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Thread: Need new pump quick, mine just died

  1. Back To Top    #1

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    Need new pump quick, mine just died

    Yikes - as I was just about to plan this slowly, my pump just died suddenly this morning forcing my hand to do something very quick. So, I am looking at replacing the pump but want to make a smart choice of a quality, lasting pump balanced with good price. I would also like to lower electric costs if possible but not to the detriment of the system working well and causing other problems.

    So here are my specifics. Pool in South Florida, electricity roughly 12.5 cents/kwh.

    Pool is 'roughly' 15x30 (a little less with cut corners, etc) guessing around 13-15,000 gallons.

    I have an Autopilot SWG SC-48.
    I have a pool sweep currently a Pool Vac Ultra, funny part is new 'Pool Cleaner' showing up today with dead pump. Sweep is dedicated suction port.
    I currently have a Hayward C-1200 cartridge filter - open to replacing this as well at some point
    I have an old Fafco, soon to be Heliocol solar system - 7x10.5 panels on a single story roof, maybe 10' rise and its right by pool pad, so minimal piping.

    Current dead pump is a Hayward Super Pump II, 1.5HP full rated.

    I have read alot about sizing pump, 2 speed, variable, etc and I think my head is spinning at 3450 rpm like the pump. It seems all of my equipment kinda fights each other for design. Pool is 16 years old so I can't tell much about feet of piping other than the pool pad is like 10' from pool, so I don't think there is ton of piping, and I have no clue about 90's, etc. I do know it is 1.5" pipe.

    Since pump is dead I now can't look, but iirc the pressure on a new filter cartridge is like 8-10psi without solar on and like 18-20 with solar on (approximately).

    My old habit was pump on 8 hrs day, pool sweep always on, SWG on and solar on control (on in sun).

    Going forward, I obviously need/want to have solar on (which is unpredictable during the day), SWG needs to be on, but I can run the sweep for just a few hours a few days a week (pool is under screen enclosure and I can stick an actuator on pool sweep to control on times).

    Ok, so solar guy (replacing the 17 yr old panels after roof is redone) says I could get by with a 1HP pump and does not recommend low speeds, just full 1HP.

    So, given all the detail above:

    1. Which brand pump is recommended. I hear bad things about current Hayward pumps. Sound like Pentair is recommended and solar guy highly recommends Sta-Rite DuraGlas.

    2. What size pump? With all the above do I need to just run a single speed and not worry about it, or can I do a 2 speed or variable? I know I need near full power for sweep, but not really sure about solar or SWG.

    If I need to just go single speed, should I lower to a 1HP or keep 1.5HP like I have now. Difference in cost should be like $10 mo at 8hr per day. If I need single speed, should I look at something like the Whisperflo or Duraglas?

    I appreciate the feedback and I would love to hear quickly as I need to order something like now before my pool turns on me. Thanks!
    Roughly 15x30 IG Gunite/Diamondbrite, 14,000 gallon
    Heliocol Solar 7(4x10) panels w/Aqua Solar controller, Intelliflo 4x160 pump, Hayward C1200 filter, Autopilot DIG-220 w/SC48 SWG, The Pool Cleaner sweep

  2. Back To Top    #2

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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    Why not just replace the motor on the current pump? If the pump part is working, that is the cheapest and easiest option. You could even replace with a 2 speed.
    20 x 40 vinyl IG. SWG. Solar. Ikeric VS pump.

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    ktdave's Avatar
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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    I have a Pentair Intelliflo 4X160 variable speed pump (has been replaced by VS-3050 Variable Speed Pump). Costs a little more, but saves quite a bit on power usage.
    11,000 gal. gunite w/midnight blue and white pearl PebbleTec
    Intelliflo 4x160 pump
    Intellichlor IC-20 SWG
    Pentair cartridge filter 420 sq. ft.
    Mastertemp 400K BTU heater
    Legend Platinum cleaner
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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    Why not just replace the motor on the current pump? If the pump part is working, that is the cheapest and easiest option. You could even replace with a 2 speed.
    I thought about that, but decided against it for a few reasons:

    1. I hear that the replacement AO Smith motors are now from China and they, well, stink.
    2. There is a leak at the output, so I need to take apart the plumbing anyway
    3. The basket is cracked, so that's a few bucks more

    The dang thing only lasted like 4-5 years, so I thought as long as I was replumbing, etc I would just change out the whole thing for a better one since I hear from several pros that Hayward is not what it used to be. I just did not expect it would have to be under 'emergency' conditions.
    Roughly 15x30 IG Gunite/Diamondbrite, 14,000 gallon
    Heliocol Solar 7(4x10) panels w/Aqua Solar controller, Intelliflo 4x160 pump, Hayward C1200 filter, Autopilot DIG-220 w/SC48 SWG, The Pool Cleaner sweep

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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    Quote Originally Posted by ktdave
    I have a Pentair Intelliflo 4X160 variable speed pump (has been replaced by VS-3050 Variable Speed Pump). Costs a little more, but saves quite a bit on power usage.
    I have read and do understand where variable speed would save $$, but I'm not sure how low I could go and still drive the solar and SWG properly. And since they (at least solar) needs to run a good portion of the day, I'm not sure variable speed would work for me, hence the details given.
    Roughly 15x30 IG Gunite/Diamondbrite, 14,000 gallon
    Heliocol Solar 7(4x10) panels w/Aqua Solar controller, Intelliflo 4x160 pump, Hayward C1200 filter, Autopilot DIG-220 w/SC48 SWG, The Pool Cleaner sweep

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    ktdave's Avatar
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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    Steve,
    I know Chem Geek has an intelliflo pump AND has solar, and he has had good things to say about it. Either search his posts or PM him for reference.
    11,000 gal. gunite w/midnight blue and white pearl PebbleTec
    Intelliflo 4x160 pump
    Intellichlor IC-20 SWG
    Pentair cartridge filter 420 sq. ft.
    Mastertemp 400K BTU heater
    Legend Platinum cleaner
    Pool School
    JasonLion's Pool Calculator
    TF Test Kits

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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    The most common failure item on electric motors is just the starter capacitor. I would remove that and take it to an electric motor repair place for testing. If it's bad, they can sell you a new one for $10-15 dollars. That would buy you some time and keep your pool in operation.
    26,000 Gallon Gunnite IGP
    2 HP Challenger High Head Pump
    60sf Nautilus DE filter
    Polaris 280

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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryH3
    The most common failure item on electric motors is just the starter capacitor. I would remove that and take it to an electric motor repair place for testing. If it's bad, they can sell you a new one for $10-15 dollars. That would buy you some time and keep your pool in operation.
    Thanks for that thought Harry, but idt this motor has a starting cap (at least not external like most) and even if it did, that ain't it When I noticed the pump wasn't running I also notice the other stuff, like the SWG was off. I checked and saw breaker was off and didn't think much about it so reset the breaker. When I did there was a pretty good pop and smoke, so it definitely needs a new motor. It just kinda sucks to have to figure this out quickly as I don't want the pool going green on me but I don't want to blow alot of $ on a pump that ain't gonna cut it either.
    Roughly 15x30 IG Gunite/Diamondbrite, 14,000 gallon
    Heliocol Solar 7(4x10) panels w/Aqua Solar controller, Intelliflo 4x160 pump, Hayward C1200 filter, Autopilot DIG-220 w/SC48 SWG, The Pool Cleaner sweep

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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    The nice thing about the Intelliflo is that it takes the guess work out of choosing a pump. The variable speeds allows you to optimize the flow rate for what ever job you may need it to do.

    It will work fine for solar although you will probably need to run it at higher RPMs than without solar to keep the panels efficient (they usually need 40+ GPM) and to keep the vacuum release valve closed.

    Also, you will not always be using solar so the lower speeds can be used for general circulation without solar and save even more. Even more so if you run over the winter.

    You could go with a 2 speed pump but in most cases, you will not be able to use low speed with solar (not enough pressure or flow). You could always run on low speed when not using the solar or cleaner but you will probably end up paying more in energy costs.

    So if your budget permits, I would go with the Intelliflo. The energy savings will more than pay for extra cost of the pump in a few years or less. You will probably need the controller box so that you can have the pump change speed when solar is on or off or when you use the cleaner.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    I just had the Intellipro (not the Intelliflo) 4 speed pump installed. You may want to look at that as well. It is much less expensive than the Intelliflo. Has the same super-quiet operation and allows you to run at the slowest speed for ALOT less power usage. The other pool components can be controlled with an electronic control system (I had the Pentair EasyTouch panel installed) and can be programmed to automatically adjust pump speed to accommodate the other components.

    The Intelliflo is cool because it adjusts itself automatically based on the flow requirements, filter pressure etc...

    I don't think you can go wrong with either. I did a lot of research on new pumps and everyone has been recommending these Pentair (Sta-Rite) models.
    Bill Boehm
    Cary, IL
    32,000 Gal, 20x40 IG Liner with water slide and swim out. Auto-cover, Polaris 280, Pentair (Sta-Rite) VS-3050 pump with EasyTouch Control System and Laars LG250N Heater.

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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    1. I REALLY appreciate all the responses so far, so please bear with me a bit.

    2. I do want to find a way to make a VS work, but at the same time I want to be fairly confident I am going to see some savings with it. I know it's a better motor than others, but I'm not sure I can justify extra $800 ($400 for pump and another $400 to control the speeds).

    I have seen others mention that the variable speed makes ALOT of sense at the lower speeds, but at higher speeds it can actually be worse, if not the same as regular 1 speed pump. So, that's where my concern is - I think I would need to run at the 1560 0r 2350 most of the time to see any kind of reasonable ROI. So, I am trying to figure this out the best I can with pump curves and sizing instructions.

    Using these instructions, I came up with my best guess with solar on and solar off. This is my best guess based on what I remember my filter cartridge pressures to be (around 8 or 9 psi solar off and 18-20 with it on). Vacuum loss is a complete guess, but using around 11 feet using the chart in the instructions although mine may even be worse with 1.5" plumbing? Going by filter pressure, I am estimating pressure loss to be around 21 with solar off and 42 with solar on. So that would give me total head of 32 with solar off, normal filtering and 53 with solar on. This was calculated using clean filter pressurex2.31.

    Ok, so if I did those calculations correctly, forgetting flow/gpm, I always have at least 32 Total Feet in Head in basic filtration mode, no solar, no cleaner. So looking at the pump curve for the VS3050/4x160, that means I will need to run at 2350rpm even for basic filtration with no solar. I will never be able to use the 1560 speed or lower since that appears to be good to a max of 20 feet of head. In solar mode it looks like I would need to likely jump to the 3110 speed which may very well use as much power if not more than a standard 1HP pump. Assuming I will be in solar mode somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of the time, it appears at least by my calculations that a VS will have a VERY SLOW payback if at all.

    Does my logic make any sense? Did I calculate head properly? Am I missing something that maybe would allow me to run solar at 2350 and filtration at maybe 1560? I think thats the only was I'm gonna get a payback?

    Thanks again Mark, etc who look at this - I truly appreciate your time and expertise.
    Roughly 15x30 IG Gunite/Diamondbrite, 14,000 gallon
    Heliocol Solar 7(4x10) panels w/Aqua Solar controller, Intelliflo 4x160 pump, Hayward C1200 filter, Autopilot DIG-220 w/SC48 SWG, The Pool Cleaner sweep

  12. Back To Top    #12
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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    Head loss changes with the pump size and RPM value so you cannot use a fixed head loss to determine what the Intelliflo will do.

    I tried running some of your numbers through a head loss calculator that I have but something doesn't add up. With a 1 1/2 HP Superpump II, your pressure should be much higher than 8-9 PSI which makes me suspect that your filter guage is not reading correctly. I have a 1 HP pump with 2" & 2 1/2" plumbing and my normal pressure is close to 19 PSI.

    Anyway, I can still give you an idea how the pump would work with my plumbing in my pool. It's pretty much relative so your savings should be similar.

    To get 2 turnovers, a 1 1/2 HP pump would use about 740 kwh (29 GPM/kwh) per month and an Intelliflo at 2300 RPM (47 GPM and positive pressure on 2 story house) would use about 330 kwh/month (64 gpm/kwh) or saving over 50%. Even if you went down to a 3/4 HP pump, the energy use would still be about 490 kwh/month (43 GPM/kwh) so the Intelliflo would still save over 30% in energy. So at 12.5 cents/kwh, $800 would be payed off in 16 months if compared to your current pump or 40 months when compared to a new 3/4 HP pump. But then I am not sure a 3/4 HP would be enough for the cleaner although it should.

    Also, this simple analysis does not include the time you would be able to run the pump at lower speed when not using solar.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    Thanks Mark!

    Ok, so let me ask you then. Assuming you are right and my gauge is fubar and my pressure should be higher, then that gives me even MORE head, right? Probably in the 60's with solar on. Unless I am really misunderstanding the pump curve, 2350RPM will max out at a little over 40 feet of head??? Which would mean having to run at 3110RPM? But you are saying you think I would be able to run at 2350? Your energy numbers make sense and a VS would seem to be a good idea, but I am still very confused/concerned about how I could run at 2350RPM with over 50 feet of head?

    Edit: Ok, I reread your first sentence and I guess you are saying it all kind of changes and I can't be just looking at > 50' of head???
    Roughly 15x30 IG Gunite/Diamondbrite, 14,000 gallon
    Heliocol Solar 7(4x10) panels w/Aqua Solar controller, Intelliflo 4x160 pump, Hayward C1200 filter, Autopilot DIG-220 w/SC48 SWG, The Pool Cleaner sweep

  14. Back To Top    #14
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve
    Edit: Ok, I reread your first sentence and I guess you are saying it all kind of changes and I can't be just looking at > 50' of head???
    Exactly, you can't use the same head numbers for a different pump let alone a different RPM. Everything changes. Runing at 2300 RPM will reduce head considerably.

    To give you an example and will use my pool again. So with solar:

    The 1 1/2 HP pump will produce 79' of head @ 70 GPM.
    The 3/4 HP pump will produce 58' of head @ 59 GPM.
    The Intelliflo @ 2300 RPM will produce 38' of head @ 47 GPM.
    The Intelliflo @ 3450 RPM will produce 85' of head @ 73 GPM.

    Higher flow rates produce more head loss and when the RPM is reduced, GPM drops and dynamic head drops too since it depends on GPM.

    The Intelliflo at full RPM is the equivalent of many 2 1/2 HP pumps in terms of power. Most people will never run the pump at full RPM except for spa jets.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    Ok, so just for my education , according to what I am reading TDH is comprised of both Vacuum and Pressure friction losses. It looks like Vacuum loss does change based on pump size, but it did not seem to indicated Pressure loss changing as well. The formula seemed to be fixed at filter pressure x 2.31 and that alone gets me > 40. But I guess you are saying that number decreases as well at lower rpm.

    Looking at the VS pump curve here (on page 4). it is very close to what you say, it looks like it will do a maximum of like 40' of head at 40GPM. So I think I am correct in my 'worrying' that over 40' of head at 40GPM I need to bump up to next speed. but I guess the big thing I am/was missing is my system may well have LESS than 40' of head at 2300RPM? If that is right then we are saying that the VS should be able to run my system with solar on at 2300, bump it up to next speed if I need for cleaning, and 'maybe' bump it down with solar off? Is that about right?

    Too bad there is not was to figure that out for sure before incurring the expense. Then I guess I also need either the SunTouch or IntelliCom to control the speeds.
    Roughly 15x30 IG Gunite/Diamondbrite, 14,000 gallon
    Heliocol Solar 7(4x10) panels w/Aqua Solar controller, Intelliflo 4x160 pump, Hayward C1200 filter, Autopilot DIG-220 w/SC48 SWG, The Pool Cleaner sweep

  16. Back To Top    #16
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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    TDH goes up with increasing pump speed and down with decreasing pump speed. Basically the faster the pump the faster the water moves, the faster the water moves the more friction/turbulence there is resisting the flow.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  17. Back To Top    #17
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve
    Ok, so just for my education , according to what I am reading TDH is comprised of both Vacuum and Pressure friction losses. It looks like Vacuum loss does change based on pump size, but it did not seem to indicated Pressure loss changing as well. The formula seemed to be fixed at filter pressure x 2.31 and that alone gets me > 40. But I guess you are saying that number decreases as well at lower rpm.

    As speed increase, the filter pressure will go up and thus return head loss increases. So both vacuum and return head loss increases with increasing pump HP or RPM,

    Looking at the VS pump curve here (on page 4). it is very close to what you say, it looks like it will do a maximum of like 40' of head at 40GPM. So I think I am correct in my 'worrying' that over 40' of head at 40GPM I need to bump up to next speed. but I guess the big thing I am/was missing is my system may well have LESS than 40' of head at 2300RPM? If that is right then we are saying that the VS should be able to run my system with solar on at 2300, bump it up to next speed if I need for cleaning, and 'maybe' bump it down with solar off? Is that about right?

    I doubt you will have less than 40' of head at 40 GPM. That would require larger pipe than you have. Remember that this pump is a variable speed which means you can change it to any speed not just the ones shown on the head curve. So if 2300 is too low, 2400 may work just fine.

    Too bad there is not was to figure that out for sure before incurring the expense. Then I guess I also need either the SunTouch or IntelliCom to control the speeds.
    The pump will definitely work for solar. The only real unknown is which speed to use. My initial guess is 2300 RPM but that should not vary by much. Given that you have smaller pipe than my pool, your pressure will be somewhat higher so in theory at least, you may be able to run at slower speeds. So I wouldn't worry that the pump won't work because there really is no way that it wouldn't work.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Re: Need new pump quick, mine just died

    Almost every part of a pump can be replaced. There are only 2 moving parts in a pump the
    impeller and the motor shaft. If the motor doesn't run or blows the breaker it could only be a switch
    or the starting capacitor. Even if the whole motor has to be replaced it is a good deal cheaper
    than the whole pump. If the motor does not run you can remove it and take it to a motor shop
    they can very quickly tell you what is wrong with it if anything.

    If the pump leaks, seals are rather inexpensive and can easily be replaced.

    Cliff s

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