Using Trichlor w/inline feeder

[Raiken3712]

I've never used it but I have an in-line feeder next to my pool pump for Chlorine. I either want to use that or a floater with Trichlor to maintain a .5 ppm. I'm not sure how to adjust the thing it has a little knob where you can adjust it. I'm guessing this changes the amount of Chlorine that feeds.

I read that a 3 inch tablet will up the ppm 5.5 total and of course that would vary the amount of ppm per day. I have 3 inch and 1 inch tablets that I want to use. At some point I wanted to try to maintain the pool with just shock if that's possible.

I want the least amount of Chlorine I can use while maintaining clear water. I was wondering if its possible to just shock once a week rather than keep a constant amount of Chlorine in there. I wouldn't swim for a 1-2 days after shocking to let the Chlorine settle down. This is of course after using the tabs. I don't want to waste the tabs so that's why I'm trying to figure out how much to use to keep a daily .5 ppm. I've heard in Europe the standards are different but they maintain a .5 ppm without Algae issues. Perhaps they use something to supplement the Chlorine and its not possible to use .5 ppm levels with clear water without that?

Anyway any advice on limiting Chlorine as much as possible after I use my tabs and maintaining .5 ppm with the tabs would be greatly appreciated. Tips on adjusting the feeder would be nice as well.

Thanks

I've heard Ozone in combination with Chlorine might be an option, but not sure I want to do that just yet.

 

[JohnT]

You might as well give up on the pool if you are going to try that. 0.5ppm chlorine with the insane CYA levels you'll get from the trichlor will quickly lead to an algae mess.

 

[duraleigh]

Your inquiry is often asked on this forum. It will be EXCEEDINGLY difficult (read impossible) to maintain a .5ppm chlorine level and it is not what we teach. There are several reasons why but dosing and testing are a couple.....the precision is almost impossible to obtain.

Ozone is ineffective in an outdoor pool and there is no supplement to chlorine that will do as good a job as chlorine does.

What we teach is the proper management of chlorine in a pool and it is the cheapest, most effective form of sanitation you can use.

Regardless of what you read about Europe, they have identical issues and there is no magic bullet that allows them to overlook the basic facts of pool sanitation.

So, as often happens in these threads, I'll go ahead and ask.....why are you so adverse to chlorine? The drinking water in virtually every municipality in this country probably has about 1-2ppm chlorine so if you are attempting to minimize chlorine exposure, that would be a far more imposing source to begin with.

I think you may have some misconceptions about chlorine and perhaps we can help you understand what sanitation chemistry is safe and effective for pools.

 

[Raiken3712]

You might as well give up on the pool if you are going to try that. 0.5ppm chlorine with the insane CYA levels you'll get from the trichlor will quickly lead to an algae mess.

So are you saying I should just throw away the tabs that are already bought? I didn't think Tabs added that much CYA...I've got a leak though so I don't think that is an issue.

I'll likely lose the CYA that gets added from the tablets. So .5 ppm is too low to maintain with Trichlor? Sigh I guess I can't break up the tablets? Just wondering why that its so impossible.

I just want to use up what I have. I plan on changing to something else after I use up the tablets.

Even without the leak can't I remove CYA by manually removing water? I'm not sure why the CYA is such a big deal.

Anyway I'm new to the whole pool thing, but I would still like to keep a low Chlorine level. Whats the lowest I can manage with clear water? Since it seems to be .5 is impossible.

 

[Raiken3712]

Your inquiry is often asked on this forum. It will be EXCEEDINGLY difficult (read impossible) to maintain a .5ppm chlorine level and it is not what we teach. There are several reasons why but dosing and testing are a couple.....the precision is almost impossible to obtain.

Ozone is ineffective in an outdoor pool and there is no supplement to chlorine that will do as good a job as chlorine does.

What we teach is the proper management of chlorine in a pool and it is the cheapest, most effective form of sanitation you can use.

Regardless of what you read about Europe, they have identical issues and there is no magic bullet that allows them to overlook the basic facts of pool sanitation.

So, as often happens in these threads, I'll go ahead and ask.....why are you so adverse to chlorine? The drinking water in virtually every municipality in this country probably has about 1-2ppm chlorine so if you are attempting to minimize chlorine exposure, that would be a far more imposing source to begin with.

I think you may have some misconceptions about chlorine and perhaps we can help you understand what sanitation chemistry is safe and effective for pools.

So its impossible to maintain a clear pool on .5 ppm with an outdoor pool?

I use RO water so that's not an issue already as far as drinking. I plan on using a whole house filter to remove Chlorine/Fluoride in the future, but can't afford it at the moment.

I've read various articles on Chlorine and it sounds ideal to use as little as possible. I heard it was possible to have a .5 ppm with clear water so of course I wanted to do it.

Why wouldn't I want to reduce chemicals? I guess I really don't know how much it matters. If .5 is too low what is the minimum I can maintain with clear water?

 

[Stuamurr]

Here in the UK 1-3ppm for INDOOR pools with no Cyanuric Acid content is the norm, as for some countries in Europe their regulations do require ridiculously low amounts of Chlorine Residual in the ballpark you mention.

A Few issues for you to consider:

With Cyanuric Acid in your water, the effectiveness of Chlorine is reduced, a level must be maintained (See pool school CYA/Chlorine chart) pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock which lets the unbound (to CYA) chlorine residual maintain maximum effectiveness.

A Large majority of "European" pools with low chlorine residuals are using chlorine as a secondary disinfectant to Ozone or UV, but for the most these are indoors (Remember we don't get as much sun in Northern European Countries ;-)

I think you need to re-think your approach, for outdoor pools with CYA effectively managing a pool with 0.5ppm FC is pointless, forget also any teachings that you have in your mind that there is magical numbers such as 10ppm for the maximum amount of FC it is safe to swim in - once CYA is involved those numbers are further north, it is fairly normal for residential outdoor pool owners who get a lot of sun to run with FC residuals in the 8-10ppm range, please read the Chlorine / CYA chart, it's fundamental to adopting BBB or any advice given on this forum.

I think the most important thing I can convey to you is it's safer to have too much chlorine as too little though!

As for your question "how little can I run with, there is no set-in stone number, each pool is different and you should read the pool school article pool-school/recommended_levels for more information

 

[jblizzle]

There is likely just a misunderstanding about the FC and CYA relationship that you do not yet grasp (we have all been there) and that the reports you were reading were ignoring.

If you have 0 CYA, then 0.5ppm of FC would be safe and fine and no algae would appear ... But there are problems with this:
1. Most testing methods are going to struggle to be accurate enough to maintain 0.5 ppm
2. The CYA protects the FC from the sun. With 0 CYA in an outdoor pool, 0.5ppm of FC will be gone in hours or less due to the sun. So you would have to be constantly adding chlorine to try to maintain 0.5ppm at the same time the sun is destroying it.

Many public pools, especially indoor, do not have CYA and they maintain a FC of up to 2-3ppm ... this is extremely harsh on your skin and bathing suits.

What you want to pay attention to is the ACTIVE chlorine level ... see this chart:
http://richardfalk.home.comcast.net/~ri ... l/HOCl.htm

Looking at the first row with 0 CYA, you can see that for a FC of 2ppm (which is normal in a public pool), the "active" chlorine level is ~ 1ppm. For the 0.5ppm you mention the active would be ~0.25ppm

Now look at the row for CYA of 30ppm, for the same active level of 0.25ppm you would need a FC level of > 10ppm. While if you look at the pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock in Pool School, you can see that for a CYA of 30ppm, we recommend maintain a FC of 2-4ppm.

So our recommended levels would give an active chlorine level of 0.03 - 0.05 ppm which is 20X less than a typical public pool and 5X less than if you tried to maintain a FC of 0.5ppm with 0 CYA.

If you look at this extended chart that lead to the Pool School artical: chlorine-cya-chart-t2346.html
You can see that we would recommend around 0.1 ppm of FC in a 0 CYA pool, but that is entirely too precise in reality and the sun would consume it in minutes.

So to summarize: The CYA protects the FC from the sun, but you need to maintain a higher FC level to prevent algae and kill bacteria and viruses. At the same time the CYA is protecting the FC from the sun, it is also drastically reducing the "active" chlorine level and making the water much less harsh than would be found in a typical public pool (or even most tap water actually).

 

[Raiken3712]

There is likely just a misunderstanding about the FC and CYA relationship that you do not yet grasp (we have all been there) and that the reports you were reading were ignoring.

If you have 0 CYA, then 0.5ppm of FC would be safe and fine and no algae would appear ... But there are problems with this:
1. Most testing methods are going to struggle to be accurate enough to maintain 0.5 ppm
2. The CYA protects the FC from the sun. With 0 CYA in an outdoor pool, 0.5ppm of FC will be gone in hours or less due to the sun. So you would have to be constantly adding chlorine to try to maintain 0.5ppm at the same time the sun is destroying it.

Many public pools, especially indoor, do not have CYA and they maintain a FC of up to 2-3ppm ... this is extremely harsh on your skin and bathing suits.

What you want to pay attention to is the ACTIVE chlorine level ... see this chart:
http://richardfalk.home.comcast.net/~ri ... l/HOCl.htm

Looking at the first row with 0 CYA, you can see that for a FC of 2ppm (which is normal in a public pool), the "active" chlorine level is ~ 1ppm. For the 0.5ppm you mention the active would be ~0.25ppm

Now look at the row for CYA of 30ppm, for the same active level of 0.25ppm you would need a FC level of > 10ppm. While if you look at the pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock in Pool School, you can see that for a CYA of 30ppm, we recommend maintain a FC of 2-4ppm.

So our recommended levels would give an active chlorine level of 0.03 - 0.05 ppm which is 20X less than a typical public pool and 5X less than if you tried to maintain a FC of 0.5ppm with 0 CYA.

If you look at this extended chart that lead to the Pool School artical: chlorine-cya-chart-t2346.html
You can see that we would recommend around 0.1 ppm of FC in a 0 CYA pool, but that is entirely too precise in reality and the sun would consume it in minutes.

So to summarize: The CYA protects the FC from the sun, but you need to maintain a higher FC level to prevent algae and kill bacteria and viruses. At the same time the CYA is protecting the FC from the sun, it is also drastically reducing the "active" chlorine level and making the water much less harsh than would be found in a typical public pool (or even most tap water actually).

Thank you very much both of you for the resources. I read about the CYA making the active level lower and didn't take that into account. I wasn't trying to get a .5 with 0 cya. I'm currently trying to maintain a level of 25-30. So if I do that I can have a higher ppm, but the active level of Chlorine will be much less. This helps a bunch.

 

[DanielP]

You'll easily lose over 1ppm of chlorine every day from the sun. It will drive you insane trying to maintain .5ppm it's just too low of a number to maintain.

The trichlor/dichlor tablets will add CYA and yes you can remove water and fill back up to maintain a certain level. You also add Calcium Hardness using cal-hypo shock and after a certain level you need to drain water for that as well. However, if you use liquid chlorine for shocking and maintaining FC, you don't have to worry about CYA or CH increasing. If your CYA is low, go ahead and use the tablets for chlorination until CYA is 30-50 instead of purchasing stabilizer since you want to use the tablets you already have. If you don't use all your tablets keep them for when you backwash and add water back to the pool so you can raise the CYA again w/o buying stabilizer. If your calcium hardness is far enough under 400ppm go ahead and use shock when you need to shock until it's gone or you reach 400ppm.

 

[Raiken3712]

My last Leslie's test was 200 CH. We just raised CYA to 25 so I can use the tablets till I get to 50. We don't have that many tablets so maybe I'll use them all up by the time I get to 50.

I don't backwash I have a cartridge filter. I recently cleaned it but the water wasn't clear at the end. When you clean out cartridges is the water supposed to come out completely clear when you are done?

I guess I basically left stuff in there if it wasn't clear...I did it for awhile though..not patient enough I guess.

Are the green numbers on that one chart the minimums while the blue numbers are target or ideal?

http://richardfalk.home.comcast.net/~ri ... l/HOCl.htm

 

[jblizzle]

I am not sure what the colors stand for ... not important really. Just focus on this chart:
pool-school/chlorine_cya_chart_shock

 

[duraleigh]

Raiken,

Using up your pucks has nothing to do with maintaining a correct chlorine residual....you will be able to use them just fine by being judicious and being able to accurately test your CYA as it slowly rises. It's the .5ppm chlorine level that is the problem.

You should be thinking around 4-6ppm chlorine with a CYA of 50 ppm.

 

[Raiken3712]

Raiken,

Using up your pucks has nothing to do with maintaining a correct chlorine residual....you will be able to use them just fine by being judicious and being able to accurately test your CYA as it slowly rises. It's the .5ppm chlorine level that is the problem.

You should be thinking around 4-6ppm chlorine with a CYA of 50 ppm.

I think I understand thanks for the clarification. I'll make sure to track my CYA while using them.

Getting this pool cleared up is harder than I thought. Its currently still cloudy even though we just balanced it.

All the numbers are in range. There was a .5 ppm Combined Chlorine level perhaps that hasn't cleared yet? Leslie's told us to shock it with 3 pounds after getting the pH down from 8.0 and the cya up to 30.

I now have pH at 7.2 Chlorine is around FC is 3 ppm Phosphates are below 100 TA was 80 before treatment

If its not left over combined Chlorine what would be causing the cloudiness.

Somewhat confused. I think I've figured out the possible answer. Perhaps I need to retain a higher Chlorine level for a long time to remove the CC? After I added the three pounds the FC tested at 10+, but now its 3 so perhaps the CC isn't gone yet. I guess there are probably more details on the forum pages...lets see if I can find it before I get a response .

Ok just found a breakpoint chlorination calculator. If the calculator is a good one and I have the Breakpoint Chlorination idea right than its saying 11 pounds is needed to get rid of the Chlorine demand.

http://ecologicpool.com/breakpoint-chlorination

This is the calculator. Does this look right? If thats right does that mean I should have shocked it with 11 pounds rather than just 3?

 

[jblizzle]

Breakpoint is meaningless. No that is not the http://www.poolcalculator.com if that is what you were looking for.

The cloudiness could very well be dead algae and all you need is to filter it out.

Follow this shock process to be sure there is nothing living in the pool:
pool-school/shocking_your_pool

EDIT: What was in the 3 lbs of magic powder ( ) you added? And when did you add it? If it was cal-hypo, it could have caused the cloudiness.

You have to be adding more chlorine every day ... hourly if you are in the shock process.

 

[Raiken3712]

Breakpoint is meaningless. No that is not the http://www.poolcalculator.com if that is what you were looking for.

The cloudiness could very well be dead algae and all you need is to filter it out.

Follow this shock process to be sure there is nothing living in the pool:
pool-school/shocking_your_pool

EDIT: What was in the 3 lbs of magic powder ( ) you added? If it was cal-hypo, it could have caused the cloudiness.

Yes, its Cal Hypo. Hmm so Cal-Hypo can cause Cloudiness...how long does that last? Do I just need to wait for the pool to remove it through the filter?

I'm aware the breakpoint calculator isn't the same as the other calculator. I thought it was designed to show how much to use if you have combined chlorine which I think means the same thing as a Chlorine demand. That calculator doesn't work?

Would it be ok to run the pump at a higher speed to make the Filter work faster. The filter should be able to work at a higher rate as long as its rated for it. I think it should be, but I'm not sure if the filter is sized right. Its the one that came with the pool..not sure of the flow rate.

Let me go look at it.

 

[jblizzle]

chlorine demand is also meaningless ... follow the shock process.

The filter will capture more at lower flow rates, at high flow rates you could end up pushing some stuff through the filter. Of course too low a speed and you are not moving much water.

Please add your pool details and location as described HERE as it will help us help you.

 

[Raiken3712]

The Pump is about 12 feet away from the closest Skimmer and probably another 10-12 feet from the Skimmer near the shallow end. The first skimmer is near the deep end of the pool.

I've been using the pump at 1750 RPM for general circulation. Is this fine? I read that running the pump all the time has advantages, but that it needs to be a lower speed. They gave a GPM number of something like 45 I think. I'm not absolutely certain if 1750 gives a GPM of 45 with that distance.

Also the pump lines are all 1.5 inch. Should I include the pipe size in my sig? I haven't figured out yet what HP the pump is. I just know Speed one is 1000 rpm, Speed 2 is 1750 3 is 3000 or so and 4 is 3425 I think. I can alter the speeds up or down to different RPMs after clicking Speed 1 through 4 if an amount makes more sense than 1750.

I haven't figured out if I can set it for 24 hours. I've been pushing the Speed buttons to the max of 12 hours because I haven't figured that out yet.

 

[jblizzle]

I am not clear on what filter that is, but if it is 450sqft, then at least it is oversized for you pool which is good.

I think the most efficient speed for you pump is down around 1000 rpm (maybe even lower) as far as power consumption goes. The only reason you might need higher than that is if you are not getting adequate skimming action.

Really all we want to see in your signature as far as equipment is the Brand / Model / Size of your filter and pump and any other equipment ... the GPM rating is meaningless.

 

[Raiken3712]

I am not clear on what filter that is, but if it is 450sqft, then at least it is oversized for you pool which is good.

I think the most efficient speed for you pump is down around 1000 rpm (maybe even lower) as far as power consumption goes. The only reason you might need higher than that is if you are not getting adequate skimming action.

Really all we want to see in your signature as far as equipment is the Brand / Model / Size of your filter and pump and any other equipment ... the GPM rating is meaningless.

I just noted the GPM rate because it says that in the read before you post thing you linked too. I assume its not important though since you are saying you don't need it.

Not a problem. I think Blue Haven is a re-branded Hayward. I searched for Blue Haven 450 and Hayward Cartridges came up.

What flow rate would a 1000 rpm equate to? How do you figure that out? Is 45 GPM more than necessary than? I guess my calculation might have been wrong...I'm not sure what page I was reading to make the calculation, but I thought it was something above 1000 rpm to get a 45 gpm.

45 gpm according to the person I was talking to equated with a full pool turn every 8 hours. That means it would be 3 pool turns per day?

Should I change Blue Haven in my sig to Hayward? I'm pretty sure its a re-branded Hayward so its the same thing really I think.

http://goo.gl/YfFZh

Actually it appears its a Hayward 875 not 450.

 

[Raiken3712]

I note in your link

pool-school/read_before_you_post

it says it may take up to a week for the filter to clear dead organics. I guess perhaps I just need to maintain the pool chemistry and it should clear on its own if thats the case. Its probably just taking time to clear because the chemistry was unbalanced and it has dead organics that haven't had time to be removed.

Would it help remove things to use Floc? Also we haven't really brushed it well in awhile should I brush it before using the Floc?