Aqua Logic P4 electrical installation question

[gworrel]

I just purchased a Hayward Goldline P4 with SWG and the directions call for 220V to the panel. All of my pool equipment is in my garage and it looks like I have 4- 20amp circuits that currently power the pump. blower, and lights for my pool and hot tub. Does anyone know if it is possible to use the 120V circuits that I currently have without running a new line from the house which could be a big expense.

I was hoping to do the installation myself. I have done common household wiring but not a service entrance or 220V wiring. I am replacing a diy control unit (designed by a friend who has since passed away) which used a Lawn Sprinkler timer, relays, and electric Compool valves to switch a common filter, pump, and heater between the pool and hot tub. What I have has worked for many years. I am replacing it to add the SWG and because I have been getting glitchy behavior in switching the valves that has made the auto functions unusable. Rather than try to troubleshoot the "black box" control unit I thought it made sense to switch to a proven unit with the additional features.

 

[JasonLion]

Welcome to TFP!

You can't use the four 20 amp circuits directly, but you might be able to use the existing wire. It depends on what kind of wire was used and how many amps you need for the automation system and everything it is going to be controlling.

 

[Titanium]

gworrel,

Like Jason says you might be able to reuse the existing wire. Or maybe not.

We can help more if you provide us with:

1. The wire size of each of the four 20 Amp circuits. Each circuit probably uses #12 wire, but maybe we will get lucky and there will be some circuits that were ran using #10 wire.

2. A photo of your electrical panel that has the four 20 Amp circuits.

My existing Intermatic dual timer controller had two #10 wires, plus a #10 green ground wire fed from a two-pole 30 Amp breaker at the main panel The #10 wire is good for 30 Amps. The two-pole breaker is how 220 Volts is obtained from the main panel (single-pole breakers are for 120 Volt loads). When I installed my AquaLogic PS-4 last year, I used the existing #10 wires and reconnected them to the new AquaLogic panel.

The AquaLogic PS-4 installation manual says that the maximum load is 100 Amps, but does not list a minimum wire size to be supplied to the AquaLogic panel. My guess is that you would need a minimum of 30 Amps service (#10 wire) to your new AquaLogic panel, but we would have to add up all of your pool/spa/lighting loads in order to determine whether you could get by with less than 30 Amps.

I was hoping to do the installation myself. I have done common household wiring but not a service entrance or 220V wiring.

The wiring from your main panel to the new AquaLogic panel is not a service entrance. The service entrance is where the utility connects to your meter and main panel. 220 Volt wiring is really no different than 120 volt wiring - it is just that each wire in 220 Volt has 120 Volts on it, whereas in 120 Volt wiring only one wire has 120 Volts on it. The main difference is that the breakers involved are two-pole rather than single-pole. If you have done common household wiring before (and it was to Code) then the leap to 220 Volt should be no big deal. The main thing is safety - which actually isn't any different than what you need to do with 120 Volt.

Sounds like a fun project.

Titanium

 

[dschlic1]

Most homes are wired 240/120. This means that there are three wires (really four with ground) coming inot the breaker panel. At the top of the breaker panel you should see two rather large wires. Another large white wire will be connected to a bare bus, usually along one side of the panel. Now for the voltages: between the two large wires is 240 volts. Between each of the large wires and the white wire is 120 volts.

So if your breaker panel is wired up this way, then to properly wire the P4 you will have to feed four wires to it: two hot, neutral and a ground. The P4 has a small breaker panel for the pool loads. The two hot going to the P4 will need to be feed by a two pole breaker, which is two breakers in one package linked together. Each pole of the breaker will have 120 volts to neutral, and 240 to the other pole.

Hope this helps

 

[gworrel]

Thanks for the replies. I discovered that I do have 240 coming into the garage. It looks like it may be a bit of a kluge which was typical for the person who set up the previous automation system. Here is a picture of the panel with the 240 breaker. The second picture is a junction box where the neutral is coming from. This must be where the 240 originally entered the garage. I don't remember why the other wires were not used. It appears that the two 120 volt lines are supplied with two black and two white 12 gauge wires that come from another point into the garage. At least they appear to be 12 gauge. The equipment to be controlled is a 1.5 Hp pump, 1hp blower, the SWG, and perhaps the 500 watt pool light.

 

[Titanium]

gworrel,

It looks like it may be a bit of a kluge

Thanks for the pictures. Although a picture may be worth a thousand words, your pictures have left me speechless.

It is a little hard to follow all of the wires in your pictures, but my initial impression is that you should probably run a brand-new spanking 30 Amp, #10 gauge (or larger) cable from your main electrical panel (service entrance) to the AquaLogic sub-panel. I am seeing multiple problems with your existing wiring:

1. Multiple wires being terminated on the 20 Amp, single-pole 120 volt breakers.
2. Neutral is coming from a different place than the two 240 Volt wires.
3. Possible interconnection of the ground and neutral wires in the first picture (can not completely tell from the picture).

Even if all of the above problems could be fixed, you would still be left with a maximum of a 20 Amp feed to your pool sub-panel (AquaLogic panel). If you could provide the nameplate data from the 1.5 HP pump and the 1 HP blower, we could take a stab at seeing what your total electrical load is going to be and see if 20 Amps is going to be sufficient.

Also, could you try and make an electrical schematic of what the wires in the picture are doing? It doesn't have to be fancy, but it is just hard to see exactly what is going on in that box. And that "borrowed neutral" in the second picture really confuses me.

Also, realize that a breaker is only good for 80% of its rating if it has to run that load for longer than three hours. In your example, your 20 Amp breaker is only rated to carry 20 Amps if that 20 Amps load runs for three hours or less. If the load is run longer than three hours, then your 20 Amp breaker is only rated for 16 Amps. This is true for virtually all "molded-case breakers", which is what these black plastic breakers are known as.

Hopefully this is clear and helpful. If not, keep asking questions.

Titanium

 

[dschlic1]

Actually I think you are in really bad shape. Looking carefully at the top photo (which BTW is upside down), the incoming power should be connected to the two sliver screw terminals, in the middle of the breakers, one to each side. This is normally where the two hot wires from the power company connect. However, if I am seeing correctly, the terminal to the right has one or two balck wires connected to it (which should be correct), bu the terminal to the left has two small white wires! These should also be black.

The black block with the sliver terminal to the far right should be the neutral connection. At this point I suggest that you either hire an electrican, or run down to Radio Shack and purchase a voltmeter.

 

[Rockcrawler]

the photo is not upside down the break is mounted upside down

 

[Titanium]

dschic1,

incoming power should be connected to the two sliver screw terminals, in the middle of the breakers, one to each side. This is normally where the two hot wires from the power company connect. However, if I am seeing correctly, the terminal to the right has one or two balck wires connected to it (which should be correct), bu the terminal to the left has two small white wires! These should also be black.

Good catch. That part didn't look kosher to me either when I was looking at it.

Also, I just realized this post was in the "Saltwater Chlorine Generators" forum. I would think this thread would be better in the "Build and Repair" forum. Moved. JasonLion

Titanium

 

[gworrel]

Thanks for the replies. It does not surprise me that it does not look conventional. The only positive thing I can say is that it has provided the power for the pump, blower, lights, electric valves, controller, and garage door opener for about 10 years and has never tripped a circuit. Actually that is not entirely true. The circuit that powers the garage door opener has tripped a couple of times a year after a rain. For the last couple of weeks, that circuit has not worked and will not stay on for more than a few seconds.

My recollection is a little vague but I believe that what happened is that my friend who installed it used a combination of the wiring coming into the garage to accomplish what was needed. If there was no 10 gauge wire but two 12s then that is what he used.

I can try to trace the wires and where they go. I do have a multimeter. If a new line is needed from the house, it must cross an asphalt driveway. There are two existing conduits but they are not very big and they are very old. The pool was installed in 1965. Fishing a new wire might be a challenge. I will also check the details on the pump and blower. Thanks.

 

[gworrel]

The pump is labeled 1.5 hp, 9.6 amps and the blower is labeled 1.5 hp, 7.5 amps. Inside the house, the service panel has a double pole 40 amp breaker that is labeled pool equipment. There is also a 15 amp breaker labeled garage. In the picture above of the panel in the garage, does the double pole breaker with two twenty amp labels give 40 total in 240 volts?

I am going to have an electrician come out and give me a price on setting it up. If it is reasonable then I may just have him do it. Thanks.