New Pool Build (Another One) in Allen, TX

[bhargraves]

YET ANOTHER UPDATE!: Well, we chickened out about not putting in a spa, and decided to add one. That caused a few other minor changes. We also decided to go with Travertine for the decking instead of stamped concrete. Pool perimeter changed to 111 ft. Spa is 8.5x5 with a tiered spillway, an Intellibrite LED, 400k BTU Pentair MasterTemp Heater, and 2HP Silencer Blower. We also removed one bench that we deemed to be a hazard for kids jumping off the spa, and increased the max depth to 6'. Permit and HOA docs have been updated. I *think* we are done making changes.




Spa spillway will look something like this (except concave):

... to match the back wall, which will look something like this:


====================================================================
UPDATE!: We've selected a PB, finalized a design, and signed a contract. We are now going through permits, HOA, etc. Hopefully we'll start to dig soon.

Thanks to everyone who pitched in suggestions and offered guidance so far!

Here are the details:
Perimeter: 107ft
Dimensions: 41ft x 24'10"ft
Volume: 21,769 gal
Surface Area: 645ft2
Decking: Likely 682ft2 (stamped concrete); light colored; ashlar pattern
Coping: Oklahoma flagstone
Back wall: Dry stack flagstone; 3 x 24" scuppers; 12", stepping down to 6" at ends
Stonescapes MiniPebble Interior (Aqua Cool color)
Large Tanning ledge with 3 bubblers
Pentair Quad 100 DE filter
Pentair Intelliflow 3050 VS Main Pump
Pentair WhisperFlow 1.5HP Pump for Scuppers
Polaris 280 with booster
2 x Pentair Intellibrite 5G LED lights
Pentair IC60 SWCG
Pentair Intellichem + Acid Tank (for acid distribution with feedback, mainly - I know, this is a more $ option than IntelliPH)
Pentair EasyTouch 8 + Screenlogic 2

Here are some pictures of the final design:

====================================================================
ORIGINAL POST:
I discovered TFP a few days ago, and it truly is a wealth of information. Thanks to everyone who posts and provides guidance and feedback, etc.

Now, my first post ... here it goes.

We are planning to build a pool over the next few months. This will be our second pool. The first was a free form in SW Houston area. Tropical landscaping, boulders, salt water chlorine generator, etc. This time around we are north of Dallas, where tropical isn't so much the norm. So we are planning to go in a slightly different direction.

Here are the basics of the design we've considered so far.

Free-form IG gunite/plaster pool only (no Spa)
Perimeter 99ft
Dimensions: 39ft x 21.5ft
Volume: 20,484 gal
Surface Area: 575ft2
Decking: Likely 550-600ft2 (stamped/textured concrete) + 132ft2 patio overlay; LIGHT colored; block pattern
Coping: Oklahoma
Back wall: Dry stack flagstone; 3 x 3ft sheer descents; terminated by 18" columns
Large Tanning ledge with 1 bubbler (considering adding 2 more bubblers)
Jandy 60ft2 DE filter with sight glass on backwash line to P-trap
Backwash valve = Jandy NeverLube
Jandy 2HP VS Pump
Jandy PS4 Controller with remote
Polaris 280 with booster
2 x 500W Jandy incandescent lights
PowerClean in-line chlorinator (also included QuikPure Ozonator w/ UV lamps, but likely will remove to save cost)
Minimum 2" suction and 1.5" return lines
Kid Fence or Wrought Iron Fence

So, now for things in question:

I have read a lot of recommendations for ditching the Polaris 280 + booster in favor of 360 or The Pool Cleaner. But, would 1 2HP VS pump be enough for pool + polaris + 3 bubblers + 3 3ft sheer descents?

I liked out SWG in our first pool (which we owned for only 3 yrs), but I've heard horror stories about salt damaging decking, equipment, etc. Thought on in-line chlorinator (monthly cost vs startup cost of SWG, long term damage to decking and hardwood floors (inside), etc)

To Pebble Sheen, or not to Pebble Sheen? That is the question.

Another other concerns/issues/questions about the design?

I hope these pictures work:
2D CAD:

3D Rendering:

I am planning to meet with a couple more builders, and I plan to roll any feedback into the other meetings / designs.

Thanks in advance!!

 

[tracyne]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

Looks great! Love the long bench along the back.

Definitely Pebble Sheen!

 

[bhargraves]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

Thanks! We have 3 little kids, so they'll really like the long bench and water features.

For the Pebble Sheen, PB is asking for a little of $2k extra vs plaster. We plan to live here for a long time. Is there a long-term financial benefit for Pebble Sheen vs plaster? For a pool this size, is $2k reasonable?

Another thing we were not completely sure about are the 18" columns to terminate the wall behind the pool. But, I couldn't really think of a better option, and maybe we could put an urn/planter on top of each one or something. We are considering extending the wall a little longer than they put it on the design. We also are going to extend the patio a bit at the right side of the pool.

For fencing, I think we are leaning towards child fence so it can be removed easily.

I forgot to ask about in-floor cleaning. Any strong opinions for or against out there? One con is definitely $$.

 

[BoDarville]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

Welcome to TFP!

For the Pebble Sheen, PB is asking for a little of $2k extra vs plaster. We plan to live here for a long time. Is there a long-term financial benefit for Pebble Sheen vs plaster? For a pool this size, is $2k reasonable?

From a longevity standpoint, Pebble Sheen should last 2-3 times longer than plain plaster. Most of the bids for a resurfacing job that I have seen run between 6-10K. If it were me, I would spring for the Pebble Sheen now as the incremental cost is comparatively minimal. Another factor is that many areas around DFW have been under some form of water restrictions for over two years straight now, so I would assume that these restrictions (in varying degrees of severity) will become a permanent way of life. Under the current restriction stage, draining & refilling a pool is technically prohibited and, at the very least, you may need to apply for a variance since the pool will need to be drained for a resurfacing. Regardless of which way you go, maintaining proper water chemistry will enhance the longevity of any pool surface.

I forgot to ask about in-floor cleaning. Any strong opinions for or against out there? One con is definitely $$.

I am not a fan of these at all. The extra up-front $ is one drawback but, for me, the biggest drawback is the ongoing maintenance. You will have all that extra plumbing under the pool that is unnecessary for properly operating and maintaining a pool. Plumbing under the pool is more difficult and expensive to service should you ever have a problem. The only plumbing that should be under the pool is the main drain. Plumbing aside, repairs on in-floor cleaning parts tend to be expensive. Here's one example: In-Floor Cleaning System Repair. I would definitely recommend a separate pool cleaner (pressure-side, suction side, or robot) over the in-floor system. For comparison, my Polaris 360 (pressure-side cleaner) has been in the shop for service once since I have owned the house and the repair bill was ~ $50. Aside from that, I have replaced the backup valve (also $50) and the occasional hose section and related fittings. It is 15 years old and still functions fine.

While we are touching on the subject of plumbing, I would stipulate that no plumbing is to be run under the pool unless it is functionally necessary. For most pools, the main drain is the only function that requires this. Some contractors use the "direct plumbing method" which means they will run any plumbing under the pool if that is the most direct route. You want as much of the plumbing as possible to be relatively easy to access if it ever needs servicing.

If there is one bit of advice to leave you with, it's this: Keep an eye on future maintenance as you spec out your pool. You want to strive for the simplest design that will provide you with the features you desire.

 

[duraleigh]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

I want to add my voice to what BoDarville said about in-floor systems.

Experience here on the forum has shown that they have some limitations from the beginning and are a real PITA to get repaired if they break.

Of course, we don't see posts from folks whose systems are running just fine so that skews our information.

Overall, I think the cost/benefit ratio of inground cleaners may make it questionable. Others will chime in with systems that are working well and I will not disagree with that.....I do not have a system so am only reporting general anecdotal evidence from here on the forum.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

I had an in ground cleaner that worked ok ... back well before I found this sight. Another downside to the added initial cost is that you have to run a large pump at high speed most of the time for them to work correctly and this uses a lot of electricity. You can save a lot of money running a dual speed or variable speed pump at low rpm, but then the floor cleaning is ineffective.

Bottom line, I would not get one again even though I had no problems with it. Besides always having dirt collect in a few places that required brushing or vacuuming.

 

[bhargraves]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

Thanks for the advice. I think I will skip the in-floor. It seems that pool builders are really starting to push them around here, and I assume the markup is pretty substantial. The maintenance was something that I was also worried about.

As for the comments on plumbing, the PB that we have met with so far goes with direct plumbing (with plumbing running under the pool). They are a pretty reputable PB around here, and have been in business since the 70's. When they talked about their plumbing method, this was something I mentioned as a concern, but their pitch was that running pipes outside the pool very often leads to pipes getting damaged by digging, etc, and that running them under gives them added protection. I'm not sure if they are cutting cost here or if they truly believe this method is better.

 

[jamcha02]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

I'd have to disagree with all the negative comments about the in-floor cleaners. I have personally viewed and spoken to many owners in the DFW area regarding these systems, and most people love them.

The primary issues you will find with many people that have issues is that the builder is not experienced on how to properly install the system. 3" suction lines, 2" returns, and variable speed pumps are the best way to do these properly.

As far as plumbing. Saying that the only plumbing under the pool should be the main drain is a bit dated.. While failures could occur, they are EXTREMELY rare. We have all kinds of plumbing in the foundations of our homes that operate for 50+ years with no issues.

You are MUCH more likely to have issues with the plumbing outside of the pool with ground movement. In floor plumbing is encased in gunite.

As far as repairing in-floor systems, almost every infloor company warranties all the parts for life. My system is by A&A. If I have an issue with ANY part, I call them and they send me a new one. As far as being complicated or difficult to repair, that statement couldnt be further from the truth.

There is the valve to control the in floor system - this is a 300$ part - covered for life - very easy to repair
The heads themselves take all of 3 minutes to replace with a very simple wand tool
Finally, the leaf cannister, located at the equipment pad will most likely never have an issue. But if it did, very easy to replace.

As far as running a large pump at high speed all the time, this is also not my experience. The in-floor systems run on low MOST of the time with a 2-3 hour cleaning cycle (high speed) run every other day.

I really dont understand all the misconceptions on these in floor systems. They require very little maintenance and are very easy to repair. The technology has come a long way in the past 5 years.

Just my 2 cents

 

[linen]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

Welcome to tfp, bhargraves

PowerClean in-line chlorinator (also included QuikPure Ozonator w/ UV lamps, but likely will remove to save cost)

Good call on eliminating the Ozonator and uv, they are not needed for a typical outdoor residential swimming pool. As to the "Powerclean in-line chlorinator", make sure you have a regular chlorination plan that does not include this since it is a trichlor puck feeder. See this pool school article: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/types_chlorine_pool

 

[bhargraves]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

As to the "Powerclean in-line chlorinator", make sure you have a regular chlorination plan that does not include this since it is a trichlor puck feeder. See this pool school article: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/types_chlorine_pool

Hmmmm ... interesting. It says liquid bleach or SWG are the best options.

Liquid Bleach: How much are we talking here? A gallon per week? Per month? That could get unwieldy if large amounts are needed.

SWG: I keep hearing these horror stories about disintegrating flagstone coping, decking, hardwood floors inside the house (which we have by the door), etc. I liked the SWG we had in our previous pool, but I do remember having to add acid like there was no tomorrow. Any concerns about the corrosive nature of salt?

 

[linen]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

Hmmmm ... interesting. It says liquid bleach or SWG are the best options.

You are correct.

Liquid Bleach: How much are we talking here? A gallon per week? Per month? That could get unwieldy if large amounts are needed.

There is no "typical pool" but in the middle of the summer (high temps and high sun on the pool), it would not be uncommon for one like yours to use a 1/2 gallon of 8.25% bleach per day. One way to make this less work is to use a more automated bleach dosing system using a Stenner (peristaltic) pump or a Liquidator.

SWG: I keep hearing these horror stories about disintegrating flagstone coping, decking, hardwood floors inside the house (which we have by the door), etc. I liked the SWG we had in our previous pool, but I do remember having to add acid like there was no tomorrow. Any concerns about the corrosive nature of salt?

Most of the problems I have read about have been with the flagstone down in the Texas region, seems like the typical flagstone is softer there. Some folks down by you have had luck with sealing it, but others have not.

 

[bhargraves]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

Unfortunately that is what we'd be looking at - Oklahoma flagstone in the Dallas, Texas region. But, I am not sure that daily bleach adding is for me. With a DE filter I will be backwashing on a regular basis. I am wondering if that will be enough to keep the rise of CYA at bay.

Has anyone out there built a pool with Riverbend Sandler (in DFW area) and had a bad experience they want to share (either publicly or PM)?

 

[linen]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

With a DE filter I will be backwashing on a regular basis. I am wondering if that will be enough to keep the rise of CYA at bay.

Very unlikely, it would take an excessive amount of backwashing to remove enough water to make a dent in the cya that you will put in the pool if you use trichlor. Also, as your cya gets higher, you will need to use more trichlor daily to hold the required higher FC level...it really is a recipe for disaster. Algae as a result of high cya is the number one problem that new posters come on here with, especially in your climate (pool open year round).

As to adding bleach daily, most folks find that it is not a big deal. If you find that you can't dose daily reliably, and since a swg may not be your best choice due to the flagstone, then you may want to look into the aforementioned Liquidator or Peristaltic pump to automatically dose the pool.

 

[SKC]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

Unfortunately that is what we'd be looking at - Oklahoma flagstone in the Dallas, Texas region. But, I am not sure that daily bleach adding is for me. With a DE filter I will be backwashing on a regular basis. I am wondering if that will be enough to keep the rise of CYA at bay.

Has anyone out there built a pool with Riverbend Sandler (in DFW area) and had a bad experience they want to share (either publicly or PM)?

We just finished a pool with RBS and had a great experience. Have had no issues and our Super was very easy to work with. Feel free to send me a PM if you have specific questions.

 

[bhargraves]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

I am struggling with decisions here. I've gotten 1.5 bids so far. Still need 1-2 more.

The first is a reputable PB in the area, who does as lot of pools each year. Their bid is pretty good, and they are offering some pricing incentives this time of year. We are happy with the design, and the designer.

The second is a smaller company in the area, but one that has been around since the 80's and generally well reviewed. They build 50-60 pools per year. Their price will likely come in 15-20% higher than the first PB. However, they use 10-12" walls vs min 6", shotcrete vs gunite, 1/2" rebar vs 3/8", and offers lifetime warranty on stonework even if we install a SWG (stone concerns are making me hesitant to put in a SWG, so this is important for me). Their owner is known to be very involved, and communication is supposed to be good. However, their sales/design people are much less experienced, and we like the sales/design guy a lot at the first PB.

Questions:

1) Are 8-12" thick walls a significant improvement vs 6" minimum, or is this a don't-care
2) Is 1/2" vs 3/8" rebar something I should care about?

Thanks!

 

[duraleigh]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

I wouldn't find either one very significant.

 

[jamcha02]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

The other question you should be asking is plumbing size. One of the builders you discuss uses double 3" inch suction lines and 2" inch returns. Most other builders in north texas are 2" and 1.5"

Who is the first builder?

 

[bhargraves]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

Good point, jamcha02. That is another key difference.

 

[bhargraves]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

Who is the first builder?

RBS

 

[SKC]

Re: New Pool (Planning Stage) in Allen, TX

bhargraves, if you do decide to go with RBS, let me know.