't seen Jandy but I've heard mixed reviews about them in general. My understanding is that Jandy is excellent when it comes to electronics and automation but not so much on pumps, filters, etc. Also, I like that Pentair itself wants you to use some DE with their filters.

 

[slythic]

I have a pentair 420 cartridge filter on my 15K gallon pool. It filters awesome and you dont need any DE in it. The water is absolutely crystal clear.

With a larger filter and lower RPM, the wear and tear on the cartridges themselves will be less and so that should result in longer lifespan of the filter cartrdges as well as stretching out the cleaning cycle. Love my giant filter!

Sounds like a really nice project you have going. That pool is gonna rock when you get it finished!

Thanks Dave! It's an exciting yet scary project!

Wow, 420! I'm not familiar with Longview ,Texas... do you run your pool all year? How often do you clean your filter?

 

[slythic]

Any 2-speed pump is compatible with automation systems ... it is those smaller VS pumps that do not integrate well.

So, I would look at 1HP 2-speed pump ... like the Pentair Superflo that I have or a Hayward SuperPump. Although this assumes that you have 230V power available for the motor.

Thanks jblizzle, I'll take a look at those! I'm not sure yet, but adding 2 or 4 deck jets may be a possibility. Do you think 1HP is enough for this?

230V is luckily not a problem. The new pump pad is next to the utility room where the electric panel is located. So any changes are easy to make.

 

[Divin Dave]

Hi Slythic,
Yeah I'm open all year long.
Just finished and started the pool up this past November. I have my Pentair VS pump running on a program. Somewhere around 14 hrs a day I reckon.

Finally broke the filter down about 3 weeks ago to clean it. More out of curiosity or for practice more than anything. The pressure was fine. The filter after running for 7 months, didnt really need it. Only took about 45 minutes to take it apart, hose them down and put it all back together. I expect it will take a bit longer if they are really dirty.

Given my experience with it so far, I dont expect to have to clean it till fall - maybe. But if I get bored, I might do it anyway.

Thanks Dave! It's an exciting yet scary project!

Wow, 420! I'm not familiar with Longview ,Texas... do you run your pool all year? How often do you clean your filter?

 

[slythic]

I think any of the 3 options you stated for the floor are reasonable. Personally, I think I would prefer #1, but maybe only because the pools I have had all had them. It does help remove some debris and can be useful to drain the pool some.

I'm including some photos of the main drain pipe taken yesterday. This is at the existing pump pad location. As you can see it looks old and beat up, because it is... it could be as old as the house itself which is 57 years old. Having said that, it still works and there are no leaks that I'm aware of (haven't pressure tested yet though).

Since it's already there I would like to keep it but wanted more eyes to give me an opinion based on the photos. My idea (if I kept the main drain with existing pipe) was to cut about 12" off the pipe, attach a PVC elbow and direct the line to the location of the new pump pad which is about 15 feet away.

 

[slythic]

Hi Slythic,
Yeah I'm open all year long.
Just finished and started the pool up this past November. I have my Pentair VS pump running on a program. Somewhere around 14 hrs a day I reckon.

Finally broke the filter down about 3 weeks ago to clean it. More out of curiosity or for practice more than anything. The pressure was fine. The filter after running for 7 months, didnt really need it. Only took about 45 minutes to take it apart, hose them down and put it all back together. I expect it will take a bit longer if they are really dirty.

Given my experience with it so far, I dont expect to have to clean it till fall - maybe. But if I get bored, I might do it anyway.

Sounds like you might be able to go a full year without needing to clean the filter!

Glad to see someone with a similar pool size and very similar equipment to what I had in mind. What's your experience with the Intelliclor IC40 (I also plan on oversizing SWG)? I initially wanted the same Pentair Intelliflo VS 3HP pump to match the filter but thought it might be overkill and I hear the Pentair warranty for non-builders is too short.

I really want the 200sqft filter to work for me as I love the small footprint, if it can give me 3-6 months maintenance free filtration I would be sold. If not I'll just get the 320 or 420 (depending on price).

I love to hear that it's crystal clear water without the DE. Have you thought of adding DE as per the manual? From what I've read it makes the biggest difference at night by the pool lights.

 

[teknic88]

This is a great project. I am subscribing

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

[jro33176]

Nice to see another South Floridian here! I'm looking forward to watching your project.

 

[Divin Dave]

The IC 40 is fine. I run it on 60% for about 1 1/2 hours at 3 different times of day to maintain FC of 5-7. If there is anything I dont like about it, it's that there isn't a control panel in a real sense. There is no alpha-numeric display. Just red lights and green lights. (alpha numeric is available with automation system). The controls are all built into the cell itself, so when the time comes to replace it, will be more expensive than other brands. (todays price is about 600 online for a cell)
You cannot program it to turn on and off. There is no on/off button. You need a timer or automation system to turn it off when not in use, or unplug the power cord. (I installed a inexpensive intermatic timer because I squeak when I walk).
---------
Maybe the 200 sq filter will do you fine. It depends on your immediate surroundings I suppose. How many trees are around you. is there a bare dirt lot on the next block, etc all play into how often you will need to clean the filter.

I have a LOT of trees and other types of plants all around me, and I get a ton of pollen and other stuff in the springtime, so I opted for the big filter for only a couple or 3 hundred more dollars. I figure over the next however many years, the extra dollars vs cleaning it more often over a period of time was worth it for me.
Ive been through fall, winter and spring now, and my bather load is low, so I have no doubt, I can go a whole season, or year even, before it actually requires cleaning.

I have never considered DE in it either. I actually never read the manual to be honest. If maybe 3 suspended particles smaller than 10 microns visible directly in front of the light is considered annoying, then maybe you might want to put some in there. I actually have to bend over and look down in there to see any suspended particles in the water.
Here again, I believe it all depends on your maintenance. If you clean the bottom often (i use a robot 3 or 4 times a week), and you skim a lot to remove stuff before it sinks, then there will be very little, if any, suspended particles using a cartridge filter.

With my light on, and with absolutely calm water at night, you would almost swear the pool is empty. It is actually that clear. It's almost eerie.
The next time I break it down though, I think I will give some DE a go just to see if can get any better. If it does, that will just be more awesome!
"Now where did I put that manual?"
----------
As for the 3 HP VS pump. Yeah, its way overkill considering circulation and electric rates. However, if it burned up tomorrow, I would buy another one in a heartbeat! The thing is awesome. SUPER quiet! I like the fact that it has a lot of programming options that are not available in smaller, less expensive VS pumps. Also, I really like to play with the speeds and create different currents in the water. Its pretty cool and just plain ol' fun to do that.

FWIW, here are a couple of power consumption numbers for you for the 3 HP VS pump (the display shows you how many watts are being used).
3450 RPM's ~ 2700 watts (Speed 4) Really moves some water on High Speed! I can put out a house fire with this thing !! haha!
2500 RPM's ~ 1200 watts (Speed 3)
1500 RPM's ~ 450 watts (speed 2)
900 RPM's ~ 98 watts (Speed 1) - I like the ability to be able to run the pump for many hours on low just to skim for the same power usage as a lightbulb, to keep my pool clean. Also, all of the default speeds RPM's can be changed to whatever you want them to be.

I run a program without an expensive auto system.
Low speed 900 RPM from 5 to 8 a.m. to skim what got on the water overnight.
8 a.m. to 9:30 1500 RPM to make chlorine and skim
9:30 to 1 PM off.
1 PM - 2:30 1500 to make chlorine and skim
2:30 PM to 8 PM 900 for skimming
8-930 PM 1500 to make chlorine
9:30 - 11 PM 900 RPM for skimming
11 PM off till the next morning..
then repeat.

On weekends or evenings, if I want to play with it, its a simple matter of changing speeds by pushing the UP arrow. I dont have to manually turn it back down or worry about forgetting to. WHenever the program time kicks in for a different speed, it reverts back to whatever is programmed for that time.

The others are right. If you select the VS just to save money on the light bill, its not worth it at your and my electric rates. But if you want a lot of versatility without an expensive automation system, then it's worth consideration as an alternative. I bought my pump online for 869.00 vs the 1700.00 from my local Pentair Authorized dealer. I didnt figure that extra couple years warranty was worth double the price I could get the pump for. Pentair has a good reputation, so for me, the low risk was worth buying it online.

As a disclaimer, I've never had any pump other than what I have now, so I am not knocking any others.
I'm simply sharing my personal experience and observations.

Sounds like you might be able to go a full year without needing to clean the filter!

Glad to see someone with a similar pool size and very similar equipment to what I had in mind. What's your experience with the Intelliclor IC40 (I also plan on oversizing SWG)? I initially wanted the same Pentair Intelliflo VS 3HP pump to match the filter but thought it might be overkill and I hear the Pentair warranty for non-builders is too short.

I really want the 200sqft filter to work for me as I love the small footprint, if it can give me 3-6 months maintenance free filtration I would be sold. If not I'll just get the 320 or 420 (depending on price).

I love to hear that it's crystal clear water without the DE. Have you thought of adding DE as per the manual? From what I've read it makes the biggest difference at night by the pool lights.