resource for borax?

[nuklhed]

Seeking direction from community, need resource for generic borax.
Finally got feedback from brand "20 Mule Team", now owned by Dial (soap), which in turn is owned by Henkels. I was sent to two websites which do not exist. Staff barely aware of their own product line. Downsizing in pursuit of economy, all intelligence squeezed out of the system.
AFAICT, all "Boraxo" products are blends, this from Dial source, verbatim: "Dial 02203 Boraxo Powdered Hand Soap 5 lb Box Specifications Capacity : 5 lb Packing Type : Box Weight : 5.60 lb Features A select blend of quality soap and borax that is gentle on hands."
Sent reply inquiry for bulk source, awaiting response.

 

[linen]

Why generic borax (not sure it exists)?

If you have to order online (don't you have walmarts in your area?), then I would go the boric acid route. Dudadiesel is typically the cheapest.

 

[Richard320]

That's boraxo. You want Borax. I just picked up a box Monday at the grocery store.

Ingredients says: Sodium Tetraborate. That's it. http://www.20muleteamlaundry.com/

 

[bk406]

It's getting EXTREMELY hard to find in my area (Massachusetts). Only one little store in the next town over from me has it. And even then its sporadic.

 

[JohnN]

Richard, is that a standard 4.whatever pound box of Borax? It looks larger than the ones I get, which are tall and skinny.

 

[ping]

They have changed their packaging to the tall and skinny boxes and a slightly different color.

 

[Kymberly]

Ace hardware supplied mine. HTH

 

[nuklhed]

I called all over Vegas, nobody carries basic product -- if at all, it's "Boraxo" Not even commercial laundry suppliers to hotels and casinos.
Wiki tells us "sodium tetraborate decahydrate" -- 'cause it attracts (and holds) TEN water molecules. Kinda hard to square that in the mind, knowing most abundant resource is Death Valley, CA. Most curious are nature's ways.
Hate to think of delivery cost if only bulk resource is online. Maybe Ace Hdwe best of all.
Anyone care to hip-shoot quantity for my pool?... approx. 25,000 gal., TDS 800.

 

[nuklhed]

Re: So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

Jeepers boys!! If I calculate my pool right, I get something like 100 lbs of borax required to even get near the 50ppm target.
Can it be said that a little borate offers a little bit of help?... that it's a straight-line relationship?... up to full benefit at 50ppm?
My water already has a big dissolved junk-load. I'd like to sneak up on any additions to it.

-- da nuklhed

 

[linen]

Anyone care to hip-shoot quantity for my pool?... approx. 25,000 gal., TDS 800.

I am assuming you are wanting to add borates to your pool and not just raise ph when needed?

From dudadiesel it would cost you 121.38 total (75 for the boric acid and 46.38 for shipping to las vegas) for 55 lbs of boric acid which would raise your 25000 gallon pool to about 46 ppm borates which is just perfect. There may be other places closer with lower shipping costs.

 

[linen]

Re: So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

nuklhed, now that you have started a thread (which was the right thing to do) about this here, let's have this discussion there.

Posts moved. JasonLion

 

[Richard320]

I called all over Vegas, nobody carries basic product -- if at all, it's "Boraxo" Not even commercial laundry suppliers to hotels and casinos.
Wiki tells us "sodium tetraborate decahydrate" -- 'cause it attracts (and holds) TEN water molecules. Kinda hard to square that in the mind, knowing most abundant resource is Death Valley, CA. Most curious are nature's ways.
Hate to think of delivery cost if only bulk resource is online. Maybe Ace Hdwe best of all.
Anyone care to hip-shoot quantity for my pool?... approx. 25,000 gal., TDS 800.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/20-Mule-Team-Borax-Laundry-Booster-76-oz/20850525

Some of the Las Vegas stores are out, and some have limited stock, but it is available.

 

[VladSI]

How about amazon?

http://www.amazon.com/Twenty-Mule-Team-Borax-boxes/dp/B003Y5AQGQ

 

[FamilyGuy]

Market Basket carries it in Mass Bk46

 

[bk406]

Market Basket carries it in Mass Bk46

Good to know. Only place I found it is at hanefords in uxbridge. Closest market basket is about 10 miles from me in Oxford next to Home Depot.

 

[nuklhed]

Tip of hat to VladSI for Amazon tip. Still packed in case (6) 4-lb boxes, but only $31/case and freight is FREE [isn't that a lovely word?] for Prime members. Whole deal for 4 cases - 96 lbs = $124. Much better, but I'll still keep bangin' the web for a distributor sourced in bags -- seems to me that a-buck-a-pound should be plenty of money. Salt is only 25c and it's even harder to dig up.
Dudadiesel has 55-lb buckets of boric acid ($75 + shpg) but I still have no feedback from community on the chemistry. Is the formula the same, is the effect the same, is the result the same? Who says?

 

[nuklhed]

Re: So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

LOVE the chemistry lesson, ChemGeek. Worth its weight in gold. Reducing the NaCl is especially cool, with the saving on HCl a bonus.
Please extend your comments regarding dosage... haven't seen a formula and don't trust my interpolation.
Now, armed with this unimpeachable knowledge, we can set out to find a local bulk resource for boric acid. Freight from dudadiesel to Vegas is about $50. Ouch.

 

[JamesW]

Re: So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

62 lb boric acid added to 26,000 gallons will raise the borate from 0 to 50 ppm. You can use the pool calculator to find the correct dosage.
calc.html

 

[chem geek]

... but I still have no feedback from community on the chemistry. Is the formula the same, is the effect the same, is the result the same? Who says?

As shown in this post, borax produces the same identical boric acid in the water that boric acid directly added produces. The effects are identical except that using Borax and acid adds some salt. Of course, Borax by itself raises the pH substantially which is why one also adds acid while using boric acid only slightly decreases the pH.

The choice is really about cost and convenience. Generally, borax plus acid is somewhat less expensive, but more weight, two separate things to add to adjust for pH, and increases the salt level somewhat (not an issue). So boric acid is more convenient but somewhat more expensive.

 

[nuklhed]

Re: So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

Thanks again for that feedback. More questions:
I've got to get a test kit, but the selection is confusing. I see the Taylor 2006C has the larger-sized reagents but best price I found is $89 from Amazon, and their description doesn't specify is as "FAS-DPD".
Amazon does have the Taylor 2006, which they do specify is FAS-DPD, and only costs $52
I see the TF-100 at tftestkits.net is NOT specified as FAS-DPD, but is priced in the middle at $68, so I need to know if it is directly comparable to the Taylor 2006C ?
I would like to solve the problem the smartest way and save the dough, but I haven't seen any specifics about size of reagents in the TF-100.
What is the smart move here?... where is the value? Do I really need the FAS-DPD capability?

Still more: I should ask if these reagents weaken over time? With a single pool I'll probably only test once a week, and probably take at least a year to chew thru them all. Perhaps larger quantities of reagents will start giving erroneous results after they get old? I will store them in the bottom of a kitchen cabinet, not exposed to excess heat or moisture. What should I know about shelf life? I see the 18-month warranty at tftestkits.net, which is reassuring.