Liquidator "WS" Poll

[Rabbit]

I actually use 10% so I went with the 12% option. So far not a single trace of "white stuff" Hoses are still crystal clear.

On a side note. I use to fill my 55 gallon fish tank with a 1/4 inch vinyl line that I would connect to a near by faucet. The line got completed coated with "white stuff" after only a few uses. That was in my old house, the new one has soft water (at least inside). I'm very convinced it's related to calcium content in the water. Without the softener the water is about 16 ppm of calcium.

This doesn't explain why I'm not getting white stuff on my LQ...only thing I can figure is that I'm using 3/8 inch line that has less side wall friction (far less) then the 1/4 inch line. I also use to run pretty high pressures when I would fill my fish tank with the 1/4 inch stuff....again more side wall friction. My current CH is 400 just for reference.

:?

 

[poolhound]

I have visible (but slight) WS in my LQ after about 6 weeks but no buildup on the valves nor in the tubing. Most of the WS is on the valve floats.
I have not seen an accumulation of anything on the bottom of the LQ. I use 6% store brand bleach.
I have 40-50ppm Borates.

 

[Water_man]

I think the results of the poll are meaningless and it should be rerun if we want to learn anything about the correlation between WS and pool chem.
The total of "yes" and "no" votes of this poll is 51% instead of 100%. What does that mean?
That 49% don't know?

As a "WSed" LQ owner whose system is not crippled by it, I suggest that there should be three choices, rather than two:

Question: Do you have WS in your tubing or in the FM or on the "out" float valve?

Answer (choose one) :

1. No
2. Yes, but my LQ is not affected.
3. Yes, and it affects the performance.

In addition, people should display all their numbers, including borates, % bleach,
source of water and any unusual circumctances.

 

[Sabot]

Sorry to hear that you think it's meaningless but I believe it did its job by showing out of 24 owners which responded:

16: Didn't have crippling amounts of the "WS" (67%)
8: Did have crippling amounts of the "WS" (33%)

The poll system on this forum can not handle complex polling. Multiple polls are needed to gather all the detail which you seek. What through off the total tally was the bleach strength survey. Feel free to run some new polls to gather the information.

 

[poolhound]

Looking thru the replies to this thread, of the 10 people who replied with a message, 9 said the WS had no effect on the operation of their LQ. The other 1 did not indicate an effect or not. Does this indicate that the WS is more of a cosmetic problem? I think keithw is the longest user who replied and has not had a problem.
Is it possible to construct a poll with "ladder" questions, eg if Yes to Q-1 then Q-2 if No to Q-1 then Q-3 and so on. If this is possible, I would be happy to correlate the results from the data gathered.
The other option is to go thru the other threads that discuss WS and try to extract data.

 

[Water_man]

16: Didn't have crippling amounts of the "WS" (67%)
8: Did have crippling amounts of the "WS" (33%)

A third with WS problems is a lot, and it's definitely a hot issue. Still it would serve us to know how many users have WS even without performance effects, because it's just a question of time before it might happen. I guess at least another third has WS.

So far we have two different remedial approaches:
Water chemistry (chem geek) and LQ's flow system retrofit (Rabbit.)
We still don't have all the data of water chem including conclusive evidence that borates may help.
If we don't have the time and energy to delve on the subject any further here's
the bottom line of the state of the art for what one should do, unless he's willing to acid- clean the system every three weeks:
Keep pH, TA and CH as low as possible. Add 50 ppm borates as a possible cure, if you want to spend the time and money (although borates may have other "fringe benefits.")
If this doesn't work change the outlet tubing and valve to 3/8" ID and perform surgery on the float valves as per the "Rabbit procedure".
I think this sums it up.

 

[Rabbit]

Just an observation I have made. I'm now getting a ton of crystal (looks like salt) forming on the float sections of my floats. I have no such crystals at all on the actual valve area. Now if I was still running with my reduced inlet flow the water level in the tank would have gone down as the unit runs and I would certainly have crystal forming much much closer to the valves. As it stands now I get far more inlet flow then outlet flow so the water level in my tank stays right at the shut off point.

So to those that are having problems with crystal (or other stuff) forming on the actual valves and causing problems, what's your water level compared to full? If you shut off your control valve do your floats keep rising ? The theory here is the further away you get the white stuff floating on the top from your valve assemblies the less chance you have of problems. So, is your tank staying 100% full after say an hours use?

 

[stage759]

My liquidator has been in operation for 4 months now. When I installed it I covered the tubing with a black plastic automotive shield commonly used to cover electrical wire in an effort to protect the tubing from UV damage. The tubing has turned a milky color, more so on the outlet side rather than the inlet side. The tubing remains soft and pliable to the touch. I have no signs of any chemical build up on or around the floats, valves or flow meter. In addition the flow meter shows no signs of any discoloration or residue build-up. There is however a sediment build up in the bottom of the Liquidator which I disturbed with a paddle, it is white and formed a milky cloud when disturbed and within a short time setteled back to the bottom of the tank. This is what I expected as the claim from the mfg was that solids will settle out of the bleach to the bottom of the tank. (I don't know what they are and really don't care) I have used 6% bleach from Aldi that cost $0.33 per quart. All in all I am very satisfied with the Liquidator up to this point in time. The unit does have some drawbacks but for me the pluses out-number the minus's

 

[Rabbit]

Well I did have some WS forming, it has since all fallen to the bottom of the tank. Nothing at all floating around anymore. That's with 7 gallons of 12.5%.

 

[Water_man]

Well I did have some WS forming, it has since all fallen to the bottom of the tank. Nothing at all floating around anymore. That's with 7 gallons of 12.5%.

Have you had any WS forming on the "out" float valve as shown in this post?.

Your line modification and "in" float valve procedure don't seem to take care of this problem. It hasn't crippled my LQ's operation yet but it may do it soon.

 

[Rabbit]

Well I did have some WS forming, it has since all fallen to the bottom of the tank. Nothing at all floating around anymore. That's with 7 gallons of 12.5%.

Have you had any WS forming on the "out" float valve as shown in this post?.

Your line modification and "in" float valve procedure don't seem to take care of this problem. It hasn't crippled my LQ's operation yet but it may do it soon.

'

I had crystal forming all over the top float..but not the valve. I attribute this to the fact that my water level is always maxed out. The white stuff floats much higher up then the valve.

LOL, did you think somehow the white stuff would just go away with the larger line? The larger line just won't plug up anywhere near as easy as the 1/4 inch stuff. The 3/8 line is 66% larger. That's 66% more surface area and much greater flow.

I really feel the white stuff problem is an issue with the water more so then a flaw in the LQ's design. I've noticed my CA has fallen 40 points since I started to use the LQ, and the white stuff that was forming has all but vanished.

Again I say to people that the vinyl line turning white has nothing to do with the LQ, it will turn white if you run water through it for a few days and stop. Let it dry out and it's white. It's not the chlorine that's causing this. That's not to say the chlorine isn't helping the process along. I've reproduced this with regular tap water with 15-16 ppm calcium and it turns white. Do other things turn it white, perhaps. Bottom line is if regular tap water turns it white...I suspect other things will as well. The common factor...lots of calcium.

I see lots of speculation and no facts...thus I'm doing the same

 

[Guest]

I think that it needs to be kept in mind that the Liquidator is an inexpensive way to add sodium hypo to a pool when compared to peristaltic pumps or SWGs . The fact that 2/3 of the users of this inexpensive device do not have problems says that it is a worthwhile unit for it's price but it is by no means a 'professional' chlorine delivery system.

 

[Rabbit]

I think that it needs to be kept in mind that the Liquidator is an inexpensive way to add sodium hypo to a pool when compared to peristaltic pumps or SWGs . The fact that 2/3 of the users of this inexpensive device do not have problems says that it is a worthwhile unit for it's price but it is by no means a 'professional' chlorine delivery system.

I second that, I've not had to add any chlorination manually to my pool since I purchased the device. It's kind of like getting advice on buying a car, one person might say a certain model is the worse piece of junk on the market while the vast majority say it's the best. Not everyone is going to have a perfect experience with everything in life all the time. My 3/8 line conversion was a way to get the couple of people unhappy with their flow rates a bit more happy...so far I've heard of two successes on this forum. Three if you count me.

I still would like to see everyone happy..just not sure it's possible.

 

[Water_man]

[quote="Rabbit]
LOL, did you think somehow the white stuff would just go away with the larger line? The larger line just won't plug up anywhere near as easy as the 1/4 inch stuff. The 3/8 line is 66% larger. That's 66% more surface area and much greater flow.

Sure. I also thought that with a larger line I will reduce bleach consumption, save on heating costs, cure HIV, and bring world peace... Now let's get real and focus on the real issue, which is how the problem of WS can be worked-around, if not totally eliminated. So far we don't have a non-chemical solution for WS accumulation on the "Out" flow hinges which may hinder its proper operation.

I really feel the white stuff problem is an issue with the water more so then a flaw in the LQ's design. I've noticed my CA has fallen 40 points since I started to use the LQ, and the white stuff that was forming has all but vanished.

What do you mean by "CA"? Perhaps you meant CH? You posted your CH was 400. Is it less now? In case you indeed meant CH: for a pool of your size, changing CH by 40 ppm means the equivalent of more than 9 lbs of calcuim chloride. The amount of the equivalent calcium carbonate is not too much different. This is a huge amount! It's hard to believe you eliminated so much Ca-Carb by depositing it in your LQ. The LQ is supposed to dispense FC, but not to change water chemistry. Please clarify. At the top you said that you have WS, and here you say it all but vanished. Do you see it inside the out flow line?

Again I say to people that the vinyl line turning white has nothing to do with the LQ, it will turn white if you run water through it for a few days and stop. Let it dry out and it's white.

I had vinyl tubing for a while in the "in" side of the LQ. It didn't turn white.

It's not the chlorine that's causing this. That's not to say the chlorine isn't helping the process along. I've reproduced this with regular tap water with 15-16 ppm calcium and it turns white. Do other things turn it white, perhaps. Bottom line is if regular tap water turns it white...I suspect other things will as well. The common factor...lots of calcium.

I see lots of speculation and no facts...thus I'm doing the same
I disagree. We've seen a lot of facts, but maybe not enough. This is a complex system where fluid dynamics and chemistry are acting together, so it's hard to come up with a conclusive solution.
The only "speculation" we've seen so far is chem geek's SI analysis which, IMHO, is good science and predicts what may help.
[/quote]

 

[Rabbit]

What do you mean by "CA"? Perhaps you meant CH? You posted your CH was 400. Is it less now? In case you indeed meant CH: for a pool of your size, changing CH by 40 ppm means the equivalent of more than 9 lbs of calcuim chloride. The amount of the equivalent calcium carbonate is not too much different. This is a huge amount! It's hard to believe you eliminated so much Ca-Carb by depositing it in your LQ. The LQ is supposed to dispense FC, but not to change water chemistry. Please clarify. At the top you said that you have WS, and here you say it all but vanished. Do you see it inside the out flow line?

Yes, I meant to say CH not CA. I have to retest it today, but last test done twice showed 370 vs 400. My LQ has a TON of stuff at the bottom, it's about 2 inches worth of dark yellow sludge. When I refill I end up with the lighter yellow and that dark color about 1/4 way up the LQ. It settles in a couple hours and all is well. The addendum I received with my LQ said something about removing calcium. I'll have to see if I kept it.

I had vinyl tubing for a while in the "in" side of the LQ. It didn't turn white.

Mine didn't either until I stopped using it (removed). Once the water dried out both the inlet and outlet lines were white as white can be.

I disagree. We've seen a lot of facts, but maybe not enough. This is a complex system where fluid dynamics and chemistry are acting together, so it's hard to come up with a conclusive solution.
The only "speculation" we've seen so far is chem geek's SI analysis which, IMHO, is good science and predicts what may help.

I'm sure everyone is on the right track, just nobody appears to have a solid answer.

I have noticed I do get lots of "white stuff" right after I fill with 12.5% (more like 15% as it's filled local @ 18%). The white stuff settles to the bottom in a couple of days. I get white crystals on the floats where they are not in contact with the water, almost like that fake snow you spray on stuff during the holidays. So far I've not had a single problem with the white stuff being a problem. So far it just all ends up on the bottom. With the rate of accumulation on the bottom I'll have to clean out the LQ in less then 6 months. I'll check my CH again today.

 

[Water_man]

I understand, Rabbit, from another post, that you have calcium deposits not only in your LQ. What you've shown so far is in accordance with chem geek's SI analysis:
High CH, TA on the high side and higher % bleach (meaning higher pH in the LQ) -all in favor of Ca deposits. Lowering the pH to 7.2 may help in reducing or even stopping your global Ca scaling.

 

[Rabbit]

I understand, Rabbit, from another post, that you have calcium deposits not only in your LQ. What you've shown so far is in accordance with chem geek's SI analysis:
High CH, TA on the high side and higher % bleach (meaning higher pH in the LQ) -all in favor of Ca deposits. Lowering the pH to 7.2 may help in reducing or even stopping your global Ca scaling.

Ya, I've been in the process of reducing my TA and average Ph to combat this problem. My CH has been falling on it's own. Water changes, exchanges are not enough to account for the calcium drop....so it's going someplace

 

[duraleigh]

Mild Hi-jack here.

Let's assume the WS is calcium (seems like a good bet)

What if we could hang inside the LQ a device that acts similarly to a "sacrifical anode" in a hot water heater. It seems like there would be some type of metal that the WS would find far more attractive than our float valves.

Not sure if it would work or be cost effective but it's food for thought.

 

[Rabbit]

Mild Hi-jack here.

Let's assume the WS is calcium (seems like a good bet)

What if we could hang inside the LQ a device that acts similarly to a "sacrifical anode" in a hot water heater. It seems like there would be some type of metal that the WS would find far more attractive than our float valves.

Not sure if it would work or be cost effective but it's food for thought.

Doesn't zeolite attract calcium ?

 

[duraleigh]

Don't know about zeolite. I'm speculating a metal may be the best bet. Perhaps a 6" X 6" aluminam plate?

The problem will be that high level of chlorine in the LQ will quickly corrode most metals.....not sure about aluminum, tho.

Ideally, something non-metallic may be the best but I have no idea what material that would be.

Of course, this may be an exercise in futility but if I can think of a material that may work, I'll give it a try.