Switching Sequestrate from EDTA to HEDP

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ravenjim

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Sep 3, 2013
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Hi All,

I need to do the ascorbic acid treatment but I already added 2 bottles of EDTA Metal Free from Natural Chemist. I did this when opening the pool a few days ago.

From this forum (Thank You) I would prefer to switch to the ProTeam Metal Magic HEDP sequestrate which I already ordered.

Would it be okay to add the Metal Magic right after doing the ascorbic treatment or should I wait for a while since it already has a sequestering agent (Metal Free) in the pool? Not sure how the two will react together.

Thanks, Jim
 
ProTeam Metal Magic

I am about to start the ascorbic acid treatment and I'm a little confused with the amount of Metal Magic to add after the stains lift from the 27k gallon vinyl surface and why they want the ph at 7.5 or higher for best results.

The bottle list directions as follows:


Product Dosage

Initial Treatment:

32 fl oz per 10,000 gallons of water.

Routine Maintenance:

3 fl oz per 10,000 gallons of water per week.



Directions
1.For pools with iron, copper, manganese or other metals present in the water, apply over entire pool surface with filter system operating. For best results use 1 quart of ProTeam Metal Magic per 10,000 gallons of water to remove stains, prevent plating and restore water clarity.
2.Regular use of ProTeam Metal Magic will keep pool water clean and the pool shell and plumbing in good condition. For stain prevention use one quart per 20,000 gallons if testing indicated metals above 3 ppm, or use 3 oz. per 10,000 gallons per week if pool has a tendency to show increasing metal content in water.
3.Do not add more than recommended dosage. For best results use in early afternoon or evening with water temperature above 60 degrees, and run pump for 24 hours.
4.Once dissolved, metals are transported to the filter where they can be removed by backwashing or filter cleaning.
5.For best results, pool water pH should be at 7.5 or above when treatment begins. For copper/silver ion treated pools, remove electrodes or turn off ionizer for 5 days.

My question is, do I use the initial treatment dosage which claims to remove the stain. But it will already be removed, or should I use the maintenance dosage?

Also it wants the ph 7.5 or above which I don't believe should be that high right after the ascorbic treatment.

Thanks, Jim
 
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Re: ProTeam Metal Magic

You use the startup dose, i.e. one quart for every 10,000 gallons. The only exception would be if you have been using sequestrant regularly already.

Our recommendation is to add the sequestrant while the PH is still low. Raising the PH right after removing the stains tends to make the metals form stains again right away. They are assuming a somewhat different kind of usage, where you have not just used AA.

Topics merged. Please keep everything related to your AA treatment together in one place. What has gone before is very important in helping us answer your questions.
 
Re: ProTeam Metal Magic

Hi Jason,

You stated that they are assuming somewhat different usage. They as in ProTeam claim the Metal Magic will remove the stains and also the metal from the pool water if used to their recommendations. No ascorbic acid treatment and ph 7.5 or preferably higher (7.8). Also keeping the chlorine level around 1ppm. I did the sponge test with the Metal Magic and within 5 minutes the area around the sponge cleared the vinyl to it's original color.

My question is this. Has anyone tried using their product with a higher ph to remove metals from vinyl pool. Even if it doesn't remove them from the water and then only sequesters them, it would seem like an easier way then the AA treatment and then fighting to get the chlorine back in the pool along with raising ph.

I know lots have tried it with the ph lower but according to them it won't work unless ph is on the higher end. Do to the fact that the sponge test worked for me, I'm willing to give it a try and can always do the AA if it fails to at least remove stains from surface.

Thanks, Jim
 
The ProTeam approach works with some stains and not with other stains. We focus on techniques that work every time. In general sequestrant alone will lift recent stains most of the time, and older stains only rarely. There are many approaches, each of which has pros and cons. Their approach has lower odds of working at all, but if it does work it has better odds of removing the metals from the water completely.

There is no harm in trying their directions, and it will be much less work if it works out. Please keep us updated on how things turn out.
 
Will be doing it after the Memorial weekend because I don't want to fight cloudy water during this time. The stains are recent not old ones so maybe it will work. Worth a try at least.

Thanks,
Jim
 
Jim, I am awaiting your results with high hopes, just so you know :)

I usually do an AA treatment for my chronic iron issues but struggle with the demands in-season. This season I missed my window and stupidly tried the blue liner version of jacks instead of the pink one that's more aggressive with iron. So I have mild fresh staining ... And don't want to do AA until fall :)

If your approach works, I think I'd rather give that a shot for in-season control! So please keep us posted!
 
Swampwoman, I am in day two of the Metal Magic experiment now. So far I am pleased with the results. I can barely see any of the stains on my vinyl pool. During the day when the sun is out it looks like a new liner minus the fading. But when evening approaches I do notice a slight discoloration. My wife thinks it looks great and can't see what I'm seeing. I might just be seeing the clouds in the sky...IDK.
It is supposed to continue working for up to three days, If nothing else changed as of now I would be very happy as long as it is also removing the metals and filtering them out of the pool.

I will follow up with my final results and a metal analysis of the pool water when finished.
 

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My results from using Proteam Metal Magic to lift metal stains from my vinyl pool surface and then removing them from the water.

I wanted to try Metal Magic because it claims to not only lift the metal stains from the surface but also remove the metals by filtering them out of the water. I have used the ascorbic acid treatment with success to lift the stains, but they always returned to the surface again because the metals remained in the water.

Several days before adding Metal Magic

Added 2- 32 oz. bottles of polyquat 60 algaecide. Water turned cloudy but eventually cleared.
Started to lower the chlorine level to 2 ppm and raised the ph to 7.6 using borax. TA was 130, CYA 55
Did the sponge test per proteam instructions and it cleaned the stain from surface within 5 minutes.
Vacuumed and brushed entire pool.

Day 1

Added 5- 32 oz. bottles of Proteam Metal Magic to pool. Purchased from Pool Geek $16.81 each. Free s/h when you purchase 6 bottles.
Stains were slow to lift at first but started showing signs of lifting within a few hours.
No clouding of pool water.
Ph went down into the 7.2 range after adding MM
Continue to run pump on high speed. DE filter pressure did not go up on 1st day.
Chlorine held on at 1 ppm. An opaque cover would help keep the sun out but I didn’t use mine.
Vacuumed and brushed pool.

Day2

Water is still clear and no filter pressure increase. Continue running pump on high speed.
Stains are pretty much gone at this point. In the evening hours I can see a slight discoloration but my vinyl cover is 14 years old and faded. If it stays like this I would be very happy of the results. I did the ascorbic acid treatment last year and it wasn’t much better if any.
Started adding some chlorine to pool to bring up readings to about 5 ppm
By end of day the pool started to lightly cloud up for some reason. My ph went up into the 7.4 range after adding chlorine. It is removing something from the water either crystalized metal or slight algae from the chlorine level being low.
Had to drain filter, remove, clean and add new DE powder because pressure would increase soon after bumping the filter.

Day3

Pool is still cloudy today (not bad) Keeping filter running full speed.
Brushed and vacuumed.

Day4

About the same as day 4. Pool is starting to clear up nicely and chlorine level is holding well.
At night I turned on the pool light and noticed a lot of white specs floating around in the pool. I”m hoping these are the crystalized metal particles making the water cloudy and clogging up the filter.

Day5

Okay, pool water is looking good and the surface is as well.
As I said earlier, in the evening hours I notice my liner looks a little dull on the bottom. Not bad, my wife can’t see what I’m seeing. So to verify that there was no more metal staining, I took a vitamin C tablet and put it on the bottom of pool for five minutes. NOTHING happened…YES! :)

Day 6

Pool looks great! Still filtering at high speed.
I am very happy with the results thus far and hoping the metals are gone, as this was the main reason for using this product.

Day 7

I took pool samples to two different stores and here are the conflicting results. I have never had a reading of any copper in my pool. #1 used the drop test method, #2 used a calibrated color meter, and I used Taylor K-2006 kit.

Pool Store #1, Pool Store #2, My test results
Ph- 8.0, 7.5, 7.7
FAC- 5.0, 3.0, 5.5
TAC- 0.2, N/A, 0.2
CH- 60, 160, 100
CYA- 0, 25, 55
TA- 110, 155, 130
Copper- .3, 0, N/A
Iron- .3, 0, N/A
TDS- 1200, N/A, N/A
Phosphates- 300 , N/A, N/A

Conclusion

I cannot conclude at this point that the metals are gone from my pool due to the conflicting test results. I would have to say though, that I would agree more with the results from #2 for metal content, because I had never had a copper reading show positive before and the store is known for selling products. But to be sure I will have them rechecked in a week at more locations
It did not cost any more than doing the ascorbic acid treatment and was easier to balance the water levels when completed.
I find it hard to believe my cya is that low. When I check it with K-2006 kit, the black dot does disappear around 50-60 ppm. I’ll watch my chlorine usage to verify.

In no way am I claiming Metal Magic will work on all stains or any type of pool surface.
 
Good Luck Swampwoman,
I am very happy the way my pool looks now. I can't get over the test results from two different stores and the cya readings compared to mine.
I just finished bumping my DE filter again and it stays up about 1.5 lbs. higher than normal and That is only five days after changing out the powder. I can usually can go a month or better before the pressure increases and stays there. So it is catching something from the pool water.

ps. Remember to raise your pool's ph level to at least 7.5 or preferably higher 7.8 before putting in the Metal Magic.
 
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Okay, I finally ordered my metal magic to give Er a whirl before we're loaded with guests every weekend. Will pick up some polyquat today and let chlorine start dropping tomorrow :) ph is already on the rise so I figure in a few days it should be up to 7.8....usually i add it a few times a week (we keep current to help the pool skim capture all the leaves etc.)
 
No worries...my expectations are very low to moderate, but I have come to realize this season that even though I wasn't getting outstanding results from anything I tried previously on the historic stain areas, that left without a starter treatment indeed the staining is WORSE ;)

I am adding the polyquat today and checking the ph. I'll be happy just to whiten up the drain and the steps in truth. My liner has one of those patterns that hides well, so truthfully, I am likely the only one who notices much of the rest, except a few very obvious rust stains on the floor.

Considering where we started with the foreclosure swamp a few years ago, I'm grateful that I've had an operational and enjoyable pool never mind the battle scars on the liner ;)
 
Thanks, Jim. I'd only ordered six (intending to use five and keeping 1 for top ups) and was tight on time this am but after 10 min the sponge test had lightened the historic stains but not removed completely. I dosed with five bottles for my 23k gal and must say the steps are already clear 1 hr later.

When did you start bringing the chlorine back up. I'd dropped mine to 1 ppm by this am...but am nervous about keeping it too low for too long even with the two bottles of polyquat....
 
Good morning. Just an update...after 24 hrs at a rate of five bottles for 23,000 gallons, Matal Agic did a comparable job to AA on completely whitening my steps, drains and jets from mild to severe iron discoloration.
Like AA, it did not do much, although lighted, some severe historic stains from the foreclosure. And in the corner where I've suspected the discoloration is at least in part from an underliner growth, it did to some degree lighten but not actually remove the discoloration.

To date I've now tried AA (2 times at six pounds), a hydrogen peroxide treatment (1 time, kinda elaborate feeling process) and Metal magic treatment (in process). While at $16/bottle, plus two bottles of polyquat, MM is slightly more expensive than chemist-bought AA or hydrogen peroxide, it also feels a little easier so far for me and has the side benefit of well, I have to sequester the metal anyway."

Each treatment has whitened my steps and drains and had my liner overall look brighter and sparkly.

The next question will be to see if the chlorine additions hold better...with the AA-polyquat combo I had a heck of a time for literally more than a week getting the chlorine to hold.

So far, if chlorine holds, I think I like this treatment even if it doesn't actually remove but merly suspends the iron. The maintenance dose at 6 oz per week would also mean that IF its as effective, this product would reduce my sequestrate cost by more than half compared to jacks magic pink stuff (one bottle per five weeks versus one bottle per two weeks.)

I should also note that as an experiment I'd switched o jack's bue of vinyl liner stuff this year which clearly wasn't cutting it for iron staining compared to the pink.
 

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