Used sand filter - avail. options & your recommendations

[y_not]

I'm shopping around the area for used sand filters + a pump. The pickin's around here are pretty slim to say the least.

I happened upon this unit.
[attachment=0:9bor11rs]SandFilter-Redmond250.jpg[/attachment:9bor11rs]

Trying to figure out what it is, as it has an unusual 2 part bolt on design on the multiport valve.
I came across this: Sta-Rite CristalFlo II
If you look at the PDF: here
The 1'st pg. has a nice big pic of it, kinda low res, but doable.

Do you think that's it?
Are these any good and are they really a Pentair, or not really?
How are the pumps and what should it sound like when I go to listen to it?

I know what pumps sound like, but my experience has always been with really big, obnoxiously noisy ones that are just ANNOYING to say the least.

BTW. They want $250 for it, pool comes with it. LOL

Thanks.

 

[BigIslandPoolService]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

Aloha Y-not!

That looks like it is probably the smaller version (maybe 100 lbs. of sand)...but that size can handle your pool just fine. Since you know nothing about the inside, you may want to verify that it actually DOES HAVE enough sand in it...I've seen some crazy situations like just 2" of sand in the filter! It should be more than half full, and no more than 2/3 full of sand.

As far as the pump goes...that cannot be a "rugged" pump (brochures and PDF files are written by marketing department, not pool guys), but if it runs and pumps water without squealing and screeching, then it will be fine too. It doesn't hurt to run water through the sand at a slow pace (like your 750 gph pump). So if this one is useable, you can choose to use whichever pump works better for your needs.

Hope this helps!

Aloha!

 

[y_not]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

I actually got the model number from the owner. It's an Waterford JSAL17D-06
Specs to follow. Took a bit of digging, but I found the manual for it, it's dated 1999 and Sta-Rite doesn't even have the Waterford brand anymore.
Could it really be that old? Or did they make these well into the late 2000's maybe?

Manual Link: Waterford PDF Manual /w Specs

According to the specs, it shipped with an 3/4hp pump. Specs on the filter are: 1.57 sqFT at 31.5GPM, requiring 150lbs of sand.
That's not over sized, correct?

The amount of sand they have in it isn't going to matter, as there's no way I'm hauling that thing full of sand just to save a few bones on sand. I'll dump it and haul it empty, plus it'll give me chance to inspect the laterals.
I'm really thinking if it's this old, the pump will need new bearings, maybe bushings and a capacitor if it has one. Doesn't make it too cost effective.
So it's a pretty mediocre, lame pump, even considering it's a Sta-Rite/Pentair?
I doubt I'll be able to talk 'em down much on it. If it's that old, I'd give 'em $100 for the lot, basically buy the pool & throw in the pump+filter for a few bones extra. But I doubt they'll go for it. They obviously think it's worth WAAYYY more than it is.

I imagine this would all be a HUGE step up from buying the 2650GPM Intex unit. I hate proprietary all-in-one garbage, but, well... it is what it is /w Intex. It's affordable @ $190 and does the job without being horrible and doesn't break the bank. They got ya' over a barrel.

Would I be better off just putting my money into something like this?
*These are just random affordable parts, didn't really research them.
18" Sandman Sand Filter with 1 hp pump $295
Or go modular so I can choose a 2-speed pump and have more choice over what I'm buying+specing out.
Dynamo Pump 1 HP 2 Spd. $230
Pentair Filter - SD-35 Sand Dollar $210 1.4 Sq. Ft. / 100lb
Or there's this, the current model of what they have, but I only get a single speed pump.
Sta-Rite 18" A/G Sand Filter + 1 HP Pump $390 1.8 Sq Ft. / 150lb
That's $450 minus plumbing and a cord to hardwire in. But if it means it'll last longer and I'll get more life and better filtration out of it, not to mention scaling up to larger pools. As I'm going to be replacing this pool either sometime this season or next spring /w something in the 15-20k gal range. Then yeah, I'd pony up (double-up actually) and do it.
But then again, it appears that the bottom most one would only allow me to barely go up to a 10k gal pool.

Thoughts?


HAHA, funny on using my dippy Intex, "hamster in a squirrel cage" run pump. Cute!!
It can barely pull water out of my pool as it is. That thing's a disgrace to the word pump & the word pool. LOL
But I hear what you mean on the theory of operation.

 

[y_not]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

Meeehhhh... that was a HUGE reply for busy folks.
I'll simplify it down to easy to spot questions and short-ish sub descriptions.

#1 - Is there a 3rd party system that's a step up from Intex's 2650gpm sand filter+pump, that's say, under $500 or so?
#1a - IE. Would a Cristal-Flo/Sand Dollar filter+pump be a BIG STEP UP in filtration & longevity overall?

If so, any recommendations?

Requirements:
I'm going to be getting a big 'ol 20 footer (or so) pool as soon as one pops up on the market again here. So I really want to make sure it's sized for that, at the very least the pump. Filters are easier to come by and don't wear out too quickly. Used pumps always seem to be abused, destroyed or just plain noisy awful junk!!

My neighbor is a Fussy Nelly and likes to call the cops, build fences where she shouldn't, just to keep us "away", etc.. So I need to have a quiet pump if ya' get my drift. But it doesn't need to be "whisper quiet".
I saw mas985 talking about a Pentair SuperFlo 1.5hp 2-speed pump that's really nice, quiet & pretty affordable. Plus it sips power on low speed. It's a bit, just a bit rich for my blood. But if it's something that'll last for 10 years, maybe 7-8yrs as opposed to what I'd get with a Cristal-Flo/Sand Dollar combo, then I'm all for it.

Last set of questions this round.
#2 - What really are the differences in the pumps I'm speaking of? Longevity, noise, build quality, bushing or bearing design, brush less or brushes, etc..
#2b - I assume the Intex pump isn't even in the same solar system as "any" of these, y/n? Silly question, but I'm asking anyway.
*$200 bones ain't bad, but if it dies in 2yrs... forget it! I understand the concept of quality, but I have a budget too. But I'm terrible at budgeting, lack of interest really, so who knows!

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

You would not need the Superflo 1.5 HP. I have the 1HP and there is a 3/4HP. I would think the 3/4 HP (which is 115V) 2-speed Superflo would be fine for your upgrade.

I do not know anything about all the AG pumps / combos / etc.

 

[y_not]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

You would not need the Superflo 1.5 HP. I have the 1HP and there is a 3/4HP. I would think the 3/4 HP (which is 115V) 2-speed Superflo would be fine for your upgrade.

Even accounting for a 20-22k gal pool in the very, very short term?
Is there a large reduction in head loss on an AGP vs IGP setup, being that the pipe run is typically much shorter on an AGP?
What is the low speed on a 3/4HP, does it run something like a 1/2hp or 1/4hp pump when on low? Or does it not work that way? I know HP isn't in direct correlation to the amount of flow or suction power, that also has to do with the impeller design, etc..

I'm planning on eventually burying the pipe and putting it maybe 10ft away or so. But maybe not, depends where I put the pool.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

Like JB said, a 3/4 hp 2-speed would be fine for even a 25k gal pool. Low speed is 1725 rpm and about 1/6th to 1/8th hp, but since the head will be much lower that's all you need.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

Given you said above you were looking for a 20' pool ... at 5' deep that is still only 12,000 gallons. So not sure where you are now coming up with 20-25k gallons.

In any case, like Bama said, you will have a low head loss, and even if you put the pump 10' away and buried the pipes, the 3/4HP Superflo would be fine.

You need to realize that the HP is not the only factor. An IG pump 3/4HP is usually more powerful than an AG 3/4HP pump. The wet ends are designed for different head loss, so the IG will move more water than an AG (usually).

 

[BigIslandPoolService]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

Aloha y-not!

OK, here's my perspective...even when you get your bigger pool, the gallonage will still be considered a "small pool"...so you don't need a powerful pump, as others have pointed out. Also, since your pump will be below water level, you won't have any problems with priming...That said, here's what I've had experience with if you want to keep it on the cheap side.

Look for a brand new Hayward SP 15922S pump. That is a 1 HP 2-speed pump...extremely inexpensive, more robust than the Pentair equivalent (I have installed both, and while I love Pentair and speak highly of their pumps, in this case, the Hayward Kicks Butt!), nearly silent in LO speed, powerful for vacuuming in HI speed, and it just sips electricity on the low speed! All of these pumps that I've installed have done their job perfectly. Even when placed 12" ABOVE water level. Amazing pump for the money. One caveat...it is 115V only--no voltage variability, due to the rocker switch on the back cover (LO, OFF, HI). Also it comes with a plug, so you'll need either a socket near your pool or you'll have to rewire it watertight with your own wiring.

Filters are a tossup. Sand filters are easy to maintain...you don't need a huge one...just big enough to handle your vacuuming at HI speed (normal 3450 RPM). maybe just a 100 lb. 24" model? I can't seem to find any rating for that pump on HI speed, but I would guess that it is easily going to be 60 gpm. So get a filter that will handle that flow rate...on LO speed your pressure gauge will show a real low reading (it's GREAT for filtering), and while vacuuming, I wouldn't be upset if it went up as high as 25 psi. But the lower your reading on the pressure gauge while vacuuming, the better your sand filter will work.

You can't go wrong with that Hayward pump...it's a real workhorse that keeps your electrical bills in their place--reallly important out here where electricity is 46 cents per kilowatt-hour!

Aloha!

 

[y_not]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

Given you said above you were looking for a 20' pool ... at 5' deep that is still only 12,000 gallons. So not sure where you are now coming up with 20-25k gallons.

HAHA, yeah, well.... apparently I was seriously out of it.
I know for a fact the nearly 20k gal rating was correct, so I had the size wrong. I remember it was a massive pool, as my aunt and uncle had a monstrous AGP when I was a kid. It was a permanent install type, long before Intex ever hit the scene. Mom confirms it was huge, thereby eliminating the "everything seems 5x bigger when you're a kid" effect.

I showed her the one I was thinking about buying, she said it was at least as big as theirs and she recalls it being around 24/25ft. or so. I measured it out in our massive backyard, massive for a city lot in the burbs, it's just about an acre lot. The pool was going to take up a much larger area than I expected, having measured out 18-20ft pools. It was a Hayward Esther Williams, round pool.
I wanted to buy it, but by the time I got the money, they had re-listed it, dropped the price by almost half because they'd dismantled it and torn the liner in the process. Well whoop-de-do on the liner as you have to replace 'em anyway. But the fact it was torn down meant I couldn't inspect it assembled for strength and how well it had held up during use & age. So I passed.

I think I was really being petty & OCD, as the parts speak for themselves. Probably easier to see any damage or rust if it's apart anyway. In hindsight, I should have bought it. It was only a whoppin' $500!! Came /w a pump & sand filter too.

Oh well, is what it is. I'll just have to wait for another.
Curious, do you think I can haul an AGP that size in the back of a 90's Ford Exploder? Dismantled... of course.
Might be able to convince dad to let me use the roof too.

You need to realize that the HP is not the only factor. An IG pump 3/4HP is usually more powerful than an AG 3/4HP pump. The wet ends are designed for different head loss, so the IG will move more water than an AG (usually).

Yeah, I knew all of those things have an impact on the end "power" of the pump. I understand physics quite well, just not math and plumbing :blah: . Sorry mas985.

WOW! Cool, I didn't even think that they'd actually build them differently on the wet head. That's cool!!

Thanks for the info jblizzle.

 

[y_not]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

Aloha y-not!

OK, here's my perspective...even when you get your bigger pool, the gallonage will still be considered a "small pool"...so you don't need a powerful pump, as others have pointed out.

Aloha! to you as well, BIPS.
LOL :-D

So what's a "large pool"?
My aunt's last house had a 40k-50k gal IGP pool. It was a stinkin' monster for a backyard pool.
Is that "large"? Or are we talking public pool, or even Olympic 800k gal MONSTER here? LOL

Which brings me to this. The "Hydraulics 101" article by mas985, says that for a 20k gal pool I should have 3.7 sq-ft sand filter. That's HUUGE!!!
I know this because my aunt's pool had a Sta-Rite System 3 sand filter and I'm pretty sure it was the larger of the 2. Which meant it held something like 350lbs of sand and was about a 3.7 sq-ft filtration area. Her pool stayed quite clean! We won't count the bottom, that was due to bad jets and a failing pump with bad bearings. Still seemed to HAUL on the water output though. SHEESH!! That thing was a MONSTER!! The wet head was about the size of a smaller serving platter and the whole unit from front to back, including basket was probably about 2-1/2 ft.
But the water stayed clear, just stuff settled on the bottom from bad circulation.

According to Mas's article, her pool would have need 3 of those units. YIKES!!! That would have taken up an entire small bedroom, which was about the size of the pool house. Yeah, it had an actual "pool house". LOL

Surely that can't be right?

Look for a brand new Hayward SP 15922S pump. That is a 1 HP 2-speed pump...extremely inexpensive, more robust than the Pentair equivalent (I have installed both, and while I love Pentair and speak highly of their pumps, in this case, the Hayward Kicks Butt!),

So if I'm reading you right, the Hayward is good at my budget, the Pentair is probably better if I had the money to blow. Yeah??

..nearly silent in LO speed, powerful for vacuuming in HI speed, and it just sips electricity on the low speed! All of these pumps that I've installed have done their job perfectly. Even when placed 12" ABOVE water level. Amazing pump for the money.

I thought Hayward's pumps were absolute garbage for the most part, cheaply made and don't last long. I know we all like our "brands", but some stuff is just.

What's the deal /w the bad blood toward Hayward?
You say you have installed some, however many, how long have some been in service? What's their life like before they either fail/out-right die, or start to buzz & howl?

One caveat...it is 115V only--no voltage variability, due to the rocker switch on the back cover (LO, OFF, HI).

Ha, that's OK, in fact, I'm relieved. I wasn't looking forward to wiring 220v all the way from the front of the house, to the back. Oy'vey!!
But I was going to do it if need be, since I know 220v is way more efficient on high draw equipment such as a power hungry pump.

Also it comes with a plug, so you'll need either a socket near your pool or you'll have to rewire it watertight with your own wiring.

No biggie, we all know how to wire things around here.

Filters are a tossup. Sand filters are easy to maintain...you don't need a huge one...just big enough to handle your vacuuming at HI speed (normal 3450 RPM). maybe just a 100 lb. 24" model?

Has to be sized to the pump, right? How do you determine that anyway? Based on flow rate it sounds like?

I can't seem to find any rating for that pump on HI speed, but I would guess that it is easily going to be 60 gpm.

Neither could I, it's like that model doesn't exist as far as Hayward is concerned.

Would it be the same on high as the single speed model listed here?

So get a filter that will handle that flow rate...

So the filter's flow rate should be above the max flow rate of the pump, or something different than that?

on LO speed your pressure gauge will show a real low reading (it's GREAT for filtering), and while vacuuming, I wouldn't be upset if it went up as high as 25 psi.

WOW!! That high huh?

But the lower your reading on the pressure gauge while vacuuming, the better your sand filter will work.

I presume this has to do with the pump BLASTING water through the sand bed at too high of a rate, so the particulates don't have time to get trapped in the top cake. Yeah?
So long as it's under the filters max flow rate, it's OK? Or no?

You can't go wrong with that Hayward pump...it's a real workhorse that keeps your electrical bills in their place--reallly important out here where electricity is 46 cents per kilowatt-hour!

Yeah, we're pretty stupid high here too. I still haven't really figured out how to read the power company's bill, or the data on their website. I swear I'm not dumb, far from it, it's just there's a lot of data there and I don't know how they add it all up and what. Delivery fees, taxes, other fees that go up/down based on how much you consume, etc.. All on top of the $/KWh rate. Do you add it all, then divide it? Plus it's going to go up since whatever you're adding will eat more power, so then the delivery fee and all that jazz goes up. Oy'vey! I have been meaning to call them, but I keep putting it off.

I so want to shove that Wired magazine article in their face, as well as my Dr's lab, that show how these industries can simplify their bills. UGH!

So Aloha is hello & goodbye? I recall that being the case... so weird. HAHA

 

[pwrstrk]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

I have a 1hp 2 speed matrix and feel its a great pump. No problems with it. Low speed is very quiet and efficient. The lower hp also filters better in my opinion. I don't even have to do a complete turnover everyday. Water is perfect. I'll run it on high for an hour or so after adding some bleach then back to low.

Just my 2 cents.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[y_not]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

pwrstrk,
Your 2 cents are very much appreciated. Thank you!

I read in some user reviews that one user said the low speed moved almost no water and the high speed was noisier than her old pump. Something tells me hers was bad out of the box.

On the flip side, another user said theirs, on low speed, moves about as much water as the Intex 0.95HP pump and nearly inaudible. The user also said that on high it was amazing how much water it moved compared to the Intex.

I have never seen that Intex pump run, the biggest they have for the sand filter. I take it that's not a bad thing that it runs at that rate on low?

How long have you had yours?
I can totally understand running it on low for better filtration, unless you have a monster filter. But are you able to vacuum OK? Or do things pass through?

What about when you have a whole bunch of people over and it gets really dirty, so you run it on high to clear it up faster. Does that not work?

Sorry, lots of questions. HAHA
You all are great. Thanks

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

Just run on low for general circulation/filtering. And run on high when you need to vacuum, backwash or want to move more water through the filter.

It is not as complicated as you seem to be trying to make it.

 

[linen]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

I read in some user reviews that one user said the low speed moved almost no water and the high speed was noisier than her old pump. Something tells me hers was bad out of the box.

That is not my experience. On low, I am even able to run my solar panels (when my filter is clean). On high, it is a beast at moving water and not as loud a my previous 1 hp powerflo single speed.

I have never seen that Intex pump run, the biggest they have for the sand filter. I take it that's not a bad thing that it runs at that rate on low?

That intex is a good combo for small pools. Yes, it is not a bad thing that the matrix runs that rate, since it's power draw is low on low.

Which brings me to this. The "Hydraulics 101" article by mas985, says that for a 20k gal pool I should have 3.7 sq-ft sand filter. That's HUUGE!!! ...Surely that can't be right?

Generally, yes it is.

 

[pwrstrk]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

Just as Jblizzle said. It's not rocket science. Just play with run times to your water is how you like it. Hayward did tell me on low the 1hp moves 20-30gph at 20ft of head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BigIslandPoolService]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

Aloha friends,

That last message, I think he meant 20-30 gallons per MINUTE...but you probably figured that out...

This is a bit embarrasing...a pool guy having to ask this question...but I don't think it seems very accurate to describe the specs of filtering area on a sand filter with a "square foot" measurement...seems like it should be cubic volume of sand...different from a cartridge filter...

What do you guys think?

Aloha!

 

[pwrstrk]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

Sorry your right I meant minute. Not perfect.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

It is just the cross-sectional area of the filter diameter ... it would be simpler so just go by the diameter probably, but I do not think the volume would be as useful.

I mean a VERY tall skinny filter will not be able to flow as much water as a short fat one right? Would it filter as well at the same flow rate? I don't know.

 

[y_not]

Re: Looking for used sand filter - questions.

Just run on low for general circulation/filtering. And run on high when you need to vacuum, backwash or want to move more water through the filter.

It is not as complicated as you seem to be trying to make it.

Yup, figured that out long before I posted. I just wanted to know more details as to how you size the filter to the pump or viz-a-viz. That's all.

Yeah, sounds like I'm over complicating it, but I just ask lot of questions which makes it seem that way. Even nuclear physics is really really simple, once you boil down all the theory and variables into practical use and application.