Pool troubles

[andyt]

Hoping you guys can help me.
For 2 years (1 summer) we have been limping along with this pool, we even hired someone to take care of it, but he gave up and disappeared.
The pool is an outdoor, gunite pool, built in 1990. It is 75 ft long, and the width varies from 10 ft to about 25 ft. I estimate the volume to be about 72,000 gallons.
The pump is a Pentair IntelliFlo VF, the filter is a Jandy CL-460. A Pentair chlorine feeder is plumbed in after the filter.
The cleaner is a Polaris 9300 Sport robotic.
All of the piping around the equipment is 2" PVC. There are 2 skimmers, both have 2 holes in the bottom (neither has any diverter for switching between the holes).
There are 4 returns, the returns are 1" PVC, cut off at the end of the plaster, not threaded, no eyeballs.
The equipment is placed at one corner of the pool, and the return there is very powerful, while the one in the other (shallow) end is weak.
There are air bubbles coming out of the powerful return, and air bubbles in the pump basket.
There is a 3-way diverter valve in front of the pump, switching between the 2 skimmers, I am very suspicious of this valve as the air leak, when I place my hand around the elbow attached to the valve I can hear the sucking noise change. It is an older, grey colored Jandy valve, not the never lube kind.
Current problem, pool is just not getting clean. Been running the pump on manual at 100, 110, 120 GPM for days, still have cloudy water. The filters do not look that dirty, we have 2 sets, and rinse and reload, and keep trying.
The gauge on the top of the filter is not working, it was replaced by the pool guy before he quit. So its brand new, just installed, but not working.
Also replaced all O-rings in the filter, the O-ring in the feeder, and the O-ring at the pump basket.
The filter manifold was replaced too.
The pump seems to think there is pressure, (it reads filter at 67%), and it does prime, and run, and I can see and feel water coming out of the returns.
We had been testing with bad kits and strips until we found this site and started reading. We ordered the FAS-DPD kit, and here are the readings I got (keep in mind, this was my first time using this kit).
FC: 0.6 PPM
CC: 4 PPM
PH: 7.6
T.A.: 170ppm
Calcium carb.: 490ppm
CYA: 40ppm

Obviously it needs chlorine, but I am still concerned about the filtration issue.
We tried, about 5 days ago, to raise the chlorine level to over 5PPM at least and poured 8 gallons of 10% liquid chlorine in.
The test kit we had read around 5PPM at that point.
I stopped adding chemicals until the better test kit got here.

When we called the pool guy originally, the pool was green and had an algae problem (yellow algae, mustard algae?).
Now there is what looks like sand all over the pool.
When I run the Polaris it gets clogged after about 15 minutes. Should I just keep running it over and over?
The pool guy complained that he could not get his vacuum to work due to suction problem.
He was blaming it on the manifold.

How do I clean the filter cartridges well enough that they will work again?
1 sets is about 1.5 years old, the other is about 1 year old.
I was planning to order another set just to see if it made any difference.

Thanks for any help or suggestions!!

 

[jblizzle]

Welcome to TFP!!!

Wow. That is a big pool. We would love to see pictures.

First, that filter is WAY too small, but you are not going to find anything big enough in the residential industry. Our recommendation ... although extrapolated would suggest needing 1100 sqft of cartridge filter ... that is almost 3 of what you currently have.

All that means is that you will have to clean the "small" filter more often.

{EDIT: are you sure about that volume? How deep is the pool? ... seems like it would have to average 7' deep to be 72k gallons}

Seems like your biggest equipment problem is a suction leak, are you bleeding the air out of the top of filter all the time? You need to get the air out of the pump and that, might, help the filtration.

You are right you need a lot more chlorine. Are you sure you are reporting the FC and CC correctly? Usually CC is close to 0. But if that is right, it could be due to some of the chemicals that have been added or could be due to ammonia. The solution to either is more chlorine.

Have you read Pool School? (button at the upper right)
You need to follow this: Shocking Your Pool

Although it might be good to figure out the equipment problems first.

 

[elwood58]

The CC you are reading means that your pool has organics living in it, and you need to go through the shock process outlined in Pool School (Upper Right Button).

Calcium is a little high, as is your TA, but those problems can wait. I would knock your pH down to 7.2, as it is going to creep up due to aeration, and you will not be able to reliably check it while at high FC levels. Be prepared to babysit the chlorine for a few days, and never let it get below shock level. You are going to need 20 gallons of 10% liquid chlorine. 10-11 Gallons to get you to shock level, and the rest to keep you there. You may have to buy more.

 

[jblizzle]

We need to get a better estimate on the volume before you start calculating how much bleach to add.

 

[andyt]

Dimensions were pretty accurate, and I would say my volume estimate is not that far off.
Deep end is 11 ft deep.
Pics:

First pool store estimate was 65,000 gallons, (they did not believe either), second time they estimated 75,000.
The original polaris I found in the pool had 45' of hose to reach all of the pool, I bet you can guess how well that worked.
I am going to order a new valve ASAP, and try and repair the suction leak, but unless it just suddenly got worse, there has always been a suction leak, as there has always been bubbles in the basket and bubbles out of the return.
Theres a 25' tape measure on the ground for perspective. It reaches 1/3rd of the way down the pool.
The skinnier middle section is where the slope begins. Shallow end is 3-4' deep, the skinny section goes 4-8, deepend is 8-11'.
To lower CYA previously, I drained about 25% of the water (this was maybe a month ago). It took 48 hours of constant running for my little transfer pump to drain 25%, that's a ~300GPH pump.

Ok, this should help:

 

[karmabiker]

Dude.....

That ... is a WHOLE lot of pool.

 

[march2012]

you can buy some epoxy at home depot and smear it over the leak for now.

As others said, your CC is high (should be zero) so you have to shock. That is going to be a lot of chlorine...

 

[Isaac-1]

First let me say nice, pool, second we can help make it trouble free, getting it clean will likely require a few days of work, maybe just a weekend of staying on top of the shock process, checking chlorine level every couple of hours, boosting as needed, maybe scrubbing the pool with a brush while your at it. Once you get it cleaned up we can then help you keep it clean, this means testing and adjusting chemicals (mostly chlorine) on a daily basis at first, once you get the hang of it you can probably switch to about 5 minutes of testing / dosing every other day, and 10 minutes of detailed testing every 2-4 weeks. The real key to a trouble free pool is catching problems before they start and to do that you need to understand what is going on in your pool, for that I suggest you read the pool school link in the upper right corner of this page, when your done, let it soak in then read it again a time or two more.

Ike

 

[linen]

Welcome to tfp, andyt

I used the tennis court to get a measurement on your dimensions and used your depths given and I get ~43500 gallons. Here is my detail:

Deep end:

(23*17-6.5^2)*9.5=3313 cu. ft.

Middle:

17*12*6=504 cu. ft.

Shallow:

((35*19.5-(7^2/2))*3.5)-(17*5.5*1.75)=2166.5-163.6=2003 cu. ft.

Total=

5820 cu. ft. * 7.48 gallon/cu.ft.=43534 gallons

 

[Casey]

Your neighbors' pools look like kiddie pools compaired to your pool!

 

[harleysilo]

If you could provid very detailed deminsions of the pool, on even a hand drawn picture, including where the debth changes occur we can double check the wide range of estimated volumnes posted so far. Really need to know volumne.

 

[andyt]

Ok, I went out there and measured everything as precisely as I could, including depth.
The whole "average depth" thing was throwing this off.
I divided the pool up into section so I could get a better estimate.
Shallow end:
For the rectangular portion (38 x 12.5 x 3.75 x 7.48) = 13,323.75
the angular parts, I broke this up into 4 sections
2 x 7 x 3 x 7.48 = 314.16
23 x 8.9 x 3 x 7.48 = 4593.468
(8.9 x 8 x 3 x 7.48) / 2 = 798.864
(8 x 3.87 x 3 x 7.48) / 2 = 347.3712
That all adds up to 6053.86.
The middle section:
15 x 12.5 x 5.83 x 7.48 = 8,176.58
The deep end:
rectangular part (22 x 12.5 x 10 x 7.48) = 20,570.00
angular parts
(6.7 x 6 x 9 x 7.48) / 2 = 1353.132
(6.7 x 8 x 9 x 7.48) / 2 = 1804.176
6.7 x 8 x 9 x 7.48 = 3608.352
Those add up to 6756.66
Whew! Ok, so
shallow end = (13,323.75 + 6053.86) = 19377.61
middle = 8,176.58
deep end = (20,570.00 + 6756.66) = 27,326.66
TOTAL = 54,880.85
Moral of this story is: it pays to be precise, or at least as precise as you can...previous estimates by myself and the pool store were way off.

Here are my measurements.

 

[jblizzle]

Glad you took the time to do that so we are starting with a better estimate. That will certainly help with dosing chemicals.

Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short

 

[linen]

Probably doesn't make much difference, but I get ~50200 gallons with your new measurements.

 

[andyt]

Update:
Replaced the diverter valve, pulled the gauge apart (from the filter) and cleaned it out and was able to get it working.
Now I have no air leaks, no bubbles coming out of the returns, no bubbles in the pump basket.
PSI on filter of about 12, at 90GPM. (Replaced cartridges).
So on to shocking. Pool calculator said to add 13 gallons of 10% bleach to hit algae shock levels, so I added 13 gallons.
Waited about 2 hours and tested.
Results:
FC 6.5
CC 1.5
PH 7.4
TA 150
CH 450
CYA 40

I went back to pool calculator and put in 6.5 with target of 15, and added 5 gallons of 10% bleach.
18 gallons so far.....
I guess I will measure again in a while, pool is currently blue and cloudy.

 

[spidey07]

Keep following the shock process. It's working. Keep on it.

Dang nice pool.

That's a big pool to be brushing while shocking but don't let up. Once done it will be trouble free following the guides here.

 

[andyt]

Over 100 gallons of 10% bleach later....
Pool is clearing up. I can see the bottom of the deep end finally.
Been doing lots of brushing and vacuuming.

I think I'm over the worst of it, but I still am losing/using a good bit of chlorine.
There have been a couple nights where I passed an OCLT, but then today I was down from 15 to 12ppm.
(Granted, I slept in a bit and the sun was already up when I tested.)
Should this be done in total darkness? Is ANY sunlight at all going to break down some chlorine?
My CYA is roughly 50 (I tested 40 initially, but after more careful testing in better light it appears to be more like 50 to 52.)
Any ideas what my chlorine usage should be like on a daily basis?
I have been using 55,000 gallons in the pool calculator, and based on the test results, it seems a fairly accurate volume estimate, as in, the levels rise/fall as expected based on how much I add.
The pool gets a good bit of direct sunlight, not much shade.

My tap water is hard. Do I just live with it? I cannot reasonably reduce CH levels by drain/refill. (NorCal)

 

[JohnN]

There are many variables, but I think typical FC usage is around 2ppm a day. As to CH, it is not that high. If you maintain a close to 0 CSI, which can be determined by plugging your numbers into poolcalculator.com, you shouldn't have a problem. I know Richard320 has a CH somewhere in the 800s or higher. He has more experience with high CH, so hopefully he will chime in to give you advice about that.

 

[Isaac-1]

It does sound like you are getting very close, keep at it and it will be worth it, you have a big pool so it will take more chemicals than most.

Ike

 

[andyt]

I just went outside to change out the filter cartridges, and all was going well, but when I went to put the filter clamp back on, I found I could not tighten the retaining nut on the threaded rod of the knob assembly.
It appears as though the inside of the retaining nut is stripped, it won't pull the clamp tight, just slips over the threads.
Sigh. It's 7 PM on a Saturday, most of the pool places are closed, and closed for the next 2 days.
What do I do?? Any suggestions?? Really would like to get the clamp back together so I don't lose any of the progress I've made.
(I hate this filter, I knew I should have replaced it, instead I've replaced EVERY part at least once.)
Can I go to a hardware store and find a nut that will fit this and just make do for a few days?
And why do "pool" nuts and bolts cost so much?? Are you kidding me? 45+ dollars for this?