Green Pool & Stained Liner

[JoanC]

I carried over stained liner from last year.
Problem began then with huge algae problem after spring rains. Pool store noted phosphates as problem rather than algae after exhausted all to rid opaque green. Did phosphate removal per instructions from pool store including flocculent at end of process. Did Filter Aid. Also changed sand in filter! Finally pool water was clear but stain on liner was awful. Tons of money in metal removers several times. Yes, I followed directions for proper chem. levels but never got the sequestered metals out of water. Even with vac to waste many times there was and still is a dark sediment that collects in areas on bottom of pool. The water would test NO metals but there was stain on the liner. Areas where there was/is sediment, the liner isn't stained. I gave up and said I would tackle it this year.
This Year: Pool was clear with the familiar stain from last season on liner. Warmer days early and algae growth so began shocking early with pwdr shock packets. 3 per week. Cooler days followed and did not cont. shocking. Then we had rain, rain, storms, tornados and RAIN!! Yep! Green/opaque pool! Shock, Shock and then rain, rain. Two steps forward and 4 steps back. Rain tomorrow and the pool is horrid green. Now with some bubbles/little foam! ?phosphates again?
I haven't taken a water sample to the "new" pool store in town to check for phosphates.
I'm really thinking about draining it and starting over. The water will be less expensive than all the chemicals it will take to TRY and clear it up.
IF I drain it, I will still have a stained liner from last year. I presume this is copper from so much algaecide used with last years green pool. The Natural Chemistry stain remover worked on it last year. I think I used about 8 containers of that and about 6 bottles of Metal Free. The ups and downs of the water chemistry simply bound the metal then released it again to be deposited again on the liner I do believe. So much for the knowledge of the pool store employees.
Do I try to clear it up and tackle the stained liner or drain it, refill with county/public water and tackle liner stain then?
Thank YOU!
Joan

My chemistry isn't good right now but this is what it is.
I did shock with 3lbs powdered 2 days ago. Not much use with CYA at 0.
FC- 0.5
CC-0
pH- 7.2
CH- 100
CYA - 0

 

[harleysilo]

That is one tragic story, so glad you found this place. Welcome!

 

[duraleigh]

I think your strategy of draining is a good one. The public water will be treated and almost surely will not add any more metal.

I am not sure you have identified the stains as metal or organic. Either way, getting a partial fresh start will be helpful to solving your issues.

As soon as you fill, get some chlorine in the pool on a daily basis and add enough CYA to get about 30 ppm.

Phosphates are irrelevant and should be completely disregarded. There is a lot of discussion here on the forum about them.

After you get your chemistry balanced and the new water, then would be the time to address the stains. I would ignore them until that time.

 

[JoanC]

Thank you both for your responses and concern.
I do feel the best thing to do is drain the pool and begin with "fresh" water from public supply.
This will solve most of the problems or be helpful to solving them as you stated duraleigh.
Stains: Only had them once before in 11 years. Scenario similar with excess algaecide use (copper content) but stains resolved when Metal Free used with CORRECT chemistry.
Stain looks like red clay stain evenly over whole liner, jets, etc. except where there is the dark gray sediment that deposits in a few areas. Underneath those, the liner appears clean or cleaner. That dark gray sediment has been in the pool since last year after all of the chemical processes to remove the algae, phosphates, floc, then treatments to remove stains. These sediments disperse when brushed up but do not filter out even with new sand late last season. They won't vac out either. Simply disperse when disturbed yet they are solid enough to protect the liner from the stain or rather they absorb the stain wherever they deposit is more like it. So this may be the residual from the Natures Chemistry Stain Free Vit C/Ascorbic Acid treatment last year. Whatever it is, this along with the other stuff leftover from all the processes needs to go.
I'm sorry. I'm writing a book again which gets us nowhere.
Point: I don't want residual/sediment in pool after refill when I try to get rid of stains.
I thought about trying to get the chemistry to required levels to use the Metal Out or Metal Free and doing it blind so to speak since I can see hardly any of the liner due to algae. Then drain the pool.
Would it work?

 

[duraleigh]

Hmm, that seems troublesome to me. Do you know for a fact they are metal stains?

I still see no reason to attempt clearing the stains in an algae laden pool.

I would get the pool clear and algae free and then address the stains....ignoring them until then.

 

[JoanC]

I feel pretty certain that the stains are metal.
One water test did show strong positive for metal when stains first appeared.
I need to give in here and go with your suggestion. I just hate stains.
Thank you for your patience with me. I don't mean to be hard headed. Yet, yes I am.
I truly appreciate your help and knowledge!
I have to know how things work to use them.
Presuming pool is filled with new clear water and stains on liner are identified (after chemistry appropriate for such)
I use product for stain removal. The ones I'm familiar with are sequestriants. This means the product is going to reach out and grab the stain molecules, hold on to them, condense them into particles that will either be rinsed or vacuumed away. Hopefully they will be and not leave sediment behind. I'm also told that metal never leaves the water but is only trapped by the sequestriants as long as your pool chemistry is exactly balanced. Thus, the reappearance of the stain if your chemistry gets off.
I've read tons on stain removal and followed written and verbal directions to the letter. I've seen both the sediment linger and the reappearance of the stain when chem balance varied even slightly. Stains can be a pool store owners money maker dream. I just hate dealing with the stains for fear of my past repeating itself.
No choice but to deal with them however.
Thank you again for your patience, knowledge and concern!
I'll get the pool clear, ID stain and find out on here how to clear that up!
You're great!

 

[JoanC]

Duraleigh,
I decided I would take a look at stain issues and came upon the quote posted reply, in quotation marks, from Jason Lion. The person with stain was going to drain his pool.
Now my question to you is, should I be draining mine?
We've had lots of rain! Ground very wet especially along one side of pool where water runs down bank to edge of pool. Liner is 7 years old but really faded from lots of shock.
My heart just sank over this. Your view please?
Thank you so very much!
Joan

"JasonLion wrote:
Even ignoring ground water issues, draining a liner pool below roughly 1 foot deep in the shallow end is not recommended, especially with a liner that is more than a few years old. It is unlikely that an older liner will survive the pool being refilled."

 

[duraleigh]

Don't drain it completely but leave at foot or so in the shallowest part. liner will stay in place.

Alternatively, drain only 50% refill and then drain 50% again. Each time you reduce the metal content (if that's what you have by the preceding level.

 

[JoanC]

Happy to see I can drain a good amount safely!
I so wanted to kiss the algae and Crud goodbye and see clear water again but not to be without much work and expense.

I truly appreciate your time with my problems which I've drug out.

Sincerely,
Joan

 

[JoanC]

I don't know why the stars appeared in the post above. I didn't write anything profane.
Please don't think I did.
Joan

 

[JoanC]

I'm back with continuing ignorance. Perhaps a bit better off than 11 days ago.
My green pool very quickly became a stagnant pond complete with pond scum after the additional rain came in.
I feared draining because the ground was saturated especially along one long side of the pool.
There is and embankment that has water runoff and water stands near the side of the pool with heavy rain which we've had a lot of lately.
Take the weight of the water out of the liner and there would be no counter weight against the saturated ground.
I don't recall how complete/structured the framing is behind the liner. I saw it briefly when the liner was changed years ago.

Anyway, I didn't drain the scum pond. It really did have scum! I shocked it with 6-8 packs of powdered shock. Don't recall how many. No idea what chemistry was. Wasn't putting my hands in that mess. Next morn it was cloudy emerald color so Better! Backwashed and kept waiting to see if it kept improving. It did keep improving.
Yes, I'm an idiot... took sample to new pool store. When I told the guy I didn't see my CYA on the report... get this... he said, he didn't either, but don't worry about it. He said just put this gallon of "conditioner" in which is stabilizer with other good things in it. Whatever. I needed something for stabilizer and didn't have time to go 25 miles to another pool store or figure out the BBB system.
Idiot here spent about $200 that day. I have more cents than sense it appears. I got one good thing which was liquid chlorine. I am glad to find that in a high concentration locally.
Haven't used it yet but have it.
Pool guy said put in clarifier and circulate x24 so I did it for 48 and kept brushing. Vac to waste a couple of times. Also got some sand off pool floor which hadn't had before.
To get to the point here: Water is clear!
Still have some sediment to vac to waste. I so hope to get it all at some point. This has been issue since last year.
Been putting 3" tabs in skimmer and nothing else. Trying to clean all debris, keep levels low to start on stains.

Stain: Ph and Chlorine are on low side and lucky to not have algae but want to do the ascorbic acid to get rid of stain per instructions on TFP. This is pretty much how I've done it before.
I put a couple of Vit. C tabs in pool and they cleared the stain almost instantly. Iron? Thought was copper but site says if reddish brown then prob iron. The natural chemistry AA is expensive so plan to order the bulk suggested in the instruction post. I can't remember the sequestrant suggested after the AA if you could remind me please.
I would still like to drain after trapping the metal but fear of liner pull off and collapse of the side wall from saturated ground is big risk.

IF I could drain a good portion of the water after the AA treatment and sequestrant, wouldn't it at least dilute the metals in the water?

I want to get to Clear and Stain Free of course. I would also like to go to BBB.
I tried uploading photos but the files are too large. I will add them later after resizing them.

Thank you for your expertise and experience! It is so appreciated!
Joan
I'm ordering one of the test kits on the site today but as of now I have AquaChek Select strips
Total Hardness -100
Total Chlorine - 1
Free Chlorine - 1
pH - 6.8
Total Alk - 40
CYA - 0

 

[duraleigh]

You will need to start a methodical, organized approach but I can tell from your post you can do this.

1. The only reason to drain is to get rid of the metals. I would confirm the presence of metals as the first step either by buying your own test or asking a pool store to specifically test for metals.

Don't buy anything yet!!!

If the metal test comes back more than .3 ppm iron content or more than .03 copper, then draining that off is the only way to get rid of it. If they come back negative, you can clear your pool without draining and we'll help all through the process but solve the metals issue first.

 

[JoanC]

Dearest, patient Dave,
I do want to be methodical and organized so as to not waste time and money.

I also yield to your knowledge on this.

1. Am I correct that you want me to test or have the "water" tested for metals?
I will take a sample to be tested.
I have Jack's test kit for stains but do not want to do the chem balance to identify since the ascorbic acid clears them.
To balance the chemistry for the stain test, in my opinion, would only waste chemicals and time.

2. Perhaps I was not clear about draining the metals. Irrelevant to whether there are metals in the water, I am supposing there are metals in the stains which will be lifted by the AA.
After the AA treatment lifts the stains, I am to use a sequestrant to bind the presumed metal. This is when I thought about at least a partial drain to decrease the amount of presumed metal in the water which has been sequestered whether from the stains or free in the water. At this point the sequestrant should bind any lifted from stain and any free in the water.
I realize the dilution would be minimal but any degree less would help in case I can't keep my numbers just right and the metal is released to stain again.

I reduced photos and added them. Water is very clear. Stains are reddish brown and pretty uniform except where debris was.
Light spot on step and in shallow where Vit. C tab placed on each. Sediment in bottom is still light debris and maybe some dead algae. Mostly old fine debris from last years stain treat, sequestrant, floc etc. also some sand.

Thank you again. Going to vac to waste before rain. Oh! I did order my test kit!! I'm excited!
[attachment=1:1ocdyi6g]P1020919.JPG[/attachment:1ocdyi6g]
[attachment=0:1ocdyi6g]P1020917.JPG[/attachment:1ocdyi6g]

 

[Jason B]

You will need to start a methodical, organized approach but I can tell from your post you can do this.

1. The only reason to drain is to get rid of the metals. I would confirm the presence of metals as the first step either by buying your own test or asking a pool store to specifically test for metals.

Don't buy anything yet!!!

If the metal test comes back more than .3 ppm iron content or more than .03 copper, then draining that off is the only way to get rid of it. If they come back negative, you can clear your pool without draining and we'll help all through the process but solve the metals issue first.

Cut a lemon wedge and hold it on part of the stain and see if the stain starts to disappear. If it does, it's organic and not metal. You can do this easily if you can't run out to get a test done right away.

 

[ivyleager]

JoanC,

The sequestrant recommended for iron stains is Jack's Magic "The Pink Stuff". It's what I currently use every other week. You've asked this question but it wasn't answered.

 

[JoanC]

Thank you Jason & Cary. Your help is truly appreciated as well as your concern. I will make a note of both items, get lemons and try the test for organics.
Finding the source of the stains would be good for future liners or if I happen to ever do a refill and have this one stain free.

Dave,

Noted to date:
Pool water tested Negative for Iron & Copper at pool store. -0-
Hose/faucet water also Negative for Iron & Copper at pool store. -0- (I have copper pipes feeding lines)
Areas that were covered in debris are not stained on pool floor. See photos of deep and large spot to left in shallow. (If the stains were organic wouldn't this be the worst stained areas?)
Lawn care Co. blowing clippings & dust into pool.
GA red clay is my soil. Iron.
Lawn care Co. had trouble controlling weeds in sod. Found out they applied iron more than once to kill them.
Specific instructions why neither of above could be done.
Best possibility of source thus far.
In all of this, please remember stains are carried over from last year. Were treated, sequestered, deposited and left to deal with this year.
Ascorbic acid does remove the stain.

Water is still clear. Very little debris left to vac to waste.

Pool store chemistry 2 days ago
FC 1.6
TC 2.0
TA 40
CH 75
CYA 0
pH 6.4

Today with TF-100
FC 2.0
CC 1.0
TC 3.0
TA 30
CH 150
CYA <20 dot obscured when full
pH 6.8

Only chlorine tabs have been put in skimmer since shock on May 11th & approx. 4-5lbs stabilizer after that.
Lucky no algae seen.
Pool store keeps telling me what to add. Not.
They didn't have stabilizer granules. They said their "conditioner" was the same. I needed it and got it. Haven't used it.
As I said I want to go BBB. I have concern about Borax after reading post about possibly not safe for animals to drink from pool with it. Clarify please.
I have polyquat 60.
Sodium bicarb
liquid chlorine 12.5% ( I haven't used liquid in years!)
The conditioner! for stabilizer.
Plus shelves full of other things I probably don't need.
I want to keep moving forward and not slip back since the green, scum pond is at least sparkling clear with stains at this point.
Thank you eversomuch!
Joan

 

[JoanC]

Dave/duraliegh,
I don't mean to be impatient but feel I need to be doing something.
I also have kids and granddaughters wanting to know when they can swim!

You told me in an earlier post to get some chlorine in and get my CYA up to about 30.
CYA is still not showing up. I thought I had left it in long enough before backwashing or waste vac but possibly not.
Thinking I'll add the Nature's Chemistry conditioner I have to get CYA up.
Probably need to add a little chlorine and also need to add the sodium bicarb to raise the TA.
Guess all of that in reverse since TA first is ingrained in me.

I'm thinking get TA, pH and FC up just a bit to do the Ascorbic acid treatment since levels will come down with the treatment.
Not sure about the chlorine. Where should it be to begin the treatment?

Of course you haven't given me the go ahead on doing it yet.

I realize you have many posts to read and respond to.
I thank you for giving your time and expertise to mine.
Joan

 

[duraleigh]

1. Exactly when did you add the CYA? Exactly when did you backwash?

2. It still isn't clear to me if you are trying to remove stains or get your water clear....you can't do both simultaneously as a rule.

I would suggest you get your water in balance, go swimming, and work on the stains at a later date.

 

[JoanC]

1. put CYA in week of May 12th after lots of powdered shock for major algae.
In rethinking when what was done, I do think I started backwashing too soon, middle or end of same week.

2. I would like to begin stain removal.
My water is clear. I can see perfectly through it. It is not balanced at all but it is clear.

3. Hopefully, the swimmers will be able to swim in another two weeks if I can get started on this. Maybe even sooner.

Thank you for your help!
Joan

 

[JoanC]

This was chemistry at approx. 11:00 a.m. today
FC .05
CC .05
TA 30
CH 150
CYA <20 or 0
K-1000 showed
Cl .5
pH 6.8

Water clear, able to see bottom well. By clear, I mean not cloudy at all and no discoloration of water.
pool liner remains with red/brown stain.
Air temp up and see very slight algae. Did vac to waste. Added 32oz of polyquat 60. Brushed all surfaces.

Put in approx. 8lbs of sodium bicarb to increase Alkalinity a little. Will recheck later today. Concerned AA will reduce Alkalinity when treatment begins and TA very low already.
I will begin the AA treatment soon per instructions I have found on the forum due to temps high and algae formation-growth almost certain with no chlorine.
There will be several days without chlorine and then more with it low. I will keep you apprised!

Joan