Preventing Liquidator’s white deposit from the horse’s mouth

[Water_man]

Hi all Liquidator users.
The "white stuff" is one of the LQ’s woes as posted, for instance here.
I called David Booker, one of the LQ’s "forefathers", to whom we were referred by Sabot in this post.
According to Booker, the white deposit is the result of the high pH of the water layer at the top of the LQ. The high pH is caused by the diffusion of ingredients from the bleach layer at the bottom (sodium hypochlorite and sodium hydroxide) which is a lot more basic than the pool water.
In order to eliminate the white deposit, the pool water should be kept at pH 7.2.
Accoring to him this is the only way. Pouring the bleach slowly will have no effect.
He said that having the pool water at pH 7.2 is fine. Any comments?

keithw mentioned here that he has no white deposit. Keithw: if you read this, what is your pH?

A week ago I changed my "outlet" tubing to Tygon Ultra Chemical Resistant 2075, because the original vinyl tubing had gotten all white. I assumed it may have happened because vinyl can't resist high bleach level. The flow meter was also white. I was able to get rid of the white stuff in the flow meter by acid wash but the vinyl tubing couldn't be cleaned.

Now the Tygon tubing got white just as the vinyl did, however, after a week's use, the flow meter is clean. As Booker said - it doesn't matter what the tubing is made of. It's still unknown why the flow meter has no deposit.
Cruzmisl : you won the bet! PM me about getting your beer.

Kudos to Sabot for his detailed posts and the link to Booker.

 

[ric]

This is the second year for my Liquidator. The first year I had very little "white stuff" (WS) I was running PH at 7.4 and CH at 70.

This year I have run PH at 7.2 and have raised the CH to 150 I run the pool AT 7.2 to help with the iron stains and also use 3 oz metal magic each week. This year I have got more WS then last year and the liquidator quit working. I also had to clean everything in acid and I replaced the liquidator lines. In five days I have the WS back but the liquidator hasn't quit all together. If I remember correctly the liquidator says to run CH at 100 and CYA at 60 which doesn't work out for to many of us. I don't know if it is the CH the Metal Magic or the CYA below 60 is the problem but my PH has bin 7.2 all this year and I still get the WS.

I guess there is no reason for me to change to the other tubing. If it didn't work for others it probably won't work for me. :-D
Keep the post going we will figure this out.
Ric W.

 

[Water_man]

This is the second year for my Liquidator. The first year I had very little "white stuff" (WS) I was running PH at 7.4 and CH at 70.

This year I have run PH at 7.2 and have raised the CH to 150 I run the pool AT 7.2 to help with the iron stains and also use 3 oz metal magic each week. This year I have got more WS then last year and the liquidator quit working. I also had to clean everything in acid and I replaced the liquidator lines. In five days I have the WS back but the liquidator hasn't quit all together. If I remember correctly the liquidator says to run CH at 100 and CYA at 60 which doesn't work out for to many of us. I don't know if it is the CH the Metal Magic or the CYA below 60 is the problem but my PH has bin 7.2 all this year and I still get the WS.

I guess there is no reason for me to change to the other tubing. If it didn't work for others it probably won't work for me. :-D
Keep the post going we will figure this out.
Ric W.

This is getting more and more complicated, because we don't know what's going on in this system.
Why won't you call Mr. Booker (link given in the original post), tell him your story, and see what he'd say about pH 7.2 that doesn't cut it.

 

[revstriker]

I'm getting very frustrated trying to get my LQ to work. I replaced the tubes last weekend, and I can already see the WS starting to build up. I'm also struggling with the right flow. I replaced the flow adjuster with one from the big box store hoping that would work better. However, if I set it at anything less than half open, when the pump starts up, I do not get any flow. However, the same setting with the pump running is fine.

Today I have a new issue. When the pump shuts off, the LQ water drains through the outlet tube. It eventually gets lower than the outlet valve, and air gets into the line causing my pump to loose prime. It takes between 2 and 3 hours for this to happen. As far as I can tell, the valve is not completely closing. Could be another issue with the WS.

Anyway, after 3 weeks, I still can't get this to work consistently. It's taking more time than just daily testing and adding bleach. I'm about to remove it and go back to the "old" method.

 

[cruzmisl]

I'll collect on my beer and the $25 I spent on the Tygon tubing Who knows what causes it. I'll try a lower pH and see what happens after I replace my tubing.

Rev, take the floats off and soak in a solution of muriatic acid and water (5 parts water 1 part acid) The white shite is causing you to lose a seal. Happened to me last year, an ez fix. When you soak them they should fizz like alka seltzer

 

[Water_man]

Today I have a new issue. When the pump shuts off, the LQ water drains through the outlet tube. It eventually gets lower than the outlet valve, and air gets into the line causing my pump to loose prime. It takes between 2 and 3 hours for this to happen. As far as I can tell, the valve is not completely closing. Could be another issue with the WS.

My flow meter and flow control valve are positioned above the outlet flow valve, and I have never had the system drained through this line after the pump shuts off.
However, I had the same problem as you described at the intake line. I simply reinstalled the check valve and now everything is fine.

 

[chem geek]

Well, I'm disappointed that the LQ has this "white stuff" issue. I was really hoping it would be a good way to automate chlorine dosing (for others; I don't have one since my opaque electric safety cover lets me add chlorine just twice a week).

What I don't understand is why lowering the pH is the only solution. I would think that lowering the saturation index in any way would work, so lowering the TA or the CH should have the same effect, assuming that the "white stuff" is just calcium carbonate. Lowering the TA rather than the pH would reduce the rate of pH rise.

Is this problem only being seen with pools that are saturated with calcium carbonate, so typically plaster pools? I don't like the idea of having the saturation index be too much lower -- I suppose it depends exactly how low it has to go to eliminate the "white stuff" problem. If it's only at -0.3 then that's not so bad but if it's at -0.5 or more then I'd be concerned over very long-term slow possible plaster pitting. Perhaps Mr. Booker can come up with other solutions such as using materials that do not promote scale formation or possibly the use of scale inhibitors (that are not phosphate based).

Richard

 

[Water_man]

If I remember correctly the liquidator says to run CH at 100 and CYA at 60 which doesn't work out for to many of us. I don't know if it is the CH the Metal Magic or the CYA below 60 is the problem but my PH has bin 7.2 all this year and I still get the WS. Ric W.

The Liquidator's manual has only these recommendations as far as the water balance goes, in order to prevent deposits:
CYA 60-80 (why?)
pH 7.2 - 7.6
TA 80 - 100

They don't mention CH but they talk about TDS below 1500 ppm, which is in line
with chem geek's central idea.

I wonder if lowering the TA will do the job for those whose LQ has become inoperative because of the WS.
I think that the progress we've made so far is that water chem plays a role and when a user reports his/her "WS condition" s/he also has to report the water chem as well.
Duraleigh - if you read this, maybe lowering the pH AND the TA will do the job for you.

 

[revstriker]

My flow meter and flow control valve are positioned above the outlet flow valve, and I have never had the system drained through this line after the pump shuts off.
However, I had the same problem as you described at the intake line. I simply reinstalled the check valve and now everything is fine.

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, my meter and control valve are positioned below the outlet flow valve. However, this is the first time that I have had this problem since setting up the LQ about 3 weeks ago. I will look at raising this as a possible solution.

I also had this issue with water flowing back through the inlet valve. I also installed the check valve which worked fine. However, the problem with the outlet valve is that the water continues to drain out of the LQ using the outlet valve. At first, I thought installing the check valve would not make a difference since the water is moving in the "flow" direction already. This morning as I was getting ready for work, another thought crossed my mind. I know from trying to blow through the check valve that there is resistance. This resistance could be enough to stop the flow of water when the pump is off, and there is no suction in that line. So I quickly installed it this morning, primed my pump, and turned it on. I set the pump to shut off at 3pm, and I don't get home until around 6pm. So if the pump does not lose its prime between 3 and 6, I will call this a success for now. If it does, I'll try and relocate the line higher up (which requires me to pick up some more line at the big box store).

 

[chrisexv6]

FWIW, Ive had my LQ running for a little over a month and dont see any WS. Every time Ive checked everything (except the tubing, see below) looks like the day it was installed.

CYA is well below 60 (try 20, MAYBE 30). pH actually rose a little since Ive installed the LQ......its around 7.5 right now. But I have a vinyl pool, and the one time I checked my calcium levels were pretty low (I want to say 100 or 120......the only time calcium is added is when I shock because I use cal-hypo....more convenient than loads of bleach). My TA is at 90.

I do have the white discolored tubing, but I dont see any deposits (knock on wood) on the LQ floats or the flow meter. I recently switched to using 5 gallon jugs of 12.5% bleach from the pool store........when I poured it in I got white stuff floating up from the bottom of the tank. I had the pump off at the time, so I waited a few minutes for the stuff to start to settle back down and then fired the pump up again.

So my CYA is out of suggested range. My pH is also (if you look at the most recent "keep pH at 7.2" statement). That only leaves calcium.....which a few people in this thread alluded to.

If we werent so good at the whole pool maintenace thing, we might be able to find people with 1 of those 3 things "out of range" that also has an LQ and does or does not have ws.

-Chris

 

[JasonLion]

Is it possible to gather up enough of this "white stuff" to do some simple tests to see if it is salt or calcium? Salt should dissolve in tap water, while calcium should foam when you put a drop of muriatic acid on it.

 

[Sabot]

David is the one that told me that the white stuff was excess salt. Maybe I need to taste it to confirm?

I am also running the pH Adjuster. David's thoughts are that having the pH Adjuster in stream of the LQ it will balance the pH as it goes towards the pool. (Unless you are trying to lower the pH via the pH Adjuster. Which I don't do. I use the pH Adjuster to hold the pH as steady of possible. It takes my pH to rise from 7.6 to 7.8 about two weeks. I use Muratic acid to bring it back down to 7.6)

Below are averaged numbers for the month of June 08 log book:

Time of Day: 3pm
Water Temp: 88
Air Temp: 94
TC: 4.26
FC: 3.84
CC: 0.31
pH: 7.71
Alk: 65.22
CA: 339.60
CYA: 62.50

LQ Flow Rate: 19.68 GPH
pH Adjuster Flow Rate: 20.68 GPH
Pool Flow Rate: 81 GPM
Pool Pressure: 16 PSI

Another thing to try if the WS is a bother to your meter and control valve, move it to the intake side of the LQ. (Between the LQ and the filter) I have mine flowmeters there for both the LQ and the pH Adjuster. I do still have the standard flow indicator which came with the unit down stream for testing.)

 

[revstriker]

David is the one that told me that the white stuff was excess salt. Maybe I need to taste it to confirm?

I am also running the pH Adjuster. David's thoughts are that having the pH Adjuster in stream of the LQ it will balance the pH as it goes towards the pool. (Unless you are trying to lower the pH via the pH Adjuster. Which I don't do. I use the pH Adjuster to hold the pH as steady of possible. It takes my pH to rise from 7.6 to 7.8 about two weeks. I use Muratic acid to bring it back down to 7.6)

Below are averaged numbers for the month of June 08 log book:

Time of Day: 3pm
Water Temp: 88
Air Temp: 94
TC: 4.26
FC: 3.84
CC: 0.31
pH: 7.71
Alk: 65.22
CA: 339.60
CYA: 62.50

LQ Flow Rate: 19.68 GPH
pH Adjuster Flow Rate: 20.68 GPH
Pool Flow Rate: 81 GPM
Pool Pressure: 16 PSI

Another thing to try if the WS is a bother to your meter and control valve, move it to the intake side of the LQ. (Between the LQ and the filter) I have mine flowmeters there for both the LQ and the pH Adjuster. I do still have the standard flow indicator which came with the unit down stream for testing.)

Couple of questions: What kind of test equipment are you using to get such precise measurments? My K-2006 only measures FC in increments of 0.20 ppm (I normally only use the 0.50 ppm amounts). Also, if your LQ and PH Adjuster flow rates a calculation, or to you actually ave a meter to measure this? If a meter, what kind is it and where can I buy one?

I'm not understanding what puting the meter on the intake side of the LQ would do. This would not give me a reading of the flow going into my filter.

 

[JasonLion]

What kind of test equipment are you using to get such precise measurements?

He averaged a number of different readings from an entire months worth of water testing. Presumably the individual readings were not that precise.

 

[cruzmisl]

I used a dilute sol'n of muriatic acid on the WS and it foams.....

 

[Sabot]

For testing I use the TF100 test kit, ColorQ Pro and Oakton pHTestr 30.

For flow measurement on the LQ & pH Adjuster, I purchased two flowmeters from Dwyer Instruments, each was around $25. (See the above link to my post for further details) For flow measurement on the pool side, I purchased a Blue-White F-300 from eBay for $30.

While talking to Mr. Booker, he stated he installs his control hardware (i.e. meter valve and flow indicator) upstream from the LQ & pH Adjuster. When HASA went to get the LQ cert in the pool industry, they move the control hardware down stream. Mr. Booker did not know why at the time. The idea is, if you keep your control hardware up stream of the LQ you won't have any of the salting issues with them.

 

[smuggs]

I cleaned all my tubing, valves, and flow meter yesterday morning using muriatic acid and water mix (about a 1 to 4 ratio). When dipping the valves in the bucket, I didn't seem to see foaming...the deposits just seemed to "melt away". When done cleaning everything, I dumped the remains (I used a 10 lb calcium hardness bucked from Leslie's, so it was a pretty small bucket) in the LQ and the deposits that were on top either disappeared or dropped down. As of last night, I had no deposits on top. I will continue to monitor the deposits over the course of this week. Perhaps one solution is to pour a small amount of a muriatic and water mix in the LQ on occasion to keep the deposits in check. Since I can't accurately measure the pH, I'm going to assume that the amount that I poured in can't have lowered the pH by much.

 

[JasonLion]

Adding muriatic acid to chlorine is not a good idea. They tend to react, releasing poisonous chlorine gas. This is not an issue at the concentrations found in pool water, but inside the Liquidator the concentration will be far higher. Throughly rinse any LQ parts in water before treating with muriatic acid.

It makes sense to me that the WS would be calcium. I can't imagine any way to keep from reaching calcium saturation inside the LQ. Anything downstream from the LQ is going to be at risk for calcium scaling until you get to the main pool pipes and the bleach gets diluted dramatically. Calcium doesn't tend to deposit on flexible tubing all that much compared to other surfaces. But the valves and meter would be prime spots for calcium scaling. Putting them on the upstream side should solve a good part of the problem, though the tubing will still be at some risk.

If the WS is salt then the rules are a little different. But I can't see how it could be salt. The salt should either remain dissolved or deposit in the bleach layer. Once salt gets into the pool water layer it would be at much lower concentrations and would not be near saturation. The LQ patent specifically says that salt stays in the bleach layer. Turbulent filling could change that, but even then any salt in the pool water layer should dissolve.

 

[revstriker]

The idea is, if you keep your control hardware up stream of the LQ you won't have any of the salting issues with them.

If you keep your control valve and flow meter on the input side, you won't have any salting, or any WS, but you will also have no control over the flow going out of the LQ into the pool, which seems to be the point of both devices.

 

[revstriker]

Update:

I had a problem with my LQ draining out of the outlet valve when the pump was shut off. It would drain to the point of the outlet valve, and then let air into the line. It looks like the valve isn't completely closing when the float goes all the way down. The air would work it's way into my pump and the pump would lose prime.

My first try at fixing this was to install the check valve. Even though the valve allows flow in the direction to the pump, there is a bit of resistance which I thought might solve the problem. It was only a partial fix. It still allowed water to flow through into the pump, but it did not allow any air to pass so my pump did not lose prime. However, the water level in the LQ would fall below the outlet valve, and air did get into the line. As soon as the pump turned on, it started sucking this air into the pump. Since the water level was below the outlet valve, it continued to suck in air until the water level rose high enough.

My next try will be to re-route the line up higher than the LQ to see if that prevents the draining issue. However, since the pool level is lower than the LQ, I'm not sure if this will work as I believe it would still drain with a siphon effect. But I will give it a try as it is the last thing I can think of to get this to work. If this doesn't work, then the LQ will end up in the garbage.