Contract review assistance needed for IG build in SoCal

[jv92red]

Hi All,

Been getting several quotes over the past few months and have settled on one, maybe two builders. First contract came in, please take a look and see if there is anything missing that needs to be added or changes needed:

*15' x 35', 94 perimeter foot, free form pool, depth 3.5' to 7' . 7' spa raised 18", to spill into pool. Spa to have 5 jets and air button control. (spa to be faced in ledger stone but this is not mentioned on the contract)
*NPT Stonescapes Pebble finish, cat 1 or 2 (this was a $2,925 upgrade from plaster. includes mini or regular)
*1250 SF of Belgard Urbana paver decking (This is a $1,562 add from standard Catalina or Cambridge )
*Travertine coping, honed and bullnosed (this is a upgrade of $1,225 I asked for over the standard brick)
*Installation of schedule 40 PVC, up to 3" in diameter (would like this to say 2" minimum correct?)
*Auto fill included
*Dual suction main drains for anti-entrapment with anti-vortex safety main drain covers
*install 1 1/2" gas line from meter to heater location
*Jandy 460sq. Ft Cartridge filter (I believe builder said DE can be substituted without charge but this is not in writing. Still up in the air on if I should do DE or just cartrige)
*Jandy variable speed high efficiency pump
*Jandy 400K BTU low emission/High efficiency heater
*Jandy ei Salt system (this is a $1,300 upgrade) (should this be upgraded to a bigger or more permanent Jandy salt water system? Pool builder says Jandy rep recommends the ei system as it's newer than the PLC1400 unit. Jandy ei system looks like a retrofit system but not sure this is really a negative?)
*Pneumatically placed gunite/shotcrete pool shell. On site deputy inspector used where required
*installation of electrical from service panel to equipment
*pool and spa to be continuously bonded
*Per code a convenient outlet within 10-20' of pool water edge
*all outlets, equipment, pool/spa lights protected by GFI's
*3 standard 400-500W white incandescent lights; two in pool, one in spa ($425 for the extra light in pool. I chose not to do LED as it was $400per light upgrade and I figure I can modify them at a later time for much cheaper)
*4' round firepit faced in the same ledger stone as the spa and brick capped w/gas line tee'd off from main line to pool heater.
*comprehensive deck and planter drainage system out to street.
*5 year warranty on masonry(tile,coping) lifetime warranty on pool shell, 10 year warranty on pool interior finish, manufacturers stated warranty on pool equipment(usually 1-3 years)

There are many other T's and C's I didn't list but the above is all the major stuff.

My question with this initially is: there is no mention of # of return lines and suction lines besides the 2 main drains. How many are needed of each? No mention of skimmer so I assume there is one there. Do I ask for 2? Do I really need 2? Not often windy where I live so not sure this is needed...? and any other things missing tht should be added or need to be changed?

Thanks for your help!

 

[CraigMW]

Some thoughts...

LED lights like Intellibrites or ColorLogic fixtures price out between $400-600. It might make sense to go with those now if you plan to switch out down the road.

You should be able to get a 3-year warranty on all pool equipment if you purchase from the same supplier. I know that Pentair does this.

No automation system planned?

Do they plan to add a cleaner line of some sort? You will benefit from either a suction or pressure side cleaner. You could get a robotic cleaner, but they are pricey. Have them throw in a 2" PVC line terminated at the pool equipment pad so you can add a cleaner down the road.

What's the overall quote price?

 

[jv92red]

Thanks for the info. The color changing LED was quoted as $400 per light upgrade so $1,200 extra. I am not really wanting to go with color changing LED's but standard white LED light itself is a for sure; maybe not now but down the road.

Not really sure about automation yet. Was another ~3k and was thinking this can be done in the future if needed. Was trying to keep the cost down. Pool & spa was quoted at ~$45k. Then with ~$8k in upgrades already to that and another ~$10k for decking we're coming in at ~$63k for the total project.

I asked about adding a suction line dedicated for a cleaner, we'll see what they come back with. One of my other quotes had that included as standard and it does make good sense.

edit: oh, and congrats on your 666th post!

 

[Guest]

What does the pool automation do?

 

[CraigMW]

Thanks for the info. The color changing LED was quoted as $400 per light upgrade so $1,200 extra. I am not really wanting to go with color changing LED's but standard white LED light itself is a for sure; maybe not now but down the road.

Not really sure about automation yet. Was another ~3k and was thinking this can be done in the future if needed. Was trying to keep the cost down. Pool & spa was quoted at ~$45k. Then with ~$8k in upgrades already to that and another ~$10k for decking we're coming in at ~$63k for the total project.

I asked about adding a suction line dedicated for a cleaner, we'll see what they come back with. One of my other quotes had that included as standard and it does make good sense.

edit: oh, and congrats on your 666th post!

Yeah, I just noted that "mark of the beast," so I quickly posted something on an old post about my SWCG!

Seems like a reasonable quote. Amazing how expensive it is though!!! I guess we were lucky, because when we purchased our home about 4 years ago, a pool came in the bargain. Well, the price of the house... that's a different story!

Another thought on the LED... depending on which "stock" lights you are having installed, you might be able to replace the bulbs inside with LED replacements made specifically for pool lighting. There are ColorSplash lights in white and color that you can use for this:

http://www.inyopools.com/lights_jjelectronics.aspx

I would suggest that you specify 12V fixtures. This may require a bit more $ than 120V lighting due to the need for a 12V transformer (like the Intermatic PX300) but I am strongly against putting 120V lights in the pool for safety reasons. Of course, they will need to have this circuit GFCI protected for code.

As for automation, I agree that an additional $3K kind of makes it not worth it. That's kind of a bummer, because automation can really enhance your experience, but it is something you can certainly add later. I will say that Pentair's IC40 costs about $1K on its own, but bundled with an EasyTouch 4, only adds about $300 more to the cost (at least with just the panel). I'm not sure about the Jandy stuff. BTW, do check into the warranty issue to see if Jandy, like Pentair, will extend the warranties to 3 years since you are buying all Jandy equipment. It's really nice to have a couple of extra years of coverage should something fail.

 

[jv92red]

Expensive is right! And this was one of the lower quotes I received out of 7 quotes total (one was lower but I had reservations about that one). Two of the quotes were fiberglass (Viking shell) and came in more than this and the highest was a gunite/shotcrete pool that was 90K and was a verbal during the initial visit! Builder said rather than sending me a quote I would need to contact him if I wanted to proceed. Uh... No thanks.

Builder came back and said pipe size "would be to code" along with yes on the vacuum port and three returns. Need to ask about voltage on the lights.

 

[ping]

I suggest reading the sticky from onbalance, a-bicarb-start-up-guide-for-tfp-members-t57316.html. Onbalance has a lot of great information about plaster throughout TFP.

As far as the lights go, upgrading the lights now is the time to do it. I was thinking just like you about the lights, but after a year I wished I had installed the LEDs and you will not save too much by doing it yourself. The colored LED lights should have white included so I'm thinking the colored lights would be the best option. The ColorSplash lights do not work with Jandy light housings. I already researched this and the manual says they work with Hayward Astrolite SP058 Series or
Pentair Amerlite 784 Series only.

If you do go with a Jandy SWCG, go with the Aquapure. Both of the the Jandy SWCG's have had their problems and what not, but the Aquapure is a better system. Mine was installed for a $1000 upgrade. I have had problems with the trisensor, but the latest one has been working fine for the last 6 months and hopefully they have solved the problems with the trisensor.

Automation is nice and might pay for itself by being able to fully control what speed you want the pump to run at. I installed solar after the install and I have a 2-speed pump, but I wished I had a VS with automation so I could dial in everything to run optimally. With our high electrical rates it wouldn't take much to save a lot.

I suggest to figure out what you want and then get your final quotes. There is a lot of markup in the extras and If you decide you want some of them, negotiate the price down.

 

[CraigMW]

Thanks for chiming in, Ping. I didn't realize that those ColorSplash bulbs wouldn't fit into a standard fixture. Maybe the OP could just ask the builder to install the niches and remove the fixtures from the quote. Installing these is really simple, but a $400 upgrade charge for each seems excessive to me.

I too like the flexibility of our automation system, especially since it controls not only the pump speed, but also valve positions. It's great to be able to turn on the spa vs. pool mode from a single button from the kitchen, but not a huge deal. What is more important to me is that I have a third actuator that controls the cleaner suction line. I have my system programmed to run the skimmer for most of the day, and then to switch the cleaner line on (and bump up the pump speed) to run our MX8 suction side cleaner. It really helps to reduce maintenance. Again, this is not absolutely necessary, as it is possible to set that valve manually. Our Intelliflo variable speed pump has a built in timer, so running at different speeds during the day could be accomplished directly at the pump without an automation system. I think the OP could easily add this later without any issues now.

 

[ping]

Thanks for chiming in, Ping. I didn't realize that those ColorSplash bulbs wouldn't fit into a standard fixture. Maybe the OP could just ask the builder to install the niches and remove the fixtures from the quote. Installing these is really simple, but a $400 upgrade charge for each seems excessive to me.

The retail pricing is about $300-$400 more per light to go from a standard light to LED . So, they are towards the upper end of retail but they are not excessive.

 

[jv92red]

Thanks Ping and Craig. I went ahead and signed with this builder I'll have to create a new build thread when the build starts which will be several weeks until financing is sorted out.

Ping, can you elaborate on what information you know about Jandy's Aquapure ei SWCG system vs the Aquapure PLC1400 SWCG system? There is very little information regarding the Jandy's Aquapure ei system on this site when I searched but I believe this system is relatively new for Jandy so hard to say. Perhaps this kind of thing comes down to bigger is better with SWCG units in general given the bigger ones go longer before needing to be replaced so in that respect the Aquapure PLC1400 is 14 blade vs unknown cell count on the ei series. Or would the cell count not equate to surface area? Or would it be because of something else altogether?

You have me reconsidering the LED upgrade. I don't want to have to run into upgrade problems later trying to get LED's into incandescent housings. Wife and I have been considering a cheaper paver choice since we've been in negotiations that would allow us to mitigate the LED upgrade cost. We Just thought before in downgrading the paver choice we were looking for some savings to get us down closer to 60k for this project but looks like the money is best spent upfront for the LED lights. Builder has made it clear small changes to the design of the layout and equipment should not be a problem if they do not increase the cost in materials or labor so this change would be about a wash or $150 change in their favor after the swap which they also indicated would be credited back.

Builder has included some kind of spa controls within the spa, so this is it for automation for now. I do see the value in adding a full scale automation interface but at this point after financing comes through we'll be right at the point where anymore incurred expenses and we're digging into auxiliary funds which was what we wanted to avoid.

 

[ping]

There hasn't been too many reviews of the ei, but from what I've read from Christian at PoolSupplyWorld is that they have had a lot of problems with the reliability of the ei. It doesn't have the control ability of the Aquapure 1400 either, as it can only change the output % in increments of 20%. It seems more like a plug and play for the home owner who doesn't have the ability to install the Aquapure 1400. The 1400 should last longer than the ei as it is rated for a larger pool than the ei. I believe the ei requires a higher salt content, 4000 ppm, compared to 3000 ppm for the 1400.

Another thing to consider is the 1400 will take up more room in the plumbing, which is better in the fact that you will have more room in your plumbing in the future to install another brand of SWG if you ever change out the system. The 1400 is the more traditional install compared to the ei.

On a side note, read up in Pool School and learn all about the chemistry of the pool. I highly suggest buying the TF100 test kit before you complete the pool. See my signature for the link.