New house and messed up pool

[bexamous]

So here is cliff notes:

-Bought new house with dirty pool and pump is currently not working.
-Two pool companies came out to take a look and both recommended we drain pool to clean it and get a new pump. One of the companies said they might be able to get current pump working but were not sure.
-If I try to turn pump on it makes some noise and breaker trips.
-The only clean out is on side of house, which is not ideal for draining pool.
-There are solar heating things on the roof, but previous owner says it doesn't work... did not say why. Oh and 2 story house.
-Pool is 16000gallons or so.
-Current pump is 2hp.
-Live in CA and we already use too much electricity and any additional usage, eg pump, is going to be at PG&E's tier 4 rage, $0.30/kwh or so.
-There seems to be two pumps actually, the main pump is 2HP and uses 2" pipe to pool. There is a second pump with like 1.5" pipe and it is 0.75hp.. I dunno what this is really for, lol.

So not really sure what I'm doing, but nothing is that hard to learn. Looking for some advise on where to start, I've tried to read up a bit but end up with conflicting information.

Some questions:
Both pool companies recommend we drain pool to clean it. The only clean out is on side of house which is not recommended. Even more everyone online acts like you should never need to drain a pool unless doing repairs. I've found some before/after pictures and seems like with right chemicals and working pump/filter you can clean anything. But why did both companies that looked at pool say to drain it? Seems like pain in the butt to drain it for number of reasons if it can be avoided-- well mainly I only have the clear out on side of the house and I have a sump pump but I'd have to get more tubing to reach. Wouldn't be end of world, probably put it on low speed and keep and eye on stuff in house, but still I'd like to avoid this is possible.

If I skip the draining plan my first step will be to get pump working. I'd like to just go buy a variable speed pump to try to save electricity at all costs... should I worry about the solar heating setup? Some seem to say if you need to pump to 2nd story the variable speed pumps are worthless because you cannot use any of the lower settings... but even if true, I wouldn't want to use the solar heating stuff all the time, right? At first I'd be fine bypassing it, and worst case later on if I get it working only certain times of the year I'll even want to use it, and if I'm then unable to use lowest speeds on pumps so be it? Is that reasonable? I'd rather get a bubble cover to try to keep heat in than spend extra money using solar heating on roof when possible.

Basically how bad an idea would it be to buy an IntelliFlo VF? http://www.amazon.com/Pentair-011012-IntelliFlo-Performance-230-Volt/dp/B000N56HP4

Order that today, try to get it installed this weekend, current filter seems good, and then look into chemicals needed to fix pool?

Also FWIW here is pool:

Closer pic of water grossness:

Current pump/filter setup:

Closeup of current main pump:

And other pump I don't know what it is for:

 

[jblizzle]

Welcome to TFP!!!

Likely both companies recommended draining because it is less work for them. Clearing a swamp with chemicals can be cheaper, but it take a time commitment of testing and adding chlorine almost hourly at the start ... they want to get in and out and onto the next job.

Given your high electric rates and likely available rebates (check into that), a VS likely makes sense. Also, it would easily be able to run the solar (when "fixed"), and the nice thing about the VS is that you can run it at the lowest speed possible to achieve that.

The other pump is a booster to run a pressure side cleaner. If you are not going to use one, then you would not need to replace that pump. There are pressure cleaners that you could use off of the VS pump as well, or get a suction cleaner, or get a robot, or just manually vacuum when you want.

Have your found and read Pool School (button at upper right of the page) yet? Do that a few times. And order one of the recommended test kits. The TF-100 is the best value and since you will be going through the shock process (see Pool School) to clear the pool, you may want the XL option and the SpeedStir is a good idea as well. See the link in my signature for a comparison of the test kits ... there is a West Coast distributor of the TF-100 that would get it to you quickly.

Here are a few links so you know what you will be facing.
Defeating Algae
Turning Your Green Swamp Back into a Sparkling Oasis
Shocking Your Pool

 

[jblizzle]

Oh. Please add your pool details and location as described HERE as it will help us help you.

Specifically of interest is the size of that canister filter. It looks small. And canister filters are the WORST at trying to clear a swamp because they are so quick to filter everything out and fill up and are not as easy to clean as other filter types.

And another note. That black pipe used to go to the solar is not schedule 40 PVC and should not be used in pressure applications.

If money was no object, I would suggest a new pump, a new bigger filter, and replumbing the entire pad.

But, we can help you get cleared up with as much or as little of that as you can swing.

 

[Isaac-1]

Ok, just a few general observations, the intelliflow pumps are generally well regarded around here, and I would say it is hard to go wrong with the one your considering. It may not be ideal for the solar panel installation, but will likely work, hard to know without a lot more details, most important would be height of panels above the pump.

It is hard to tell from your installation, but I suspect the booster pump is there for a pressure side cleaner as it does not seem to be associated with the solar plumbing (if the solar plumbing is the pipes going up and back down after the filter, if so are there cut off valves for the panels not shown above the photo).

I can't tell what model Hayward filter you have, but it seems partly disassembled in your photo, are you sure it works? what model? if a cartridge filter they can require frequent cleaning when trying to clear a swamp

Now down to your question on drain vs filter, part of this depends on your current test results, some things like CH can only be lowered by water replacement, so it you have high levels of CH or possibly CYA then a drain and refill may be your best bet. The other side of the question is will you be doing this yourself of paying someone. Clearing up a swamp like pool can be labor intensive in the initial stages this likely means dosing with chlorine every couple of hours and cleaning the filter as needed (each will get less and less often as the process continues for several days). If your at home anyway (on the weekend, etc.) it is no big deal to go out and test the chlorine level and boost it up every couple of hours (it only takes a couple of minutes to run the test and dump in a jug of chlorine), but if your a service person it means dropping by 4 or 5 times per day.

As to the problem with the solar panels, it is most likely an issue with leaks this may be an easy fix or they may need to be replaced, could be anything from simply tightening the hose clamps on the headers, to plugging leaking headers (possible on some brands of panels, but not all) or they could simply be warn out with too many leaks to plug even if they are a model that is plugiable.


Basically we need more information
Ike

 

[Bama Rambler]

At your electric rates a variable speed pump makes a lot of sense. Even with the solar (if you decide to get it working) you'll still be able to fine tune the speed so you're not using any more than is absolutely required to run it. I wouldn't worry about the solar and what's wrong with it right now though. The second pump is a booster pump for a pressure side cleaner. You don't have to worry about it right now either.

I've seen pools that look a lot worse than that cleaned up without draining. Do you know what your water costs are?
If your water costs are really low it may make sense to drain, clean and then refill but if they're not it's better to shock it to clean it up.
Can you tell how much debris is in the pool?

 

[JohnN]

Draining vs shocking is not just about water costs. If your CYA or CH is high, you will have no choice but to drain. You will have to get either the TF-100 or K-2006 from the west coast distributor (not sure of their name) in order to clear this properly.

 

[bexamous]

Filter is Hayward C17502 Star Clear Plus. It was all put together. I just now was taking it apart to see what the filter looked like, and how easy it was to get out... figure I'm going to have to be cleaning it often at first. Also I had been expecting the filter would need replacing, but to me it looked pretty good.... still pretty white at least. New filter is only like $80 but figure I'll try current one and see what happens, maybe once I get pool clean I'll get a new filter just to have a nice starting point.

Yes those two black pipes going up in the picture go two solar stuff on the 2nd story of house. Not sure exact feet but 20-30 feet or something. There is only a valve on the pipe on the left just out of picture. I'm not really worried about what is wrong with solar stuff right now, I see how to bypass, just perhaps one day in future I might get it working again and want to be sure the IntelifloVF won't end up being $1000 mistake.

The 2nd pump is on a loop all by itself, doesn't have any filter or anything so pressure side cleaner makes sense. I don't really care for it right now I can fix/replace it later or get some other sort of cleaning setup if needed. One of the pool guys who came by mentioned the cleaner thing in the pool was hooked up wrong. How important is this to clean pool at first? I guess just chemicals isn't going to be able to clean Crud off sides of pool very well, but I got a pole with a brush on it... probably can just sweep stuff to the main drain at bottom?

Also I'll work on getting water tested, I got some kit on hand I bought few days ago. I'll try it out and maybe end up just ordering TF-100 kit. Actually FWIW this is the kit I have on hand:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00107039U/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
In addition I hear I can take a sample of water to local pool store... if nothing else I'll see how numbers I can get on my own compare to correct numbers, heh. But yeah I had read CYA/CH is high a partial drain might be needed, but both of the places that came out did not mention that as reason to drain. Although I'll confirm this is not a problem before cleaning pool.

Also not sure what water costs, I can try to find out.

As for how much debris... past couple weeks it you could barely see the bottom in shallow end. But last week or so the water has been still and Crud has all fallen out of suspension I guess and I can just barely see bottom in the deep end. Doesn't seem like there is that much stuff, but hard to be sure. Well actually if I drag net along bottom of deep end I get some general organic matter, its not alot, I mean I can't get much in the net, more like I just stir it up a bit.

My goal is to try to do everything myself, at least try and if I fail I'll pay someone to do it, lol. I can spend weekend monitoring chemical levels if needed, or just work from home for a couple days.

My first steps I guess is I'll ordering Intelliflo VF now to maybe have by this weekend, and then get water tested soon as possible to make sure CYI/CH is too high? Oh and check cost of water. And read pool school thing a few times.

 

[bexamous]

Oh water is tiered, 0-900 cubic feet @ $3.12/CCF, 900-2300 cubic feet @ $3.32/CCF, then everything is $3.98/CCF.

So even at highest tier, 16000 gallons would be about $100, that seems pretty cheap to me? Maybe I should just drain it? I've got a sump pump. Should I be that worried about using the clean out on the side of the house? Or just keep an eye on everything? If I drain it I could also easily just pressure wash the sides.

Hmm. Should I be that worried about ground water level? It has not rained for a week or so. In Livermore CA but no idea how to figure out ground water level around here.

 

[JohnN]

First step, order the pump. Second, order the TF-100 or K-2006. Pool store results are worthless, and that kit you have does not test for both FC and CC, or CYA. Since you are on the west coast, you should order from http://www.poolsupplyworld.com

 

[bexamous]

Doh, yeah I just went downstairs to looking at kit and see it doesn't test CYA.

 

[Isaac-1]

It sounds like you have a plan, read pool school and read over some of the threads on clearing swamps, yours is not bad, but the more bio mass you can remove before starting the shock process the better, your pump set up does not have a diverter valve that lets you vacuum to waste, so you might want to add in a 3 way pool diverter valve in there between the pump and the filter when you install your new pump which you could attach a common cheap "backwash" hose to and vacuum up the worst of bio mass to the waste port to keep from clogging up your filter so much.

I also doubt you have any CYA issue, while the only way to remove CYA from a well managed pool is through water replacement, we find that CYA does tend to often break down due to certain bacteria in swamp like settings, testing is still indicated as this does not always happen.

If you do take samples to be tested while you wait on your on kit, I suggest taking them to 2 or 3 different pool stores, preferably ones that use drop based test kits. Even then results may be questionable, but it may give you some ballpark idea of your water condition, but don't buy anything, if they require a purchase to do free testing, then buy liquid chlorine you are going to need a lot of it anyway.

Ike

p.s. yes no CH or CYA on the test you have, if you want to practice with it fine, but about the only number in there that we would be at all concerned about at the moment is pH

also if you just want something to do while you wait on stuff to arrive, you said you have a sump pump, you could put it in the deep end and brush the biomass clouds towards it to remove the worst of the partly suspended gunk.

 

[cluelesslylazy]

I just went through the same mess at the place I just bought. I do suggest reading the pool school and the shock process. This forum has been invalueable to me in this process of being a first time pool owner. The new pump and test kit are the right start.
As for the my pool, I did end up with a clear pool using chemicals, but I had so much suspended mess I ended up draining it. I will tell you I should have done this from the start. This was by far the quickest way to clean it being as i do not have a lot of time off. After draining I pressure washed it checked the plaster (found a few bad spots) acid washed it, fixed the light, then refilled it. I will tell you my pool was badly neglected and I will be getting it replastered at the end of the season. If you think about trying to clear it with chemicals get a good brush and pole you will be doing a lot of scrubbing if your pool was any thing like mine. Good luck in whatever you choose.

 

[Bama Rambler]

I think I'd do as Isaac said and take the sump pump and start getting as much of the debris out as you can. Then you can decide if you want to drain, clean and refill it or if you want to shock it clean. Even if you drain and clean it, you're still going to have to shock it but it should be a short process.

 

[bexamous]

So got pump installed and its awesome. Started to do chemicals but then changed mind and we drained it, well still in process of draining, few more feet... for our little sump pump with the 8 foot height to ground level that is like another 8 hours, lol. Oh and bottom of pool was gross, deep end has like 1/2" of gunk.. like rotted organic material. Not even leaves or something, just mush. I should have added a valve so we could vac to waste but did not. When we realized how much gunk there was that played a lot into just draining to clean it out.

Anyways, I was washing all gunk off surface and its clean-ish but doesn't look very good. What causes this discoloration and how do I fix it, lol? Or do I have to get it resurfaced?

Pool:

Closer up:

Oh and should I fix this chip?

 

[bexamous]

Oh and one other thing. I replaced the pump and had to redo some of the pcv pipe. I was happy to see all the stuff I did worked leak-free. However, the PVC gate valve between the pipes going going up to and down from the solar (seen in picture in OP) leaks. Like it drips every so often on its own, but if I just touch the.. handle? The red thing you turn, cannot think of correct word, lol. But if I just touch it almost lightly as possible water almost sprays out.

I went to both Home Depot and Lowes to try to buy a new one, hoping I could repair the current one without cutting it out. Hoping some washer or something was damaged. However neither store had them, they just sold PVC ball valves. The guy at Home Depot said PVC gate valves all fail and to either switch to a PVC ball valve or get a metal gate valve.

Should I:
1. Order a replacement PVC gate valve online? I'm sure someone sells them.

2. Get a PVC ball valve locally and use that

3. Get a metal gate valve?

 

[jblizzle]

I would vote:

4. An actual pool valve (like the Jandy Neverlube)

Actually the best solution would have been to use a pool 3-way valve could be turned to divert some/all of the water to the solar ... with that, it is easy to add an actuator to automatically turn on the solar if heat is available.

BTW, those sweep corners do not look like schedule 40 pvc and may not be rated for pressure. {Oops, just realized I already pointed that out in an earlier post}

 

[bexamous]

Thanks, that sounds like best idea, I didn't even know there was something better.

I'll get one of these to divert flow up to solar:
http://www.amazon.com/Jandy-4715-3-Port ... m_sbs_hi_1

And then on the return back down put on one of these checkvalves:
http://www.amazon.com/Jandy-7305-180-De ... _lg_text_y

Actually do you need a checkvalves both pipe going up and one going down? Or is just one checkvalve enough?

Also yeah I'll remove much of that non-schedule 40 pipe. Actually I /think/ it might go up all the way to the roof. I'm not sure exactly its painted over. I need to scratch off a bit of paint and see if it switches back to schedule 40.

 

[Isaac-1]

There is a lot of debate about the use of check valves, some say you need one coming out of your filter and one coming back down from the roof top solar, others say that one coming back is enough if you have a drain down bypass or solar diverter valve that does not have a positive seal. The issue is potential for back flushing your filter into your pump, some filters have built in one way duck bill valves (not true check valve) that seem to work for this purpose.


Ike