Pump finally died.....advice on a replacement please...

[uncledeadly]

My existing pump just finally gave up its last gasp of breath! More like a scream as it got very noisy!....Time for a new one!

Existing is a 1/2 hp Jacuzzi that says "5PH 1 1/2S" on the wet end. So as you can see I have a 1 1/2 inch suction line and the skimmer is approx 25 feet from the pump.

The furthest return from the pump to pool is approx 55 feet ( 1 1/2 " line)

I installed a new filter a couple years ago and its rated at 75 GPM.

From the filter the solar is located approx 10-12 feet above.

I may be installing a SWG in the future so want to consider that in the pump sizing (if it's req'd)

I think that should be enough info, along with my footer info. Can somebody make heads or tails of this and suggest a pump size for this configuration?

Thanks

RR

 

[jblizzle]

Did the pump you have provide adequate flow for the solar? Are you looking to replace the entire pump or just the motor? Can you provide more info off the motor plate?

If you had enough flow, then you could just get a similar motor/pump since that is a pretty smaller HP pump already. You could also consider going with a 2-speed and run on low when the solar is not needed to lower electricity costs.

 

[uncledeadly]

Don't know if the pump was the correct size or not..and have no idea if the solar panels were working optimally....they made hot water but as to whether or not it was max output I don't know....filter pressure went from 9.5 with solar off to 13.5 with solar on, if that helps....now that it's time to change was wondering if I should upgrade to a variable speed pump, I've been reading up a bit on them and am sipping on the kool aid.

That's all it says on the existing pump end of the kit. It says 3450 rpm on the motor end and it's a 1/2 hp.

 

[uncledeadly]

I have been reading a bit more in the hydraulics 101.....i find this waaayyyy confusing!!

I have additional information as well as a question now.

My pool was built probably in the late 70's early 80's and the plumbing is buried underneath concrete slabs so until I decide to do that total reno changing the sizing is not really an option. ALL of the existing is 1.5 inch PVC, I have 2 returns and one suction line with the main drain connected into the bottom of the skimmer basket housing.

My question is with the solar panels.... I have a Goldline AQ-sol-lv controller running the system and when it switches to heat the pressure guage on the filter (sand filter rated at 50 psi and 75 gpm and says that it is a 25" tank) reads 13.5-14 psi from the no heat reading of around 9.5 psi....I read that when priming the panels there will be a pressure build but after the panels fill and the water is returning to the pool from the panels that the "pull" of the returning water should negate this gain in pressure . Or am I way confusing flow with pressure??

With the old pump the vacuum release on the roof would close properly but I did have to do some fiddling with the location of it to get this accomplished (when I first installed the system it wasn't closing and I was getting tiny bubbles returning to the pool).

I have checked the difference in the temp. between the water going to the solar and returning from the panels with an infrared thermometer and it was a noticeable increase....I can't remember exactly but think it was around 10 degrees gain on average.

Can somebody please help me with the correct sizing for a new pump and motor for this setup....I'm dead in the water right now and would like to get the new pump ordered and installed so I can proceed with getting the pool winterized soon.

I'm wondering if it would be possible (or adviseable) to upsize to a 2 speed 1 HP pump that would step up to high speed with the solar on (I believe there's built in relays in the AQ-SOL-LV that could accomplish this) and with solar off run it at low speed.
The other option would be a VFD pump (I've been looking at the Intelliflo) . Can the Intelliflo "communicate" with the Goldline controller to step up when solar is on?

Very confused right now, please help

RR

 

[mas985]

I have been reading a bit more in the hydraulics 101.....i find this waaayyyy confusing!!

Sorry about that. It is fairly technical in nature and I did my best and trying to make it useful for a broad range of audiences.

My question is with the solar panels.... I have a Goldline AQ-sol-lv controller running the system and when it switches to heat the pressure guage on the filter (sand filter rated at 50 psi and 75 gpm and says that it is a 25" tank) reads 13.5-14 psi from the no heat reading of around 9.5 psi....I read that when priming the panels there will be a pressure build but after the panels fill and the water is returning to the pool from the panels that the "pull" of the returning water should negate this gain in pressure . Or am I way confusing flow with pressure??

A 4 PSI rise with solar is pretty normal and reflects the extra head loss in the panels and plumbing of solar. It is true that during priming the pressure might rise slightly above the solar pressure of 14 PSI but not in all cases. It depends on the height of the panels and actual head loss in the plumbing.

With the old pump the vacuum release on the roof would close properly but I did have to do some fiddling with the location of it to get this accomplished (when I first installed the system it wasn't closing and I was getting tiny bubbles returning to the pool).

That just means the pressure is right on the edge. 14 PSI for a two story install would be right on the edge.

I have checked the difference in the temp. between the water going to the solar and returning from the panels with an infrared thermometer and it was a noticeable increase....I can't remember exactly but think it was around 10 degrees gain on average.

That is a little to high for temperature difference. Normally if you have proper flow rate through the panels, you should get only a 3-4 degree rise. Exactly where did you make this measurement (pipe or water)?

Can somebody please help me with the correct sizing for a new pump and motor for this setup....I'm dead in the water right now and would like to get the new pump ordered and installed so I can proceed with getting the pool winterized soon.

I can help but I need a lot more details on the panels. Height, number of panels, dimensions of panels, pipe runs to and from panels.

I'm wondering if it would be possible (or adviseable) to upsize to a 2 speed 1 HP pump that would step up to high speed with the solar on (I believe there's built in relays in the AQ-SOL-LV that could accomplish this) and with solar off run it at low speed.
The other option would be a VFD pump (I've been looking at the Intelliflo) . Can the Intelliflo "communicate" with the Goldline controller to step up when solar is on?

Both are options. For a two speed, the Superflo 1 HP is about as high in HP that I would go and should work fine for your setup but it depends on the details of your setup.

Do you have a specific model number for your current pump?
Are you bypassing any water around the panels?

 

[uncledeadly]

Thanks Mark....I really appreciate the response and help.

I'll try to answer all your questions and explain my system fully...here goes:
All my existing pump says on it is Jacuzzi Spec .No. SU, Pump model number: 5PH 1 1/2S and motor says :115/230V, 1/2 HP, RPM/TPM 3450, SF 1.6, Max amb 40 deg., FLA 9.2/4.1, SFA10.0/ 5.0

Pool is 16 x 32 with 3 foot shallow and 8 foot deep end rectangle. Pump and filter is in garage approx 20 feet from pool skimmer and 2 returns , one half way down pool and then another at the center of deep end (returns plumbed in series , the farthest from the pump is about 50 feet).(edit...(the main drain is connected to the bottom of skimmer housing at pool)

1.5 inch line from skimmer runs into crawlspace then up into garage, through pump then through a 1.5 inch flex line to filter (25" sand filter withe a PRAHER MULTIPORT VALVE (50 psi max psi, 75 GPM rated) from filter through a one way check to the electric valve for solar(Goldline valve actuator GV-24) from there in no heat mode it turns down into crawlspace then back to pool returns....In heat mode it goes to roof directly above (single story roof) with top header pipe elevated approx.15 feet above pump through 9- 4x10 panels then back to a tee that is placed in return line just before it goes back into crawlspace....

To answer your question....no bypass around solar

As I said in a previous post....looking for either a 2 speed or VF pump....hopefully something that will be able to be auto stepped up when solar on.

Thanks in advance for your help and if you need anymore info let me know

RR

 

[jblizzle]

What solar controller do you have? If it does not have the ability to switch the pump speeds, then you would need to get better automation to accomplish the speed changing automatically for solar. A VS pump will not do this either with some advanced solar controller/automation.

 

[uncledeadly]

My controller is an AQUA SOLAR AQ-SOL-LV....I believe it has one or two built in relays and have the ability to add more if req'd.....

Forgot to mention that I may add a SWG if this makes a differnce with pump sizing.

Thanks
RR

 

[mas985]

The controller should step up on two speed.

But my main concern is the temperature difference you measured. Are you sure about that? With solar on, did the flow rate decrease significantly? The panels are plumbed in parallel, correct?

Nothing that you have described indicates that the old pump was not working properly. I just want to make sure we are not overlooking something.

 

[uncledeadly]

I may be way off base with that temp increase ...let's forget about those temp measurements... those are off my head and a long time ago...

 

[mas985]

Ok so on to the next concern. You mentioned that the filter pressure was around 14 PSI and yet you had to do some fiddling with the VRV to get it to close, correct? With a single story solar install, that shouldn't be a real problem unless there was some extra head loss between the filter and the VRV. So is there a check valve after the filter? Can you post a picture of your equipment pad?

BTW, you don't have your location listed so are you in an area with high electrical rates? A VS pump can be a worthwhile investment if you have a fairly high rates. But it is also useful for solar so you can set the flow rate to exactly what is needed for the panels without any guesswork.

 

[uncledeadly]

[attachment=0:1sek9u1p]20131016_090735_resized.jpg[/attachment:1sek9u1p][attachment=1:1sek9u1p]20131016_090748_resized.jpg[/attachment:1sek9u1p]

Trying to attach a couple pics....see if this works ?

Yes the check valve is after the pump so that when everything is shut down nothing flows back through filter....at least how that's how I understood it and plumbed it that way?

Updated my profile to include my location...sorry for not doing this til now...we are currently (no pun intended) being charged on a 2 step system ...step one is $.069/kw/h, and step two is $.10340/kw/h.

 

[uncledeadly]

[attachment=0:2v2y3dw8]20131016_090909_resized.jpg[/attachment:2v2y3dw8]


Sorry for the triplicate pic!!

Here's a pic of the roof solar.... The pump and filter are inside the garage on right side of pic...the vacuum breaker is on the far left ( don't think you can see in pic)just before the plumbing enters solar panel manifold. I had it at the top of the panels thinkingg that it would bleed the air better up there when panels were filling but it would just chatter in that location. After changing it to it's current position no problems, except when filter hasn't been backflushed in a while.

 

[mas985]

Ok, everything is starting to make sense. That type of check valve usually has more head loss than the flapper type of check valve so that may explain why you had some issues with the VRV pressure and the higher than normal pressure you are seeing with a 1/2 HP pump.

So given your setup, here are a few suggestions:

The Pentair Superflo SF-N2-1A 1 HP two speed pump
The Hayward SP2300VSP variable speed pump
The Hayward SP2600VSP variable speed pump

The trade off between the two speed and variable speed is that VS can be optimized for the solar panels while you are pretty stuck with high speed on the Superflo. However, the VS costs a little bit more. But I don't think you can go wrong with any of them and they all should pay for themselves over the life of the pump. The two VS pumps I highlighted are a little cheaper than most so they should have a quicker payoff and should actually have a lower lifetime cost than the two speed at $0.10/kwh.

 

[jblizzle]

Hold up. Not that I would typically disagree with the resident expert Mark .... BUT .... I would NOT recommend you get either of those smaller VS pumps from Hayward.

Now let me explain, so Mark does not hunt me down

You are looking to have your solar control automatically kick up to high speed when solar is running and on low when solar is not needed. This is not possible with those VS pumps because the speed control is built into the motor. Therefore all your timer/controller would be able to do is tell the pump when to turn on and off ... and the built in controller on the motor would change the speeds after a set period of time.

With ANY 2-speed motor, the solar controller should be able to change the speeds if it has the available relays.

 

[mas985]

All good points and there are definitely trade offs with those VS pumps but if you find that solar is running most of the time anyway, then perhaps it would have less of an impact. So for example, if you find that you need solar for at least 4 hours per day on most days, run time on lower speed may not even be necessary.

Also, I read through the AQUA SOLAR AQ-SOL-LV manual and I had thought I read it had a speed step up but it doesn't appear to so it would seem moot anyway.

 

[uncledeadly]

.....OK....now that you two are done squabbling....LMAO.....

Jason: Which VF pump would you recommend, if not those two haywards that Mark had suggested? ....and why?

(I've been looking a bit at the Intelliflo....would this pump be able to communicate with the Aqua solar to change to higher speed when calling for solar? ...or would I just have to set the clock to kick it to a higher speed at certain times of the day with the assumption that solar will be called for?)

Are there different sizes of Intelliflos? If so which one would be appropriate for my setup?

If I'm reading you guys right I could also opt for a two speed pump which would definately have the benefit of going to high speed through the relay in the Aqua solar.....and if running the two spped at half speed for the majority of the day would give a cost savings that would be fairly equivalent with the VS pump ....is the added benefit of being able to trim the pump speed for the solar with the VS pump worth the extra initial cost??

I've been using VS and VF synonymously and don't know if this is correct??

Thanks again in advance
RR

 

[mas985]

The Aqua Solar manual makes no mention of low speed or being able to switch between high and low speeds so I don't think a 2 speed would be any better than a VS with your controller. Initially, I though it did support two speeds but now I don't think so. You might want to read this post: 2-speed-pump-automation-relays-etc-t56782.html

As for a VS being worth it, you can look at the cost analysis I did the Hydraulics sticky but the lifetime costs of the Hayward VS pumps become more cost effective the the Superflo in less than 36 months of operation.

 

[uncledeadly]

In my manual it states: ( and I may be reading this wrong , but I think this should be able to accomplish the two speed switch?)

"A maximum of two High Voltage relays may be added to the AQ-Sol-LV. Order additional relays separately (Goldline p/n "AQ-Relay) The relays are industry standard and are DPST meaning they can make or breakboth legs of a 240VAC circuit."

??

 

[uncledeadly]

Is the Pentair VS 3050 , 011018 too much pump for my needs , and would it be able to "tell " if the solar was on or off? I read somewhere that it has intuitive controls of this sort...or could I or would i have to wire it to the relays from the aqua solar??