What is the shelf life of a phosphate remover such as Phos Free and a colloidal silver algaecide such as Silver Algaedyn?
Shelf Life: Phosphate Remover, Colloidal Silver
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Not being smart, but since neither of those products are recommended here this is probably not the best place to ask that question.
I'd think a call to the mfg would yield the most accurate info.
I'd think a call to the mfg would yield the most accurate info.
Phosphate removers are never recommended, and the only time algaecide is recommended is upon winter closing and then it's optional. A lot of us never add algaecides to their pool when closing and open to a completely clear pool.
I mentioned these comments to a fellow pool tech:
"Phosphate removers or algaecides are not needed in an adequately chlorinated pool."
"Phosphate removers are never recommended, and the only time algaecide is recommended is upon winter closing and then it's optional."
His reply was:
"In a perfect world."
"Phosphate removers or algaecides are not needed in an adequately chlorinated pool."
"Phosphate removers are never recommended, and the only time algaecide is recommended is upon winter closing and then it's optional."
His reply was:
"In a perfect world."
Well then I live in a perfect world (and so do lots of others here). :-D
I've never added algaecide or phosphate remover to my pool and I've never had to shock my pool AND I've never had algae! Heck, I don't even know what my phosphate level is and don't care.
I've never added algaecide or phosphate remover to my pool and I've never had to shock my pool AND I've never had algae! Heck, I don't even know what my phosphate level is and don't care.
Does the pool tech know what an adequate FC level is? And understand that it is variable depending on the CYA level?
Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
Your chlorine levels if you test weekly are probably not kept up properly and, if you test bi-weekly, you are BEGGING for algae to get a foot hold.
We suggest a simple OTO Chlorine test daily and an accurate FAS/DPD chlorine test weekly. Anything less than that will head you down the algae path.
We suggest a simple OTO Chlorine test daily and an accurate FAS/DPD chlorine test weekly. Anything less than that will head you down the algae path.
Sounds like "perfect world" = being a pool owner and checking the pool every day ... which is really the main audience of this forum.
Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
Count me as another pool owner that has not used either. With that said, maintaining pools owned by someone else weekly instead of daily by the owner can be quite different animals.
Guys, we're talking about a service tech here, not a homeowner. A once a week visit is a completely different situation than being able to add chlorine to the pool every day or two or even twice a week if a mostly opaque pool cover is used.
If you don't want to have a high CYA and do significant FC swings using chlorinating liquid, say from 14 ppm down to 4 ppm using 100 ppm CYA (which companies such as Pool Chlor do), then some form of algaecide or phosphate remover is going to be needed if you don't have any chlorine dosing during the week. You can view a phosphate remover in the same vein as an algaecide. They both prevent algae growth, but in different ways. A phosphate remover is generally expensive, but if the pool water doesn't get additional phosphates added to it then it may be mostly a one-time expense to remove phosphates. Check the phosphate level in the tap water looking at the municipal water quality report since phosphates are often added as a corrosion inhibitor. Note that HEDP metal sequestrants add a lot of phosphates to the water so you don't want to use this approach if you've got metal in the water and need to sequester it.
Another approach to keeping algae at bay is to use Polyquat 60 algaecide and that is something that should last through the week, but it must be added every week.
Even with the above techniques to prevent algae growth, an outdoor pool with chlorine is unlikely to have the chlorine last through the week unless you start with a fairly high level. Note that though 14 ppm FC sounds high, with 100 ppm CYA it actually isn't that high and is roughly equivalent to around 0.15 ppm FC with no CYA in terms of the active chlorine level.
This is why many service techs use Trichlor pucks in a floating feeder or inline chlorinator. It provides continuous chlorine, but with the downside of increasing the CYA level over time. If you don't raise your FC level as the CYA level climbs and don't use an algaecide or phosphate remover (or are lucky with water very low in phosphates), then the pool can get algae. The pool store I go to in my area services over 2000 pools out of two store locations and they use the Trichlor approach with a 4.5 ppm FC target and they do a partial drain/refill when the CYA gets to 100 ppm. Some of the pools get algae as the CYA gets high (no surprise here) and they use a phosphate remover when that happens. So everyone has a somewhat different way of handling this, but the basic principles of why some methods work and others don't are the same.
If the pool has a saltwater chlorine generator, then there is no need for any algaecide or phosphate remover, but you do need to follow the FC and CYA recommendations on this forum since the manufacturer recommendations of 1-3 ppm FC with 60-80 ppm CYA is not sufficient to prevent algae (it should be 4 ppm FC minimum with 80 ppm CYA). See Water Balance for SWGs for more details.
As for colloidal silver, I don't get the point of using that. I could understand using copper to prevent algae growth or a combination of copper and silver to prevent both algae and bacteria, but such products can result in metal staining of pool plaster unless you are very careful with the level of metals and keep the pH from rising too much.
As for the shelf life, it's essentially forever for the lanthanum chloride in phosphate removers, but those that also have built-in clarifiers (such as those from Natural Chemistry), the life may be shorter, but I'm not sure. For colloidal silver, the silver will last a very long time, but I don't know how long the colloid will remain in that state.
On this forum, the approach for residential homeowners is one of only adding what you need to the pool and doing minimal maintenance that is reliable, but this is more frequent when adding chlorinating liquid or bleach. By not using stabilized chlorine as a regular source of chlorine, the CYA level is stable and one can then just keep a proper FC/CYA ratio to prevent algae growth. No algaecides, no phosphate removers, no clarifiers, no flocculants, no enzymes.
If you don't want to have a high CYA and do significant FC swings using chlorinating liquid, say from 14 ppm down to 4 ppm using 100 ppm CYA (which companies such as Pool Chlor do), then some form of algaecide or phosphate remover is going to be needed if you don't have any chlorine dosing during the week. You can view a phosphate remover in the same vein as an algaecide. They both prevent algae growth, but in different ways. A phosphate remover is generally expensive, but if the pool water doesn't get additional phosphates added to it then it may be mostly a one-time expense to remove phosphates. Check the phosphate level in the tap water looking at the municipal water quality report since phosphates are often added as a corrosion inhibitor. Note that HEDP metal sequestrants add a lot of phosphates to the water so you don't want to use this approach if you've got metal in the water and need to sequester it.
Another approach to keeping algae at bay is to use Polyquat 60 algaecide and that is something that should last through the week, but it must be added every week.
Even with the above techniques to prevent algae growth, an outdoor pool with chlorine is unlikely to have the chlorine last through the week unless you start with a fairly high level. Note that though 14 ppm FC sounds high, with 100 ppm CYA it actually isn't that high and is roughly equivalent to around 0.15 ppm FC with no CYA in terms of the active chlorine level.
This is why many service techs use Trichlor pucks in a floating feeder or inline chlorinator. It provides continuous chlorine, but with the downside of increasing the CYA level over time. If you don't raise your FC level as the CYA level climbs and don't use an algaecide or phosphate remover (or are lucky with water very low in phosphates), then the pool can get algae. The pool store I go to in my area services over 2000 pools out of two store locations and they use the Trichlor approach with a 4.5 ppm FC target and they do a partial drain/refill when the CYA gets to 100 ppm. Some of the pools get algae as the CYA gets high (no surprise here) and they use a phosphate remover when that happens. So everyone has a somewhat different way of handling this, but the basic principles of why some methods work and others don't are the same.
If the pool has a saltwater chlorine generator, then there is no need for any algaecide or phosphate remover, but you do need to follow the FC and CYA recommendations on this forum since the manufacturer recommendations of 1-3 ppm FC with 60-80 ppm CYA is not sufficient to prevent algae (it should be 4 ppm FC minimum with 80 ppm CYA). See Water Balance for SWGs for more details.
As for colloidal silver, I don't get the point of using that. I could understand using copper to prevent algae growth or a combination of copper and silver to prevent both algae and bacteria, but such products can result in metal staining of pool plaster unless you are very careful with the level of metals and keep the pH from rising too much.
As for the shelf life, it's essentially forever for the lanthanum chloride in phosphate removers, but those that also have built-in clarifiers (such as those from Natural Chemistry), the life may be shorter, but I'm not sure. For colloidal silver, the silver will last a very long time, but I don't know how long the colloid will remain in that state.
On this forum, the approach for residential homeowners is one of only adding what you need to the pool and doing minimal maintenance that is reliable, but this is more frequent when adding chlorinating liquid or bleach. By not using stabilized chlorine as a regular source of chlorine, the CYA level is stable and one can then just keep a proper FC/CYA ratio to prevent algae growth. No algaecides, no phosphate removers, no clarifiers, no flocculants, no enzymes.
I think chem geek summed up this thread nicely. Once again, it points out how differently a pool owner can manage his pool than someone who visits for an hour on a weekly or bi-weekly basis.
All of our advice is geared towards the pool owner....not service people. Far too often, service people dismiss our approach without thinking it through. We all understand the time constraints of a service company and that some of what we teach is not workable for them. Over the years, service companies often take offense at some of our advice because it is not applicable to them.....we never intended it to be.
I'll add two thoughts.....
1. Service folks.....do not be closed-minded to the pool water chemistry you can learn here. The science behind it is rock solid and allows you to better understand just how simple pool chemistry CAN be if you let it.
2. Pool owners......take service peoples advice with a grain of salt. They are coming at this subject from a very different viewpoint and much of what they practice is perhaps not the best way to do things but, given the time restrictions, it's what they have to do.
All of our advice is geared towards the pool owner....not service people. Far too often, service people dismiss our approach without thinking it through. We all understand the time constraints of a service company and that some of what we teach is not workable for them. Over the years, service companies often take offense at some of our advice because it is not applicable to them.....we never intended it to be.
I'll add two thoughts.....
1. Service folks.....do not be closed-minded to the pool water chemistry you can learn here. The science behind it is rock solid and allows you to better understand just how simple pool chemistry CAN be if you let it.
2. Pool owners......take service peoples advice with a grain of salt. They are coming at this subject from a very different viewpoint and much of what they practice is perhaps not the best way to do things but, given the time restrictions, it's what they have to do.
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