Picking parts for plumbing mods

[Gooserider]

Not sure if this is exactly the right place - parts would also work in the SWG area, and others would be better in the Pumping station, but overall it's a plumbing renovation... Should I split up the question?

As I have mentioned in the past, I'm a paraplegic due to a spinal cord injury about 3 years ago... We have gotten a lift to get me in and out of our in-ground pool, and I find swimming is good exercise for me...

However I've found that it is difficult for me to do the day-to-day pool chemistry testing and maintenance, particularly keeping up with chlorine additions.... I would like to see how much of the chemistry stuff I can automate, even though I know I can't totally avoid it... Seems like this means an SWG is the way to go.

In addition, our existing DE filter is a very old and obsolete model that is hard to get parts for, and has gotten very stiff to operate the backwash valve - at the very least it is likely to need new grids soon, it blew out several last season, which I replaced with old ones from a prior replacement, but I don't expect them to last...

Pool and existing equipment is described in my sig, but it's about 16-17Kgal, with one skimmer, three returns that appear to be plumbed in series, no other features, besides the Polaris pool cleaner and booster pump... All the existing plumbing is 1.5" and I don't see us replacing anything other than what is needed around the equipment area for dealing with changes to the system.

The existing 1HP pump is in good shape - no real reason to change it if not needed (I think)

So we need to replace the filter, and add an SWG. Cost is an issue, though we are willing to pay more for significantly better quality...

I'm thinking that a sand filter would be the best overall match for us than a DE - but how do I determine size? I know that oversizing can be good on a DE filter, but what about a sand unit? Also any advice on brands / models that are particularly good (or bad)?

Same question more or less on the SWG - I did see one post suggesting oversizing by 1.5-3X, what benefits does this offer? Does it make the cell life enough longer to justify the increased cost of replacement cells? I noticed in the place that does cell rebuilding that there seems to be just one series of cells that fits multiple brands of SWG, so what is the best way to decide which brand to get?

Also - a question on the electrical wiring - currently we have two 110V circuits to the pool equipment, one for the main pump and one for the Polaris pump. Both are controlled by time switches in our basement (which I can't get to) and a manual on/off switch at the pump area that can turn the pumps off if the timer has them on... (installed before I got hurt to avoid needing to run down to the basement to play with the manual switch on the timers) Can (per code) the SWG be connected to one of those circuits, or will I need to figure out how to run a third circuit for it?

Any other comments / suggestions / stuff I need to ask?

Thanks,

Gooserider

 

[msumoose]

I think that you have a 1hp super pump...but that model number doesn't exist. The one I saw was a SP2607x10, but my advice would not change....

You need a 3.25 to 4 square foot filter. That is based on a 20 gpm flow (the max the NSF allows in filters of this size), and your pump at very low head will have 65 gpm or less. The bigger it is the less you will have to backwash it. Any old brand that you trust (or will fit) would be ok - the sand is the star here. Just make sure you can get parts.

As for the salt system, please add it to the filter pump timer, but with some investigation first. It SHOULD not be enough amperage to make much of a difference, but you need to take a look at it to be sure that the load will not exceed the designed circuit. Adding this to the pump timer allows you to cut the run time on the salt system as well. Most of the systems I install are done this way if there is a timer.

 

[jblizzle]

Keeping all questions here is fine.

I agree that sand filter will be the easiest for you to manage and would recommend at least a 24" filter, bigger will require less cleaning.

The larger SWG cells allow you to run the pump for less time each day and maintain adequate FC ... this also should allow the cell to last longer. I would look for something at least sized for 40k.

Not sure if cost is a factor or not, but one thing to consider is that the SWG will tend to make the pH rise more quickly, you could offset this by installing an automated system to add acid for you. Both Pentair and Hayward (and others) have systems where the SWG and pH control are integrated into their automation systems.

If you just got the SWG, they are typically wired to the pump timer so there is no chance of them running when the pump is off.

If you were considering a full automation/SWG/pH system, they often come with built-in subpanels that I think may need to be run on a 230V circuit, so that would add complexity to the install, but could give you control of everything through a remote control if you wanted.

 

[Gooserider]

It was a while back when I did the wiring for the Polaris pump, but IIRC, both circuits are 15A, using AWG14 wire, and were set up to be on the same phase - so I couldn't tie them together to get 220, though that would be easy enough to fix by rearanging the breakers...

The pump model is what I copied off the label on the unit many years back - though I might have miscopied it, or had to guess at some of the letters due to corrosion and dirt. It does take the standard filter basket for Hayward pumps. I did have it rebuilt several years back, and I think the motor shop said that it was the higher pressure / lower volume version of the pump. The existing DE filter seems to run at around 15-25 PSI depending on how dirty it is. I should have plenty of margin on the circuit, as my recollection is that I only installed the second circuit for the Polaris pump because code said I couldn't do both pumps on the same line.

I haven't done a lot of research into models / brands yet, other than a quick look at the latest "In the Swim" catalog. They list a Hayward Pro Series with the multiport valve either on top of the tank, or on the side (for a lot more money) - is there any reason to prefer one over the other? Are there any other features I should look for (or avoid) in a sand filter?

I also noticed they mentioned a 6 position valve - our old filter had two positions, filter and backwash. what do the other 4 positions do?

Any reason to prefer a particular brand of SWG other than the extra monitoring / control functions that some have?

Also how weather-proof are the SWG systems? I do have an enclosure for our plumbing, though it may be to small for the sand filter, and need to be rebuilt, but it really only protects against direct rain and sun, so the SWG and panel will still be exposed to outside humidity, temperature, etc...

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

Another quick question - I seem to recall that there used to be a list of pool equipment vendors that gave discounts to TFP supporters or othewise looked for our business - I looked around and didn't see anything like that just now. Does that no longer exist or is it somewhere I missed?

Gooserider

 

[harleysilo]

discounts-t56400.html

Discounts are gone now.

I have a SWG. It is outside exposed to the elements so i don't' think you have anything to worry about there. I do have to address PH rise via MA addition on a regular basis, this year i've added borates to see if that helps. MA addition is easier than daily Chlorine addition for me anyways.

I wonder if having the ~3000 PPM of salt in your pool will corrode your new lift?

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks for the info on the discounts being officially gone - I did stick a post in the thread saying I welcomed PM's from any TFP reader / vendors that wanted to make offers (repeated here).

I'm not terribly worried about the salt getting to the lift - the stuff in the pool-school says the concentration isn't high enough that it causes many problems. In additon, the only parts of the lift that actually get wet is the seat, the arm it's attached to, and the supposedly water proof control dongle (which I try to keep out of the water as much as I can anyway) - all the mechanical and electrical bits are well away from the pool water - they get more wet from getting rained on... The seat is plastic, w/ stainless hardware, and the arm is either powder coated galvanized steel or aluminum. (It's an S.R.Smith portable lift that I purchased used, and have since done some extensive mods on because I won't buy overpriced proprietary parts, especially when I can make better quality for less money myself...)

ex-Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

More in the "dream stage" depending on what it costs, I've been looking at the Hayward site's AquaritePro's Sense & Dispense system, and notice they seem to have two approaches to countering the pH rise that apparently comes with an SWG in operation... One system uses CO2 gas to produce carbonic acid, the other dispenses (presumably) muriatic acid - though they really don't say what kind of acid it uses...

I notice the pool calculator only uses dry acid or muriatic, and doesn't mention CO2 at all. How does CO2 rack up in cost / effectiveness for pool pH adjusting? They seem to be pushing the CO2 basically because it is "safer" than muriatic acid, but does it have any other advantages?

How much of an issue is the pH rise anyway if one is using borates and the rest of the usual TFP suggested routines - if it is something that only needs to be dealt with a couple times a season, it hardly seems worth while to automate. OTOH, if it is something that needs weekly attention, it might be... (might also be worth an automatic sensor that tells you when to manually dispense???) Do typical SWG's give any kind of pH reading, or is that still an item to manually test for?

Gooserider

 

[jblizzle]

hard to say. Some people report that their pH is stable with a SWG after lowering their TA and maybe using borates. Others constantly fight rising pH. The SWG do not report the pH, you need a separate sensor.

The Hayward systems, like the pro logic, include the SWG, but then can be expanded to control the pH later if need.

Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks jblizzle... Looking at the Hayward website, seems like the Prologic and Aquaplus systems are total overkill for our setup - we don't have any lights or other water features in the pool, the only real advantage they offer is moving the pump control up to the pool area - which I could do just by adding a couple of outdoor timers and leaving the ones downstairs on all the time...

The Aquarite systems seem like a better match, but only the Aquarite Pro version seems able to add the pH stuff later - it may depend on what that costs over the regular systems...

Gooserider

 

[jblizzle]

You are absolutely correct.

Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short

 

[Gooserider]

Looking at more manufacturer sites, I have come up with a few more questions...

1. I have slightly conflicting size recomendations for a sand filter. Msumoose says 3.25 - 4 sq. ft. of filtering area, while jblizzle says at least 24"... Hayward and Pentair both seem to say that a 24" filter is only ~3.14 sq. ft., :? How critical is this? It seems like some of the filters that look interesting are only available in 24", and there is also a pretty fair price jump between 24" and 27" (though the really BIG jump is going over 27"). OTOH, 27" seems to be around 3.7 sq. ft., which is right in the middle of Msmoose's suggested size. Both sizes are significantly oversized for my pool, so my question boils down to how much difference in needing to backwash, etc. am I going to see between a 24 and 27" filter, and is it worth paying the extra to upsize? (FWIW, the bather load is light, but we get a lot of tree droppings, dead mice, and other such stuff)

2. Same theme - I see that there seem to be two basic styles of filters - top-valve and side valve. Side valve seems to cost more, all else being equal... Is there any significant reason to choose one over the other, and again, is it worth the extra for a side valve? I've done some reading on the forums, and I haven't seen any side-valve specific problems mentioned, but I've seen some mention of occasionally having problems when opening a top valve of displacing the laterals or other plumbing and therefore needing to change the sand - is this a serious issue? Does it justify a side valve?

3. I notice that there seem to be several different tank materials - mostly either thermoplastic or some variant on fiberglass - is there a reason to prefer one or the other?

Thanks,
Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

Yet another question - I'm not particularly looking for a pump, since our existing 1hp Hayward super pump seems to be running fine, and seems pretty reliable and trouble free... However I'm noticing that we can get a rebate from the power company if we get one of the fancier new energy saving pumps. In addition the websites claim huge 90% power savings... Leaves me feeling like I could be talked into one of these eco-pumps if it will pay back soon enough... In addition, at least some of the Pentair pumps claim to have built in timers - would that replace the time switch I have in the basement (which is a pain to change since I have to get someone else to go down and play with it...)

How reliable are the new pumps?

Are the energy savings "real" or are they mostly another way of getting "pool-stored"

Is it worth replacing a perfectly good (albeit probably less than efficient) working pump?

I know that for a lot of the other "energy saving" appliances it seems to make sense to get the energy saver if replacing something that died, but doesn't pay to replace something that still works...

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

bump

 

[jblizzle]

A 24" should be plenty big ... and if a lot cheaper, then that I what I would get.

I don't see why the location of the multiport valve matters ... get what is cheaper. I think there are +/- for each, but not sure what they are.

Don't know anything about the different materials

Don't believe the websites power savings claims. A VS is not typically worth it vs. a 2-speed pump unless your power costs are pretty high or you get a large rebate. Although most VS do come with timers. There are smaller VS pumps (Pentair i1 or the Hayward Super Pump VS) that are cheaper and if you can still get a rebate might be a better deal. Although if there is nothing wrong with your current pump, then hard to justify the cost. And if you more did go bad, a 2-speed more would still be a good deal cheaper.

See this for more info on pumps, specifically JasonLion's post in the middle:
energy-efficient-pump-recommendation-t59139.html

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks for the info... That pump thread is excellent, lots of good stuff there.... As I pointed out in that thread though, it may not be a possible option, as the pool is wired for 110V equipment, and so far every high efficiency pump I've been able to find is 230V only...

Will see how the numbers work out on the filter and such, I've been slowly going through a bunch of vendors to see what they have to offer - I have a good spreadsheet of manufacturer models to see what is made, but now it's a question of price checking.

Gooserider

 

[jblizzle]

As JL said there, you can get smaller 2-speed pumps that are 115V ... they are not quite as efficient on high speed, but you get significant savings on low speed over the efficient single speeds. And you will only need high speed when backwashing or vacuuming.

 

[Gooserider]

One possible advantage I'm seeing for the side valve filters is that my possibilities for reaching stuff and seeing what I'm doing are limited by being stuck in a chair. A top valve puts the valve up high and in the middle of the filter and I'm wondering if I'd have trouble reaching it. Also how much extra clearance does one need when getting that top valve off to deal with the sand as opposed to the simple cover on a side valve?

I've also seen several posts that mention people having problems with the lateral assembly coming out with the valve when opening a top-valve filter, how common is this?

I may be over planning, but I have found that I usually get a swamp when I open in the spring, often requiring me to backwash the existing DE filter 3-4 times in the first week. Then being mostly ok with one backwash mid summer, and being due for one in the fall when I'm closing anyway... I'm expecting that I might see a similar pattern with a sand filter, and would benefit from opening it up after the initial spring opening mess and doing a flush with the hose to remove the excess crud. If seeing / getting into the top is a challenge, would a side valve be much better?

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

I'm reaching a few conclusions on what to get...

The SWG is easy - The Compupool CPSC-48 not only appears to be one of the best priced units, but it also includes a pool-pump timer control, which is good since it will let me move the timer for the pool pump out of the basement (inaccessible) and out to the poolside.

Unless there is some reason not to (can't think of one) I'm figuring on leaving the existing basement time switches in place, but removing their trippers so they won't actually do anything... This is easier than trying to remove them. I will need to get a second outdoor rated time switch for the Polaris booster pump, but that is trivial...

The filter is a bit harder...

As I mentioned earlier, I think the easier access on a side valve filter makes it worth the extra for that. I'm mildly inclined towards the Pentair Triton II series, but the Hayward Pro-Series Side Mounts are also about the same price - any reason to prefer one or the other?

1. Looks like there is about a $150-200 difference between the 24" and 30" sizes - is it worth it to go bigger?

2. There is about a $ 25 - 30 difference between getting a 1.5" and 2" multiport valve. I know that the 2" is better from a head-loss standpoint, but given that the the pool plumbing is 1.5" (I might up the stuff on the pad to 2" but the lines to and from the pool aren't going to change...) is there any real advantage to the bigger valve?

3. If I go with the Pentair, it looks like at least one vendor is doing their "Clear-Pro" tech units for $40-50 more than the best price I've seen on them - is there any concensus as to whether the CP is worth the extra cost?

ex-Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

Re: Picking parts for plumbing mods - pulled the trigger...

I pulled the trigger this afternoon, and am getting the following....

CompuPool Salt Chlorine Generator CPSC48 Complete $708.99
Pentair 261173 Triton Multiport Valve Kit 1-1/2in. $89.99
Pentair TR60 Triton II Side Mount Sand In Ground Pool Filter with ClearPro Technology
Item Sku #: 140212 $495.99

Note the SKU on the filter - Pentair has different part numbers for the ClearPro and standard models of their filters, and at least some sites were selling the regular model numbers with descriptions that implied they were ClearPro - even when it was models that aren't made in ClearPro...

The standard model TR60 (Part #140264) was $470.00, I think it was worth the extra $30 for the claimed better filtration, assuming it works...

Ordered from Pool Supply World - got free shipping, and they were significantly less than the other places I looked...

Seemed like a good set of choices - hope I don't have reason to regret them...

ex-Gooserider