Fiberglass Pool Stains

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skillset

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May 3, 2007
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Central NJ
It's seems to be a never-ending battle with these pool stains. Marie (MBAR) - maybe you can comment here?

I have a 10K IG FG pool.

Opened to a pretty stained pool a few weeks ago and tried 32oz of Metal Magic (MM). It cleared the stains mostly, but all re-appeared in a few days. So, I decided to try the ascorbic acid treatment.

So...After swimming was done on Labor Day, added 1lb of the Leslie's Stain treatment (ascorbic acid). Cl was .5. Added another 32oz of MM. Ran filter 24/7 for 2 days. All stains gone - pool looked great! Good news. Rebalanced Alk and Ph on Wed with Borax and Baking Soda and pool remained pretty good until today...

Today, I tested the water and the Ph was low (6.8). Added some borax (I sprinked it all in front of the return jets). After swimming in the pool a few hours I noticed the stains were back in a large area where I dumped the borax. The Cl was low today, 3.0, (CYA is 30). I know high Cl and high Ph can bring out the stains, but the Cl was low and so was the Ph, but perhaps adding about 3lbs of borax in one concentrated area made the stains come out? I'm wondering why the MM I put in the water on Monday is not doing its job - it's only been 6 days !! For the heck of it, I dumped a maintenance dose of MM in the water this evening, so I'll see if the stains retreat overnight.

Some other details - but I think they are not material: I want to raise my CYA, so I returned to using pucks early last week. But, if adding borax is going to bring my stains out, I'll go back to bleach, since the pucks are acidic and bring the Ph down. I hate using the pucks anyway because you can't measure exactly what's going into the pool, like bleach. But, I had leftover from last season (before BBB) and am trying to use them up.

OK - so I don't want to have to keep dumping MM in my water at $15/quart and buying A-Acid. Is there some truth to what I am thinking - that adding Borax to one area of the pool can increase the Ph of the water substantially in that section (at least for awhile), which would cause the stains to come re-appear (even in low Cl)?

Sure wish someone would invent something to remove metals from the water! The claim of MM that it does this is utter nonsense - but it does sequester the metal, at least for awhile. This seems to be the one drawback of a FG pool !

Thoughts / Suggestions?
 
You need more sequestrant. There are metals in the pool, either in stains or in the water. To keep the metals in the water you need sequestrant. Any time the stains are appearing you either have too little sequestrant or raised the PH too much.

To minimize staining while chemicals are mixing into the water you can often add the chemicals to the skimmer instead of to the pool. That way any stains will tend to be inside the filter. About the only chemical you can't do this with is muriatic acid, but that wouldn't cause stains in any case.
 
All right I screwed up - I left the chlorinator up too high today and came home and the Cl was at 10.5. Not quite shock level for CYA of 30, but enough Cl to have the pool back to a stained mess. I am shutting that darn thing off.

The question is now, if I repeat the ascorbic acid process within a few days, is the 32oz of Metal Magic still "good" or do I need to add another quart?
 
Don't do the ascorbic acid treatment again. Since the stains are new I would take the ph back down to 7.0 add more sequestering agent.

I just tried a really good one I got online at Water warehouse. It is Doheny's water warehouse extra-strength metal out. It took the stains off my pool by itself. It took a couple of days, but they lifted without the ascorbic stain treatment.

This year I am trying to see how the pool works with a higher cya. I have mine at 50 now, and plan to let it stay around there.

I think the borax poured right in the pool did cause the metals to fall out for you. I always put the borax or baking soda in the skimmer just as Sean says.

Another thing is to make sure your chlorinator is plumbed before the filter - this way the extra concentration of chlorine goes through the filter before getting to the pool, so that if any metals fall out they will stain the filter first. I only use my chlorinator when I am going to be away, or if I need to lower the ph.

Using bleach is the best for the fiberglass, because you can control the amount you put in, and you can also pour it right in the skimmer, or in the return flow.

Do you have any calcium in your pool? What is the alkalinity?

Another thing I found is that running the filter 24/7 really helps with keeping the stains away while getting the water balanced. So to make this more understandable, this is what I would do if it were my pool.


1. Get the ph down to 7.0 no higher than 7.2

2. Add metal out

3. Keep filter running 24/7

4. Make sure Alkalinity is 80 - 120

5. Make sure you have some calcium in the water, but not higher than 200

6. Use bleach for chlorinating

7. Add any borax or baking soda through skimmer.

Please keep me informed about how the stains react - you know it is all a learning experience :)

My daughter's wedding was beautiful! Thanks!
 
Hi Marie! Thanks for the reply. I was in the process of aerating the pool to bring the Ph up so I could to the A-treatment. The pool is about 60% stain covered - it's never been so bad ! My wife won't invite anyone over now! So, I was thinking of re-doing the A-treatment. But the Cl is taking it's time to go down - it was 7 tonight. I expected it to be a lot lower considering the past 2 sunny days here.

Do you really think the MM can remove this much stain? I can add a little acid to get it back down to 7. But, I'm kind of torn. I found a place to get 5lbs of ascorbic acid for $40, so I ordered and am waiting for it. I kind of feel like I'm dumping money in the pool by using MM - at $16 a pop! I've used 2 1/2 bottles in just 4 weeks. I see the price for Metal Out you tried is about the same for MM, but Metal Out is only 1/8 the dose! Did you only use the recommended 4oz to get your pool clean? This would be a great cost savings !! Do you think the Metal Out works better than MM? I also see Sequa-Sol is really much lower in price, but can't find too many opinions on it. But, I'll order some Metal Out if this works as well/better than MM. Thanks for the answers and tips !!

Anyway, here are some fresh tests: CYA is now up to 40 from my week's use of pucks. Alk was 110. Ph is 7.4. Cl is 7. Water is looking good. Temp is 89. Great swimming! Was a bit cloudy after the A-treatment and adding borax, but it is pretty clear. Running the filter 24x7.

I did the calcium drop test. I hate this test because I have a hard time seeing the color. My initial solution after the R11L is a very pale pink and it only takes about 5 drops of R12 to turn it a very pale blue. The pale pink/blue drives me nuts because it's so hard for me to tell the difference in color change! I guess this really means I only have 50ppm of CA. Maybe lower? Is the R11L supposed to turn the solution a deep red - the directions say sample will turn red. But, it's a faint pink. Anyway, guess I need to add CA? Why is this necessary anyway?

Thanks for the tip on how to add the borax. Unfortunately, my chlorinator is plumbed after the filter. But, again, it's shut off now and I'm back to the bleach. I hate not being in control of the Cl level, anyway.

Again - thanks for the quick reply! I'm glad the wedding was nice!

Marc
 
There is some evidence that maintaining higher CH in a fiberglass pool helps prevent staining and cobalt spotting. I am now running mine at 250-300 ppm CH and have not had much of a staining problem anymore but I still keep a maintenance dose of metal magic in my water monthly.
 
Waterbear is right, I have started to keep some calcium in my pool now too. I get it to about 200. The metal out seems to work better at removing the new stains, but i did use the whole bottle in my pool which is 16,000 gal. You can use the ascorbic acid treatment with chlorine in your pool - the chlorine will just eat up some of the ascorbic acid - that's why they tell you to take the chlorine down to 0, so you don't waste the acid. I have added it with chlorine before, and it still worked. One thing you can try is to just use a little of the ascorbic acid around the perimeter of the pool, especially where you see staining. Put the filter on circulate and add the metal out (or any sequestering agent you have). Try adding the calcium, it may stop some of the stains from coming back. since you already bought the ascorbic acid, I would use it around the perimeter, just a little at a time till all of the stains are gone - it should not take as much as it did initially. Leave the ph low for a while, and maybe add some algaecide so you can keep the chlorine low for a couple of weeks. When I have done this it did not cloud the water. I always keep some ascorbic acid on hand and it is almost like "since I have it, I don't need it" :roll: . Well another year of experimenting with these darn stains :twisted: Keep us posted, it helps us all to share what works, cause all pools react differently.
 
Thanks, again, Marie.

I did order some algaecide, 25lbs of calcium, and Metal Out from Water Warehouse.

When they comes, I will first get the CA up to 180 or so before doing anything else. The pool manufacturer (San Juan) recommends CA between 175 and 225.

After I get the CA up, I'll try the sequester first and let it go for a 2 days or so. Hopefully, that will work.

If not, I'll use a tiny bit of the A-acid. When the stains were only in a spot or two, I could just put some A-acid in a pair of stockings and rub the stains away quickly, so maybe this will be the case.

Right now the Ph looks like it's under 7.2, but not quite 7.0 and the Cl is 4.5.

Some other questions: Is my calcium test working right as I described earlier? Should the red and blue be pretty distinguishable?

Also - is there a better test for Ph other than R-0014? I have a hard time telling colors, particulary the difference between 6.8 and 7.2. I love the Cl DPD test - it's always easy to do.

I will keep you posted on next steps.
 
skillset said:
Thanks, again, Marie.

I did order some algaecide, 25lbs of calcium, and Metal Out from Water Warehouse.
The algacide is polyquat 60, isn't it? If not get polyquat 60!
When they comes, I will first get the CA up to 180 or so before doing anything else. The pool manufacturer (San Juan) recommends CA between 175 and 225.
I have a San Juan also and found that by keeping my calcium even higher I don't get stains as readily. Mine is between 250-300.
After I get the CA up, I'll try the sequester first and let it go for a 2 days or so. Hopefully, that will work.

If not, I'll use a tiny bit of the A-acid. When the stains were only in a spot or two, I could just put some A-acid in a pair of stockings and rub the stains away quickly, so maybe this will be the case.

Right now the Ph looks like it's under 7.2, but not quite 7.0 and the Cl is 4.5.

Some other questions: Is my calcium test working right as I described earlier? Should the red and blue be pretty distinguishable?
The colors are more like pink and sky blue but the color change is pretty evident. be sure to swirl the vial for about 20-30 seconds beteeen each drop. It will make the endpoint much easier to detect (I know it makes this test time consuming but it is the proper way to do it. You can also buy a magnetic stirrer. It will speed up this test greatly! http://www.troublefreepool.com/viewtopic.php?t=1489 )
Also - is there a better test for Ph other than R-0014? I have a hard time telling colors, particulary the difference between 6.8 and 7.2. I love the Cl DPD test - it's always easy to do.
6.8 is lemon yellow with NO orange at all. 7.2 is light orange. Phenol red (which is what the R-0014 is, along with a chlorine neutalizer) is the best pH test we have for pools.
I will keep you posted on next steps.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Evan.

Everything TFP and TPF have said was always buy Poly 60. So, I think that's what I bought. It says "Concentrated Algaecide 60" and it's more expensive than all the other algaesides on the Water Warehouse site, so hopefully this is the right stuff. I've never used algaecide before - just Cl. Thanks for asking.

OK - I'll bump the CA to a higher level since you are having good luck with your SJ pool! Not sure high high 25lbs will get me because I don't know the dosage, but if it's like the Leslie product, then 25lbs will get me +200ppm.

Thanks also for the tips w/the CA and Ph. I'm a bit colorblind, so that's not helping me much. I read your post from last July on the stirrer. Guess this would really help me! The Alk test usually doesn't require so long to stir, but I'll give the 20-30 seconds a try w/the CA test.

By the way - looks like your pool has tile? SJ is not putting on tile any longer. A few of my factory-installed tiles cracked over the winter. I managed to order some from a local distributor in FL, but it costs a fortune to ship. Just thought I'd buy some extras if I really need a lot of them down the road. I was a bit worried about availability.
 

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Evan,

I hate to ask for more clarification on the seemlingly simple Ph test, but here goes. You wrote: "6.8 is lemon yellow with NO orange at all. 7.2 is light orange. "

I added 40oz of MM to the 10K pool last night and tested the Ph this morning, as I expected the Ph to fall. If you look straight DOWN at the test water (in the block) the color is definitely light orange. My wife confirmed too! But, if you look at the water through the front of the test block (where the numbers are) it's definitely matching with the yellow (6.8). So, does this mean it's 6.8 or maybe something in the middle like 7.0. How do you know when you have 7.0, anyway?

I'm concerned w/running the pump with too low of a Ph. Should I be?

Thanks!
 
Thought I'd give a follow-up. I'm keeping records now. AA treatment done on 6/14, which again, worked great. But stains returned with a vengence.

Last major dose of Metal Magic (50 oz) put in on 6/26 to get rid of a lot of stains. Worked fine - stains gone. During the last 2 weeks, I've kept the Cl at no more than 4, careful about this Cl level since the AA treatment on 6/14. Ph at 7 or lower.

Stains starting to return. Pool was nice for 6 days. Stains not bad, but returning. It's only been a week after the last dose. Ph has risen to 7.2 over the past 2 days, which I wouldn't think is signficant. Again - frustration setting in! Waterbear told me I'm od'ing on sequesterant!! I'm going to try some other sequesterants to see if they can hold the metals better.

Here's some questions:

1. I had almost no issues last year - my CYA was high and I often ran Cl at 7+, so high Cl had no affect on increasing stains. Now it seems to REALLY matter. So, I am trying to figure out how I got so much metal in the water. The only thing I can think about is the heater (which I ran A LOT in May - it's a heat pump) or pump. Heater and Pump are 3 years old. I used very little fill water from my city water. Do any of these devices yield metal? If so, what metal? I think I remember reading here that a heat pump can give off copper. I am thinking about replacing some of the water, but if my equipment is putting metal in the water, I'll only get it back.

2. In other post of PF, Waterbear indicated that AA will not work that great on copper stains. AA works great on these light brown stains, so I am assuming iron. Am I incorrect to assume iron? I need to find out what's in the water. My home test kits for copper and iron are saying 0. Any where I can send the water for testing?

3. Why does the sequesterant work ok for a week or so and then the metals start to fall out slowly again, especially if the pool chemistry is pretty constant? Why does some wear-out the sequesterant so quickly?

I've really enjoyed my FG pool for three seasons, but this year is nothing but a hassle with these stains. I'm questioning my decision to go FG!

By the way, I did not have as much success as MBAR with Metal Out as with Metal Magic. I do have Resist (Sodium Citrate)and Stain Tamer (Citric acid, Sodium Chloride, Sodium HEXAMETAPHOSPHATE) which I will try and let everyone know.
 
skillset said:
Thought I'd give a follow-up. I'm keeping records now. AA treatment done on 6/14, which again, worked great. But stains returned with a vengence.

Last major dose of Metal Magic (50 oz) put in on 6/26 to get rid of a lot of stains. Worked fine - stains gone. During the last 2 weeks, I've kept the Cl at no more than 4, careful about this Cl level since the AA treatment on 6/14. Ph at 7 or lower.

Stains starting to return. Pool was nice for 6 days. Stains not bad, but returning. It's only been a week after the last dose. Ph has risen to 7.2 over the past 2 days, which I wouldn't think is signficant. Again - frustration setting in! Waterbear told me I'm od'ing on sequesterant!! I'm going to try some other sequesterants to see if they can hold the metals better.

Here's some questions:

1. I had almost no issues last year - my CYA was high and I often ran Cl at 7+, so high Cl had no affect on increasing stains. Now it seems to REALLY matter. So, I am trying to figure out how I got so much metal in the water. The only thing I can think about is the heater (which I ran A LOT in May - it's a heat pump) or pump. Heater and Pump are 3 years old. I used very little fill water from my city water. Do any of these devices yield metal? If so, what metal? I think I remember reading here that a heat pump can give off copper. I am thinking about replacing some of the water, but if my equipment is putting metal in the water, I'll only get it back.

2. In other post of PF, Waterbear indicated that AA will not work that great on copper stains. AA works great on these light brown stains, so I am assuming iron. Am I incorrect to assume iron? I need to find out what's in the water. My home test kits for copper and iron are saying 0. Any where I can send the water for testing?

3. Why does the sequesterant work ok for a week or so and then the metals start to fall out slowly again, especially if the pool chemistry is pretty constant? Why does some wear-out the sequesterant so quickly?

I've really enjoyed my FG pool for three seasons, but this year is nothing but a hassle with these stains. I'm questioning my decision to go FG!

By the way, I did not have as much success as MBAR with Metal Out as with Metal Magic. I do have Resist (Sodium Citrate)and Stain Tamer (Citric acid, Sodium Chloride, Sodium HEXAMETAPHOSPHATE) which I will try and let everyone know.
Click to expand...

Did you try the resist and the stain tamer? I was wondering what your results were....
 
Most pool heaters have copper heat exchange coils that can put copper in the water when the PH is very low. There are no other common sources of metals in the plumbing. It is very uncommon these days but some very old pools have iron pipes. Various algaecides contain copper. Some municipal water contains iron as do many wells.

Sequestrant breaks down over time. Different kinds of sequestrant break down at different rates, some much faster than others. To keep the metals sequestered you need to add sequestrant regularly.

Ascorbic acid works on several metals, though only very rarely on copper. Brown stains are usually iron, though there are some other less likely possibilities.
 
Thanks, JasonLion! Bottomline, I need to be sure what the stains are. Since my pool installation is only 3 years (plumbing is all PVC), seems like if I don't have copper it can't be the heater. I never ran the thing below a Ph of 6.8. So, I think you are probably right - it's probably iron, given the high effectiveness of AA. I'm assuming the pump won't give off metal.

It's just so strange why all the problems this year. Maybe a lot of iron in the rain?

Anyway, I'm going to experiment with different sequesterant-type products. Metal Magic works for me, but it is not lasting more than 5 days and a maintenance dose or even 2x the maintenance does doesn't work. I don't want to pouring in 32oz on a weekly basis.

I tried Stain Tamer 2 days ago but have not removed the solar cover since due to rain. Will report back to the group when I know results. Obviously, looking for something that can take the stains out and keep them away with a normal-dosage of maintenance (even if it's weekly). I've done some research using MSDS sheets of the different products out there.

Good thing for me is, it's just a cosmetic issue. Getting great use out of the pool this NJ summer.
 
I feel your pain :( , I know how frustrating it is to deal with staining. I really can't answer your question. It has happened to me, where all of my numbers are good, and the stains keep coming back. It is all trial and error - mostly trial :? . I think there are sometimes more substances in the air, from trees and construction, that land in the pool - also I wonder about bugs too, I really gave up trying to figure out how I was getting metals in my water, now I just deal with it. I don't use a maintenance dose of sequestering agent anymore. I just use it when I start to see stain forming. I also throw in some ascorbic acid sometimes if the sequestering agent doesn't work. How much calcium is in your pool? Waterbear says you should have 250 - 300 ppms opf calcium. I also read somewhere that the gelcoat on some fiberglass pools is not the best, and they seem to attract stains more readily. My advice is to keep your water balanced, then use sequestering agent and ascorbic to control the staining. I know it is frustrating, but if you are doing everything right, and the water is balanced, and you still get stains (like I do), then it is just a "cosmetic" issue, if you are like me, and hate the stains :rant: , you will continue to try to get rid of them :hammer: . Soooo, maybe between all of us who fight stains, we will someday find something that will get rid of the metals easily! We all just have to keep posting different things we try. I did run my cya very low and had stains, I ran it high and had stains, I have tried many permutations, and always at some point the stains return. Sometimes they are gone most of the summer, and I can't figure out why, when my water is balanced the same way :? So I continue on my quest - and post what I know - how to get rid of them, just not how to keep them away forever.
 
Nice to hear from you, Marie!

I have no CA in my water. I had none in the beginning of the summer and then added quite a bit to get it up to about 250. Then, because I used so much Metal Out and Metal Magic, it all got sequestered out! My pump's pressure was practically nill and I had to backwash all that nice new CA out ! I guess I'll try more CA at some point in time, but it would seriously be great if the other metals could be flushed out so easily.

I'm not sure I believe in maintenance doses - so I've always done as you did: add the sequesterant when needed.

I have noticed that the stains are coming back, but slowly. Much more rapidly than other summers, but certainly more slowly this season. I attribute this to a lower Cl (I'm holding it at 4.0). I did raise my CYA to 50 so I wouldn't get wide swings in the Cl from constantly adding Cl from loss. I think this is also helping a bit. My water is very clear, too. Ph reamins "low" at 7.0.

I have plenty of AA, so I'm going to try it next when the stains get too bad - I'm guess within 2 weeks. Right now if the sun is shining they are barely noticable, so I'll wait a bit. Other summers, the Metal Magic went right in if it looked like it does right now, but again, I'm learning to tolerate it! Early this summer my pool was brown -so I know how bad it can get.

UPDATE on STAIN TAMER: Unfortunately, this product had no effect whatsoever on the stains. While the crystals disolved very nicely, it did not remove stains, nor do I think it is helping the current stains. I gave it 3 days. Every day, the stains get a tinge darker. I used 1.5x the dosage it called for. I wish I could report better results, but I can't.

Next steps, I will use AA to clear the pool sometime over the next 2 weeks and then try RESIST as the next sequesterant. I want to compare that to Metal Magic.

Not sure when I will add the CA. What a waste of money that was! I'd add it again if I knew the sequesterant wasn't going to get rid of it.
 
I have to disagree that Metal Magic does not work:
I too had metal stains in my fiberglass pool for the past season and felt as though I tried everything (very frustrated). Several pool shops tested my water (which was always balanced) and said the same thing......more metal out (sequesterant). This is what became VERY frustrating. I was spending a fortune on this stuff....every 3-4 days (1/2 qt) or else a dose of ascorbic acid $50 to get rid of the stains. Then I found Metal Magic. Sequesterants like metal out don't remove the problem....the metals. They just suspend them in the water and off the pool surfaces. Metal Magic binds to the metals and forms crystals...allowing the filter to collect and backwash them out. I see someone in this thread used it and found some relief but not total. Here is where I feel the problem occured. One bottle is not enough if you are experiencing consistent problems. I used the dosing test (sponge test) found on proteam's website and I required 1qt per 5000 gallons AT LEAST (which came out to be 4 1/2 -qt's ). Severe cases could take 1 qt. per 2500 gals. Metal Magic requires a pH of 7.6 to 7.8 before using. It will drop the pH and CH a bit. After 48hrs of filtering......no stains. Perfectly white fiberglass. When 4 weeks passed by with not one stain I knew I finally solved my metals problem. Now I use a small dose of Metal Magic to maintain metal free water while using a metal filter on the hose when I fill. If you're tired of running around in circles check it out! You can adjust the chemistry until you're blue in the face....you have to REMOVE the metals or your problem will keep returning. AND...you have to use enough to get the job done.
http://www.proteampoolcare.com/tr_metalmagic.htm

Some places to order it:

http://www.poolgeek.com/Proteam-Metal-Magic.htm
http://www.poolspachemicals.com/store.php
 

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