Automated pH Correction - What do you think?

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Andrew@CAT

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In The Industry
Apr 24, 2008
7
Rockville, MD
Im doing a little market research.

I wanted to see where peoples thoughts are on pH automation for residential pools. Great idea, good idea, not worth the cost, just pain stupid, wheres the ORP?, whatever.

I'd also like some opinions on CO2 vs. Acid.

Hayward/Goldline, Autopilot, Acu-trol, and CAT (the company I work for) make some sort of pH controller. There are some others.

I really just want some honest opinions on the concept of automated pH control, i'm not looking to promote.

Thanks for the help!
 
I have an AutoPilot Total Control system and I love the PH automation. It just works. I have an acid tank and pump and that is great. I have never tried CO2 systems, but they sound like more trouble. My only concern is the price. It cost quite a bit and because of that I would not recommend it for most people.

For an outdoor pool a SWG and PH automation are all you need. ORP is more trouble than it is worth outdoors. I have ORP and it doesn't work and that has never been a problem. I simply use normal percentage control mode. But without PH automation I would need to do extra work that I don't want to do.
 
I think the expense is the biggest problem and the necessary upkeep the next biggest. As you know, peristaltic pumps are not the most dependable pieces of equipment if they are not maintained (we have one at the commercial site I help maintain that is constantly having problems).
As far as acid vs. CO2, acid delivery systems are going to be high maintenance no matter how you look at them and CO2 can cause TA to rise necessitating the need to add acid manually. I think they are wonderful for commercial installations where they are constantly watched over but I feel that most homeowners would not do the necessary upkeep.
As far as my own fiberglass pool with SWG, by tweaking my TA and adding borates to 50 ppm I have my acid consumption down to about 6-8 oz every 6 weeks or so. The manual addition of that small amount of acid is much less work than an automated system would be in my case.

Just my 2 cents.
 
ok... I'll bite.

just 2 days ago as i was reading the thread about The Chlorinator, I was thinking... "the heck with The Chorinator, I've got that puzzle solved with the swg... what we really need is an automated injection system for the acid... but given the "struggles" with chlorine injection, acid injection must just be too much to tackle."

so, I guess it's been tackled... and as I well know, the more nasty the fluid, the more dollars it takes to control it.

I'd definately be interested to know how much such a system runs dollar-wise, although now probably isn't the perfect time to be adding such "luxury items" into the budget.

Meanwhile, I'll be talking to Waterbear to see if he can help me get my cement pool to ingest as little HCl as his glass one. Just last night I added what I hope to be enough borates to get me to 50 ppm... I'll know in a few mins.

Thanks for coming back and asking. No matter your motive, you can't sell to or help people if you don't know their thoughts. Now feel free to give me some feedback on a budgetary cost of an acid system.

Good luck,
Steve
 
stevenbrla said:
Meanwhile, I'll be talking to Waterbear to see if he can help me get my cement pool to ingest as little HCl as his glass one.
Click to expand...
Probably never happen, it's one of the big reasons I went with fiberglass over plaster! Non reactive surface so chemical balance is easier.
 
I have recently installed an acid pump. I do not have a pH controller yet, however my pool automation system runs the acid pump for a period of time each day. I agree that $600 for a pH controller is a bit steep. I am looking into building a controller myself. Even a DIY unit using quality material will run $200 to $300!

So far my acid pump has been work for about 3 to 4 weeks and knock on wood have had not problems with it. One thing though, I do not feed concentrated acid, but rather a solution. I did this to start out with for safety reasons, if the entire pail of acid should feed at one time, I would not be massively over dosing the pool.

Another reason for the acid pump is by maintaining a nearly constant pH, I might be reducing the out gassing of CO2. Before the acid pump, I would add acid weekly changing the pH from 7.6~7.7 down to 7.2~7.3. By keeping the pH at the higher levels, I hope to lower the out gassing and possibly my acid demand.
 
I forgot to vote: "I love automation!" I also use Acid control for my gunite pool. I am running two passive chem feeders: The Liquidator & pH Adjuster.

- Can a CAT controller be used to control actuators?
- Can you explain if the ORP measurement? Will ORP measurement work in my system?
- What kind of maintenance is required for your controllers?
 
How about something that reduces pH without chemicals?

The water ionizers sold for health purposes (or some would say, quack medicine) separate the ions present in the water and discharge two streams, one alkaline for drinking and one acid for discard. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionized_water. Without making any judgments about the supposed health benefits of drinking the "alkaline water", it seems to me such a device could be built to produce low-pH pool makeup water from tap water. (Drinking the alkaline by-product would be optional at the discretion of the pool owner!) I have no idea what the cost to manufacture or operate such a device might be, but it would seem to have some potential.
 

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waterbear said:
stevenbrla said:
Meanwhile, I'll be talking to Waterbear to see if he can help me get my cement pool to ingest as little HCl as his glass one.
Click to expand...
Probably never happen, it's one of the big reasons I went with fiberglass over plaster! Non reactive surface so chemical balance is easier.
Click to expand...

Interestingly, they only time I've ever added acid to my cement pool was when I needed to get the TA down at the beginning of this season. PH actually seems to drift down ever so slightly for me. I have no idea how old my plaster is, but it looks to have several coats of paint on it. Planning a replaster in the next year or so...
 
chatcher said:
How about something that reduces pH without chemicals?

The water ionizers sold for health purposes (or some would say, quack medicine) separate the ions present in the water and discharge two streams, one alkaline for drinking and one acid for discard. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionized_water. Without making any judgments about the supposed health benefits of drinking the "alkaline water", it seems to me such a device could be built to produce low-pH pool makeup water from tap water. (Drinking the alkaline by-product would be optional at the discretion of the pool owner!) I have no idea what the cost to manufacture or operate such a device might be, but it would seem to have some potential.
Click to expand...

I suspect that they cost considerably more than other options.

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html
 
robrinker said:
Interestingly, they only time I've ever added acid to my cement pool was when I needed to get the TA down at the beginning of this season. PH actually seems to drift down ever so slightly for me. I have no idea how old my plaster is, but it looks to have several coats of paint on it. Planning a replaster in the next year or so...
Click to expand...

Plaster leaches calcium into the water, which raises the PH, which is why plaster pools need periodic additions of acid. It's worse when the pool is new or replastered, and gets less after a while.

I would guess that the paint is keeping the calcium from getting out of the plaster, in your case, which is why your ph is stable. Expect a change when you refinish.

I am like Waterbear, I have a fiberglass pool, and since I started using bleach, almost never have to adjust my ph, so I have no interest in a acid pump/ph controller.

I would like an orb based controller, but the commercial stuff is out of my price range. :cry:

Randy
 
After a couple of years, a plaster pool will likely settle down to minimal pH rise. After I switched to using chlorinating liquid in my plaster pool in the second year, I noticed virtually no rise in pH -- perhaps 0.1 rise in 2 months. I have a pool cover that is on and that virtually eliminates the outgassing that causes the pH to rise so I suspect that any calcium leeching is pretty minimal.

Richard
 
Sabot said:
I forgot to vote: "I love automation!" I also use Acid control for my gunite pool. I am running two passive chem feeders: The Liquidator & pH Adjuster.

- Can a CAT controller be used to control actuators?
- Can you explain if the ORP measurement? Will ORP measurement work in my system?
- What kind of maintenance is required for your controllers?
Click to expand...

1. like a solenoid valve to control the flow of water in to the chemical feeder?
2. I know very little about the The Liquidator & pH Adjuster, but in general sodium hypo and muriatic acid are ideal for pH/ORP controllers.
3. This is true of most controllers - clean sensors every month of use, re-calibrate as needed, replace sensors biannually
 
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