Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

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L

LotusRacerX

0
Jul 25, 2012
101
Georgia
I have been searching on this site, and it seems the experts here conclude that it is not possible for air bubbles to originate on the "pressure" side of the pump, which would include the filter and spider valve.

I submit my symptoms/diagnostic tests to you:

In "Filter" mode, air bubbles can be heard running through the filter (no bubbles in pump basket, indicating no suction side issues)
In "Recirculate" mode, air in the system from turning the multiport valve quickly dissipates and quiet operation returns.

From this, I surmise the water passing through the multiport valve is some how sucking air in through a leak.
Thought I'd pose this here, as several threads seem to categorically rule out air bubbles being created at the filter.
(Since it is under pressure, and not suction.)

Also, to lube or not to lube the spider gasket? found some pretty good sounding advice here, which suggests no lube on the spider:
http://swimming.about.com/od/poolandspamaintenance/qt/swimpoolvalve.htm
 
I wouldn't go as far as saying it is impossible, but it is astoundingly unlikely that anything that could happen in the multi-port would ever cause air to get into the system. It is amazingly easy for air to be getting in on the suction side and not be visually obvious in the pump basket, which is by far the more likely possibility.
 
I don't mean to be difficult, but why would a suction side leak disappear when the valve is set in "Recirculate"?
The only change is that it bypasses the filter media.

I should also mention that things seemed OK, and the problem appeared after backwashing the filter today.
I imagine there is some grit in the spider valve, but it was getting dark, so it comes apart in the morning.
 
Obviously any noise in the filter will stop as soon as you bypass the filter. Likewise air trapped in the filter will stop coming out of the returns as soon as you bypass the filter. Nothing there provides any clue to what is happening, nor does your proposed explanation make any sense at all. One far more likely possibility is that air could be in the filter for some other reason, such as a pressure side leak that lets air into the filter while the pump is off. Another possibility is a suction side leak you can't see combined with some misunderstanding or misdescription of the symptoms.

Do you have any air bubbles coming out of the returns? Or is there just a noise in the filter? When you open the air bleed on the filter does air come out (and then water) or does only water come out? If you bleed the air out of the filter, does more air accumulate without the pump ever turning off, or does the pump need to turn off for more air to appear in the filter?
 
Exactly the kind of info I am looking for! So, air in the filter itself, not necessarily coming in under pressure. Thanks.

I will still look to the spider first, but the leak is likely happening while the pump is off then, and air gets into the filter.
 
So tell me more about this "air bleed on the filter"....I don't seem to have one on my Hayward Pro Series sand filter. Is there a trick to finding that?

I have the CompuPool replacement SWG, which allows me to see the bubbles right away as they stream by on the way back to the pool. The air seems to accumulate a bit in the SWG, which is my cause for alarm.
I ran a few cycles of alternating high speed, low speed pumping, and the air bubble sounds seem to diminish over time. Low speed seems to get bubbles out of the filter and into the SWG, while high speed sweeps them out of the SWG and into the pool.

I tried turning the pump off, and it did not increase the amount of air in the filter.

Tell me this, is it by design that air gets into the filter when I backwash? When I cycle the valve, water runs down the waste pipe even when not under pressure while the valve is between positions or in "Waste" setting.
 
LotusRacerX said:
So tell me more about this "air bleed on the filter"....I don't seem to have one on my Hayward Pro Series sand filter. Is there a trick to finding that?

I have the CompuPool replacement SWG, which allows me to see the bubbles right away as they stream by on the way back to the pool. The air seems to accumulate a bit in the SWG, which is my cause for alarm.
I ran a few cycles of alternating high speed, low speed pumping, and the air bubble sounds seem to diminish over time. Low speed seems to get bubbles out of the filter and into the SWG, while high speed sweeps them out of the SWG and into the pool.

I tried turning the pump off, and it did not increase the amount of air in the filter.

Tell me this, is it by design that air gets into the filter when I backwash? When I cycle the valve, water runs down the waste pipe even when not under pressure while the valve is between positions or in "Waste" setting.
Click to expand...

Is your Multivalve side mount? If so the bleed valve is on top of the filter housing.

When you turn the multivalve to backwash and such, the water will go down to the inlet level.

When you run your pump at normal speed and in filter position is the basket on the pump full of water? Do you have rough churning water? During the initial prime you will, but I'm asking if after it runs a few minutes what is it like? Im asking you this because this all seems so similar to my Ecostar problem, and that was because I had two 1 1/2" pipes going into a 1 1/2" tee and then into the pump. My pump was starving. A 2" tee and 2" line into the pump solved this issue.
Before this change, my pump would run well in recirculate, but as soon as it was put through any real pressure it could not get enough water volume into the inlet.

Hope this helps.
 
Valve is on top of the filter, so no bleed...bummer. No churn in the filter basket. I even redid the basket lid gasket. Motor was recently changed, so those gaskets are fresh still. Will check to see if it will allow 2" input pipe.

Seems with the inlet pipe at a higher level than the outlet, the air can get trapped up there for awhile and churn around.

It is possible that I don't always stick around to wait for the bubbles to make it out of the filter top....Now that I am trying to use the 2-speed pump at the low speed, the bubbles are able to get out of the filter head, and threaten to accumulate in the SWG, since the flow is not enough to clear them through.

I may try to solve it by automating the HI/LO switch to be on HI for the first 15 minutes, and then go to LO, when the bubbles are cleared.
 
LotusRacerX said:
......air bubbles can be heard running through the filter....]
Click to expand...

I've read through this post several times and I can't find any description of visible bubbles. The only thing I read is bubbles that are being heard, as quoted above. Are you seeing bubbles come out your return ports about the same time you hear them in the filter?
 

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The visible bubbles accumulate in the SWG, making me fear that enough air might get in there to cause it to arc and self destruct the SWG unit.

I ran the pump on low all day today with only minimal bubbles accumulating. Seems to be a very long bleed process for the filter after each backwash, until I figure this out.

And yes, bubbles also come out the jets into the pool. Sometimes even when bubbles cannot be observed in the SWG sightglass.
They diminish over time, but when I returned home today and ran the pump at high speed, bubbles both cleared the SWG and could be heard swishing about the filter head.
 
When you turn the pump off do you hear bubbles rising in the filter? There could be a leak in the valve that only leaks when the pump is off. This fills the filter with air and it is slowly purged out of the filter when the pump runs. Have you run the pump long enough on high speed to see if the bubbles disappear?
 
I've got no bubbles in the strainer basket, bubbles in the filter, which pass through the SWG, and into the pool from the inlets.

Guess I could rebuild the pump seals, but I just changed the pump recently, so they should be fresh.

I've been pumping bubbles for about a month now. Has not really changed much.
 
If the drain plug on the impeller housing of the pump is leaking you'll never see any bubbles in the pump basket. (I'm not sure what equipment you have since it's not in yoru signature.) Also there have been instances where there was a suction side leak that would seal off either under less than normal suction or more than normal suction (i.e. putting the multiport in recirc).
 
Lot of work today,
Changed drain plugs on pump ( no change )
Replaced Pump Seal (no change)
Inspected pump components ( they looked ok )
remove suction side Jandy valve cover and put water jet in suction line ( no change )
Did bucket test and not really that much water loss ( hard to tell its been windy )
i guess it's time to spend some money and call a Pro !!!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Hello,
Not sure where your at on getting the air cleared out, but I also have a CompuPool CPSC48 SWCG. Overall I'm happy with it. I do get an air bubble in the cell when I run on low. I've had a bubble the length of the cell with maybe an 1/8 of an inch of the plates exposed. When I run the pump on high it clears out in less than a minute. My flow rate on high is 53gpm and low is about 20gpm.

Have you tried rebedding/washing the sand in the filter.

I do have a cartridge filter and now multi function valve.
 
Hi,

Can someone please confirm that I should not be seeing air bubbles in my pump basket? I have the variable speed Viron P320 - and I can see them at all speeds. I also see them floating around in the SWC cell housing.

Kind regards,
Milan.
 

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