Advice on equipment needed

[zimm27]

We are getting quotes for a pool and I have a few questions for anyone that has the time to chime in.

Pretty consistently the pool discussed is about 20,000 gallons, 90-95' perimeter, 3-4 water spillways from a back wall, Jandy equipment with a DE (60 gal) filter and a Polaris 280 cleaner, light. No spa. What differs is listed below:

Pool builder A recommends a Jandy 2.0 HP variable speed e-pump with a PB4-60 booster pump for the Polaris. iAqualink (no model stated) capable controller, and having the water features powered by the main filter pump

Pool builder B recommends a Jandy 2.0 HP 2 speed pump (no model given) with a Halcyon pump for the Polaris (quieter but worse reviews than PB4-60?), a separate Jandy WaterFeature pump for the water features, and a Jandy iAqualink Z4 controller. Only 4 functions probably all used up so none available for a heater if we put one on?

Pool builder C recommends a Jandy 2.0 HP variable speed e-pump with a PB4-60 booster pump for the Polaris. Aqualink RS8 panel with iAqualink (no PDA), and also having the water features powered by the main filter pump.

Obviously some differing opinions. Some say the water features need a dedicated pump, some dont. Some say a variable speed is better than a 2 speed, some say the 2 speed is better. I am sure all of them will work but I guess my concerns are with getting a good, reliable equipment set with low run costs. Any wisdom you can share with me?

 

[BoDarville]

Welcome to TFP!

Some say a variable speed is better than a 2 speed, some say the 2 speed is better.

Since variable-speed (VS) pumps cost significantly more than 2-speed pumps, one of the factors you need to consider in determining which of these is the better choice for you is your electric rate. Generally speaking, if your electric rate is less than $0.20 per kWh, the 2-speed is the more cost-effective choice. Two-speed pumps are also simpler than variable-speed (VS) pumps, so there is less to break down. OTOH, VS pumps will give you more flexibility in optimizing speeds which may allow you to run everything from one pump. Another thought...Have you considered a Polaris 360? This cleaner does not require a booster pump.

 

[duraleigh]

Welcome to the forum.

Have you considered a robot instead of the Polaris 280? It eliminates the booster pump cost, some plumbing costs and will save quite a bit on electricity when you clean your pool.

 

[zimm27]

Regarding variable speed vs 2 speed, I admit the flexibility of being able to lower the speed of the pump and adjust that as needed to get the most efficient run cycle sounds like a good thing. That being said, the pool builder will probably set it at a good run rate anyway...and I doubt I will be monitoring run times and electricity rates closely enough or know enough about flow rates and efficiency to really make any use of it. Our electricity rate has hovered around 7-9 cents per kWh for the last few years so that would indicate the 2 speed is not a bad choice. When I look on the Jandy cost calculators though, of course the variable speed ones tell me it will save me about $1k/year in run costs, which is hard to ignore. How do I figure the 2 speed is better for me, and are there any resources you can point me to that indicate this?

I also would be tempted to pay a bit more up front for something even the slightest bit more efficient in the long run - unless this is just a bad idea. I'd rather do it "right" up front than skimp and save a little money now.

For the pool cleaner - the 280 seems to be a simple, rock solid choice that everyone seems to own for years and years without issues. Looking at the 360/380 they seem to have more problematic internal workings and break down more. Aside from the cost of a booster pump, is there a reason you think I should look at the 360?

Regarding the robot cleaner - I looked at those but there are two issues I keep coming up against:
1) You have to go out and throw the robot into the pool each day to clean it, wind up a cord, etc - when a polaris can just stay in the pool and run whenever it wants
2) Plugging in an electrical device and then throwing it into a large body of water just seems kind of wrong on a level that I don't think I can mentally get past

With a main pump, booster pump, water feature pump, and LED light, my understanding is the iAqualink Z4 has 4 relays on it so it'd be maxed out. We had toyed with the idea of a chiller in the future and the ideal situation to be able to set a temp on iAqualink and have it just turn on the chiller when necessary. I have been told though that chillers are more of a manual on/off kind of deal or have to run with the pump which is unfortunate though. Would a Z4 be a limitation if we did add a chiller? Even if it is a manual on/off thing I would think there could be 2 relays - one to turn it on and off and a second to actuate a valve to bypass the chiller if it would not pass water through it when not running. Maybe I am making this too complex though for something we may never buy. A new controller at that point may not be as big of an expense.

Thanks for all the advice so far, look forward to your responses!

 

[RobbieH]

Keep in mind the robot runs on a low amperage 12v supply, not the 120 out of your outlet.

A pressure side cleaner is good for leaves and large debris, a robot is better for small stuff and will clear water rather than just remove leaves. A suction side is somewhere in the middle, but puts additional load on your filter. I believe "The Pool Cleaner" pressure side cleaners also do not require an additional pump, and get excellent reviews.

 

[mas985]

Ditto on ThePoolCleaner. It is a great cleaner and doesn't require the booster. Also, if you want to go with the ePump, I would go with the JEP1.5 instead of the JEP2.0. No need to go with the larger pump without a spa.

Otherwise a two speed would fit your needs quite well and would probably have a lower lifetime cost. The JEP is more efficient and might save more energy but at your electrical rate, it may end up having a higher lifetime cost. VS pumps are very expensive to fix and have a higher probability of failure because of the electronics.

The calculators used on the manufactures sites are always overly optimistic on savings and they usually compare the VS pump to a single speed large HP pump which is not a fair comparison. But the energy savings of a two speed is nearly the same as the VS assuming they are operated similarly.

I have a spreadsheet in my signature that you can download and is a bit more realistic than the calculators found on the manufactures web site.

 

[zimm27]

So it sounds like it really is a tough choice between a variable speed and a 2 speed, even with money not being an object (at initial purchase) due to the perhaps lower operating costs of variable speed being washed out by the higher likely failure rate. Bummer. I admit to still lean towards the variable speed for lower operating costs and flexibility but this really has me thinking. I will look through your spreadsheet and see if I can make heads or tails of it, specifically to compare the Jandy models. Everyone seems to offer a 2.0HP pump rather than 1.5HP so I don't know if my pool requires it for some reason or if it is an upsell. I would imagine with a 2.0HP variable speed I could run it at a lower speed and get the same efficiency from it vs a 1.5HP run a bit faster?

Any comment as to use of a separate water feature pump? Good/bad?

On the cleaner front, I admit to knowing little about them and the idea of having a separate pump seems to mean you can run it a different schedule than the filter pump (is this good/bad?) as well as being able to have more power to it. I don't know how any of that equates into actual cleaning prowess. It seems the builders I am working with offer Jandy so I imagine I will end up with a Polaris so I can have them deliver a pool as a whole package to me - I am curious about the ThePoolCleaner though, does not have a tail so might not get into corners as well? We do not have trees around the pool but intend to put evergreen type plants around it - so some debris may make it in. If the pool robot didnt have to be put in and taken out manually I might even consider it in spite of feeling like i would be swimming with a plugged in toaster (I know - lower voltage).

I know all this stuff can be replaced down the line (at much cost) if I learn that an additional speed setting or better cleaner is needed, I just would like to avoid any issues upfront and possibly have the plumbing prepared for any possible changes without requiring running new lines. Seems having a pressure side cleaner with the plumbing put in would prepare me for either option down the road? I would also assume that these builders are recommending the products largely because they know it will lead to a happy customer - I am just beginning to learn about them myself.

 

[mas985]

I would imagine with a 2.0HP variable speed I could run it at a lower speed and get the same efficiency from it vs a 1.5HP run a bit faster?

Yes, they are about the same but I believe you can get the JEP1.5 for a little less money and if you don't need the 2.0, then why get it.

Any comment as to use of a separate water feature pump? Good/bad?

it depends on the water feature and the amount of flow rate it requires. It it can't be handled by the VS, then you may need another pump.

On the cleaner front, I admit to knowing little about them and the idea of having a separate pump seems to mean you can run it a different schedule than the filter pump (is this good/bad?) as well as being able to have more power to it.

Actually, you have to run the main pump with the booster because they are plumbed in series. There is really no benefit at all to a booster.

 

[zimm27]

Interesting - how would I be able to determine accurately enough that I only need a 1.5HP pump rather than 2.0HP when my pool builder says that's what I need?

I had no idea a booster pump was plumbed in series with the main pump - but now the name booster makes perfect sense. Would the water feature pump be plumbed in series as well, or parallel to the filter pump?

 

[duraleigh]

Interesting - how would I be able to determine accurately enough that I only need a 1.5HP pump rather than 2.0HP

Mostly by comparing flow rates of the pumps and the max flow rate of your filter.

From anecdotal experience for years on the forum, I can tell you a full-rated 1.5HP pump is PLENTY for your size pool and perhaps even too much if it is full rated.

I have a 43k pool and my 1.5HP pump is perfectly adequate.

For your pool, I would consider a 1 HP 2-speed for the pool and then a seperate pump for a water feature....depending on how much flow the feature requires.

A bit off the subject, but I would likewise consider a robot rather than a pressure side cleaner.

 

[Isaac-1]

Note you can leave most robots in the pool full time, however this may shorten their lives, it is just a matter of total hours of water / wear exposure, unless you have a particularly poorly sealed model.

Ike

 

[laprjns]

1) You have to go out and throw the robot into the pool each day to clean it, wind up a cord, etc - when a polaris can just stay in the pool and run whenever it wants

Yikes, I'm surprised that no one made a comment on this. Should I assume that is what everyone does? I throw mine in once a week and let it run for around 4 hours.

 

[jblizzle]

I only run mine every few weeks.

 

[zimm27]

Yikes, I'm surprised that no one made a comment on this. Should I assume that is what everyone does? I throw mine in once a week and let it run for around 4 hours.

Please realize I have never had a pool before and am making assumptions on what needs to be done as far as cleaning. I am leaning towards a pressure side cleaner because people seem to recommend them and assumed they needed to be run 8 hours a day like the pump filter (this is also an assumption). My thought was that the robot was going to need the same run cycle etc but just did not require plumbing or a separate pump

 

[jblizzle]

Just depends on how much debris you get in the pool and how clean you want to keep it.

 

[zimm27]

Back to the pump sizing - I am not sure I grasp all of the details in the spreadsheet or how to add in a new pump - can I find all this information on the web? If not - Given .08 per kWh, 20000gal pool, 2" plumbing lines, 2 skimmers, 6 returns, water feature handled by separate pump - and options in the Jandy pump family of variable and 2 speed pumps (2hp ePump, and an unspecified 2hp 2 speed jandy pump mentioned so far) - what would be some aproximate monthly electricity costs? I understand that a 2 speed is more economical to buy upfront but if I pay $600 more for a variable speed and I am saving $20/month in electricity - I break even in 2.5 years and that makes sense to me. Not sure of pump life expectancy but if I could get a 4-5 year or less break even and expect the pump to last that long I might consider it. I have also wondered if a higher HP (2.0) variable speed unit that I ran at lower speeds would prolong the life expectancy and be worthwhile from that standpoint too. Is there a tutorial on finding all this detail to add in a new column to the spreadsheet?

 

[RobbieH]

I run my robot for 3 hours every day pretty much.

 

[mas985]

Back to the pump sizing - I am not sure I grasp all of the details in the spreadsheet or how to add in a new pump - can I find all this information on the web? If not - Given .08 per kWh, 20000gal pool, 2" plumbing lines, 2 skimmers, 6 returns, water feature handled by separate pump - and options in the Jandy pump family of variable and 2 speed pumps (2hp ePump, and an unspecified 2hp 2 speed jandy pump mentioned so far) - what would be some aproximate monthly electricity costs? I understand that a 2 speed is more economical to buy upfront but if I pay $600 more for a variable speed and I am saving $20/month in electricity - I break even in 2.5 years and that makes sense to me. Not sure of pump life expectancy but if I could get a 4-5 year or less break even and expect the pump to last that long I might consider it. I have also wondered if a higher HP (2.0) variable speed unit that I ran at lower speeds would prolong the life expectancy and be worthwhile from that standpoint too. Is there a tutorial on finding all this detail to add in a new column to the spreadsheet?

You change the pump model by clicking in the pump model field and there is a drop down box. You can select the JEP 1.5 or JEP 2.0 for the Jandy VS. But I can help you with the economics.

Pump run time makes a difference so I have to make a few assumptions about how long you would run the pump.

The WFDS-30 is an up rated 2.5 HP two speed pump which is the same as the WFDS-8 which is a 2 HP full rated two speed pump and both have approximately the same max flow rate as the JEP 1.5.

Also, I am assuming the JEPs run at 1000 RPM for low speed because that setting has the highest energy factor. I am assuming that the Whisperflo runs for less time because the low speed setting has a higher flow rate (45 GPM vs 26 GPM) than the JEPs so the Whisperflo will likely need less run time.

JEP 1.5 1 hour on high, 6 hours @ 1000 RPM, 86 kwh/mo, $6.89/mo
JEP 2.0 1 hour on high, 6 hours @ 1000 RPM, 89 kwh/mo, $7.16/mo
WFDS-30 1 hour on high, 3.5 hours on low speed, 124 kwh/mo, $9.96/mo

So you can see that the Whisperflo costs only $3.07 per month more to run. However, the cost difference between WFDS-30/8 and JEP 1.5 is only about $60 so it would take only 20 months before the JEP becomes more cost effective so that is probably the way to go.

http://www.amazon.com/Pentair-WhisperFl ... rds=WFDS-8

http://www.amazon.com/Jandy-ePump-Varia ... ds=JEP+1.5

 

[zimm27]

Okay - so here is what I have done - and let me know if this is realistic:

-Set pool volume to 20000
-Set electricity cost to 0.08
-Set equipment costs by comparing to some online prices I found (not the cheapest but I figure my pool builder is not giving me wholesale pricing either)
-Set the high pump speed to 3000 across the board, minimum run time 1hr, left the target turnovers blank (I assume this is only for cleaner duty), left the plubming curve at .0082 because I do not know what that is
-Set the low pump speed to 1000 for variable pumps and 1725 for 2 speed pumps, minimum run time 3hr (all run hours ended up higher than 3 anyway), left the target turnovers at 1, and left plumbing curve at .0082

Then I went through and selected the various Jandy pumps across the top (making sure the pump costs match up).

Questions:
-How do I find what the speeds of the 2 speed pumps are? I am assuming 3000/1000 are pretty close but I can't seem to find this published anywhere. I assume these are fixed speeds. Can I expect a realistic comparision without this info?
-I am likely going to have a booster pump for my cleaner - do I need to run my main pump on high while cleaning as well?
-The JEP 2.0 SVRS looks to have less efficiency yet somehow ends up cheaper than the matching JEP 2.0. Not sure if this is a data error but wanted to bring this up.

Seems like the VS ones are all going to turn the pool over once in 12.4-12.9 hours, and the 2 speed units will do it in 7.0-7.8 hours. I could care less about the time it takes, just the energy. Maybe I need to look at lower HP pumps like the 1HP units. With a Jandy DEV60 filter, I suppose I am not really at risk of undersizing the pump to the filter with any of these. Unless my RPM numbers are off for the 2 speed units it sems at the end of this we are only talking the difference of a hundred or two hundred dollars total ownership cost 5 years out on any of these.

 

[jblizzle]

Single speed and 2-speed pumps run at 3450 rpm on high. On low they run at 1725.

That is one advantage of the VS is you can run down at 1000 which is more efficient, but the power savings is not that much over the 1725 speed.