First question ever........

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D

DW

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Oct 6, 2013
12
Scottsdale, AZ
Hi folks, just joined the forum.

I have a couple issues I would like to see if there are any answers to. Some background first. I'm a first time pool owner here in Scottsdale, AZ and I absolutely love it! The pool was built with the house in the early 80's but most of the equipment is newer(from the early 2000's). We bought the house and moved in just before summer and for the most part have had a trouble free 4 months. The generic salt cell the previous owner had bought broke at the plastic ring where it screws into the housing( I saw another post where this had happen to someone. Must be the generic cells??) I bought a genuine Ecomatic replacement($$!) but hopefully will have many years of service now. I also rebuilt the Polaris 380. No other issues until now..................

For the past couple days I have had large air bubbles coming from the return lines and the water pressure doesn't seem like it's what it use to be. In addition and more importantly, as of today the water coming out of the Heliocol solar heater is cold and there are gurgling air sounds coming from the solar heating pipe leading to the roof. Yesterday it was working fine. The controller works and Jandy Valve Accuator also works as it automatically opens and closes when the controller is activated.

Coinciding with the large air bubbles in the return lines has been the appearance of many fine bubbles coming out of the pressure relief valve and first swivel joint in the line going to the Polaris 380 so I'm sure they are related. The 1.5 HP sounds fine and I have cleaned the skimmer basket and pump basket. Before the air bubbles appeared nothing was worked on or messed with. They just ....appeared.

Any thoughts about what to look for would be greatly appreciated! My daughter is coming for a visit next week and I would like to get all the issues fixed by then
 
Hi, welcome to TFP! Can you post a picture of the equipment pad? You probably have an air leak on the suction side. One way to check is to turn on the pump and slowly drizzle water over every exposed pipe joint to see if any water is drawn in between where the pipes connect, and make sure the drain plug on the pump pot is snug. Also check that the lid on the pump strainer pot is seated correctly and that the o-ring on the lid is well lubed and in good condition Once the air leak is located and repaired you will need to bleed the air out of the filter and the solar heating system.
 
When was the last time you cleaned the filter? Try a long backwash.

A dirty filter reduces flow rate and pressure so the solar panel vacuum release valve may not stay closed and draw in air.
 
Below are some pics.

I thought about the backwash and did one early this morning, 6 minutes. Pressure dropped to 4 psi.

I tried dripping water on some of the return joints but it was VERY hard to tell if anything was happening as far as water being sucked in, plus i'm not sure how I'll observe the bottoms of the joints. In any case you can see the spiderweb of pipes I have to deal with.




 
You need an extra "[" at the end of your links to show the pictures.

Did you mean that your filter pressure drop by or to 4 PSI. If your filter pressure is only 4 PSI with that size pump, you may have a suction side blockage.
 
Since you backwashed, has the air stopped or been reduced at all or has it gotten worse? Also, is 4 PSI with or without the solar turned on? Does the air stop when you turn solar off?

4 PSI is much too low for that pump and setup so I still think there may be a suction side clog. Or perhaps the gauge is wrong.
 
After the backwash there wasn't any change in the air bubbles. With the solar valve turned 'on' the bubbles are much worse......at least 10 times worse. With the solar valve 'off' the air bubbles are much less active. I have three returns in the pool and 4 in the spa. The only return with bubbles is the one furthest away from the pump.

The spa is getting almost no return water at all even when the directional valve is located in the middle of it's turn(so that the return water is split 50/50). Before these troubles, the return water to the spa was fairly strong even if the valve was at 25/75. You can somewhat see the valve below the Salt Cell wire in the 2nd picture.

I re-lubed the filter basket cover o-ring just now with no affect. I'll try getting a new one tomorrow. This one could be pretty old.

How do you bleed the Heliocol's? I went up on the roof and saw something that looked like a bleed valve. I unscrewed the top and there was a small ball at the top of the tube that I could push downward slightly and then it automatically returned. Is that the bleed valve? if so, I could turn on the pump and press the ball down until water came out. Would that work? No water did when I tried it as described but I only held it down for 4-5 seconds. Didn't hear or feel any air pushed out either for that matter. :)
 

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How do you bleed the Heliocol's? I went up on the roof and saw something that looked like a bleed valve. I unscrewed the top and there was a small ball at the top of the tube that I could push downward slightly and then it automatically returned. Is that the bleed valve? if so, I could turn on the pump and press the ball down until water came out. Would that work? No water did when I tried it as described but I only held it down for 4-5 seconds. Didn't hear or feel any air pushed out either for that matter. :)
Click to expand...
That is a vacuum release valve and should not be messed with. That will automatically purge the air from the panels when solar is turned on. This is what may be leaking air into the system because the pressure is so low, that it is not fully closing the VRV.

But when solar is turned off, AND you purge the air from the filter, does the air out of the returns eventually diminish? This can take some time so be patient.

Also, when you tap the filter gauge, does the pressure change?

Lately, is there any air in the pump basket?
 
MAS985...
What do you mean by purging air from the filter? The sand filter? I've only backwashed 3 times since we moved in last June and didn't purge any air from the sand filter before. Didn't need to .

But here's something interesting; My wife reminded me that everything was fine with the systems on Saturday....Early Sunday morning I did the 3rd backwash and it was after that, on Sunday, that I noticed the bubbles in the return line and no hot water coming out when the solar valve actuator was turned on. In fact, I remember looking at the gauge on the filter after the back was was done and a little surprised to see it read 4 psi. In the previous two backwashes I performed the pressure gauge read 8psi. I just thought that because I backwashed for a longer period of time (6 min vs. 3 min) that I got more gunk out.

So now i'm thinking that some air got into the system during or after the backwash. Is that common? Do you always have to purge the filter after a backwash? I'll read through my Hayward manuel to see what is says but any tips on how to do this would be helpful. The Hayward valve is a Vari-Flow top mount....you can see part of it in one of the pics.
 
Air anywhere in the system originates on the suction side of your system. You seem to be focusing on the pressure side but that is not the origination of an air leak.

I am almost certain you have a suction side leak or partial blockage.....the suction side starts at the skimmers/drain and goes to the pump. That's the source of air leaks.
 
Testing for suction side leaks is frustrating at times. Here are some ideas:

  • Shaving cream applied to pipe joints and valve stems can show leaks by being pulled down where the leak is.
    Pouring water over these same areas can stop the leak briefly - but this method works better when the leak is immediately visible and this may be harder to detect given your situation.
    Taking electrical tape and tightly taping each joint as a temporary leak seal sometimes works - then you can remove the tape one joint at a time to identify the leaky joint.

Clogged pipes are not something I'm very familiar with but there are a lot of people here who can help. One question that hasn't been asked is that if you leave the solar off and wait and the bubbles drop off does the water flow seem normal or still reduced? If still reduced it is possible that there is a clog and that is why your pressure has dropped and the flow has dropped. The high suction on the pump would then pull air in where it could where none was pulled in the unclogged state prior to the partial clog.
 
My advice would be to slow down and troubleshoot your problem. You have reduced flow, low PSI (likely) and air bubbles and all of a sudden you are up on the roof taking apart the vacuum release valve. Sometimes this method introduces more problems in addition your original one.
The manual for your filter and vari-flow shows a recirc position. Place it in the recirc position and see if your flow is back to normal. If so this indicates a filter problem. Also I have always had good results checking for suction side leaks with water. Run a garden hose over each joint, not looking for the water to be sucked in, but looking for your bubbles to disappear. It may take 2 people to do this. Everything you mentioned so far sure sounds like a suction side restriction of some kind. Are you sure all the valves are fully open and set correctly? What about the diverter valve for your solar collector?
 
Ok, Ok, I'll focus on the suction side. :) :)

If the suction side pulls from the skimmer(only one on the side of the pool) and the drain(one in the pool, two in the spa) and then terminates at the pump then there doesn't seem that much to test. As you can best see in picture #3 there are two 3" pipes coming out of the ground with older dark handled gate valves inline which form a U and then tee off to the pump basket. Those two pipes represent the pool suction(left) and the spa suction(right).
I'm not sure what the black Jandy valve or red handled Gate valve do; they might work with running water through the heater??

In any case, I can check the gate valves(I already tighten the nuts with no effect), the joints and my wife is getting a new o-ring for the filter basket lid today.

Come to think of it, I had finally opened the lid on the filter basket on Sunday morning to empty out the debris. It had been put on too tight by myself back in June and I hadn't messed with it since then. So that could be the issue :idea: ...... I know I said I hadn't done anything to the pool equipment in an earlier post but it appears I've tinkered with it. Funny how I don't really connect the actions together. :oops: I appreciate everybody's comments so far.
I'll get the new O-ring on the filter basket lid and tighten that up(with lubricant) and see if the pressure builds up enough to remove the air and force water up to the Heliocol panels. Hopefully yes.

Before I get to UnderWaterVanya's suggestions, I'll try mpnret's suggestion to put the filter in the recirc position ans see if the bubbles disappear.

if that doesn't work, I'll use the hose method, then I'll try the electrical tape method and then the shaving cream method on the gate valves and joints. Finally, I do have a hand held drain auger that I could use to snake out the lines to the gate valves(probably not more then 15 feet for both the skimmer and the spa drains. If these things don't work then I'll have to call a repair guy I guess.

I'll post an update.
 
duraleigh said:
I'll try mpnret's suggestion to put the filter in the recirc position ans see if the bubbles disappear.
Click to expand...
No need really. The filter and multiport are on the pressure side.
Click to expand...
I agree. The only reason I mentioned it someone suggested purging the filter and the op was asking how to do it. It's quicker to just put the valve in re-circ and eliminate the filter.
 
My wife put a new o-ring on the filter basket lid and lubed it up really well. No improvement in the air bubbles situation.
I'll stop off at the HD and get some electrical tape on my way home tonight. Bummer, I was really hoping the o-ring was the issue!
 

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